178 réponses à ce sujet

[alperez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why is TIM suddenly so concerned with saving Cerberus? One book ago he was ready to die just to make sure Grayson didn't escape from containment.

People change, characters grow in sometimes surprising and unexpected ways, his indoctrination is affecting him more now than ever, writers don't understand consitency, take your pick.

Or simply.

Just because he was one way at one time doesn't mean he will always be that one way, Vader was evil inc. someone who would do anything for the emperor and yet in the end it was the very same Vader who actuall killed the emperor, character inconsitency or character growth, you be the judge.

[Ryzaki]

GodWood wrote...

dantares83 wrote...
y everybody hates Sanders?

She's a Mary Sue

And Shepard's not? 

[alperez]

laecraft wrote...


*groan* Will the Alliance get off Cerberus at least for a month? This is getting tiresome. Build your own shadow organization, save humanity from the Collectors, and then expose yourself. Stop resting on someone else's laurels!

Really, this is making me laugh.

*

Anderson: The Reapers are coming!

The Council: The Reapers, what Reapers? Never heard of them. Where's the evidence?

Anderson: Knew you'd ask for it. I have the evidence. Here's the avatar's corpse.

Turian Councilor: Looks like a geth to me.

Asari Councilor: Yes, definitely a geth.

Salarian Councilor: *is silent as usual*

Anderson: What do you want? What evidence is good enough?

The Council: Expose Cerberus. We want them gone. They're a menace to galactic stability. They're making humanity too powerful, and we can't allow that. Destroy them, and then we'll believe in Reapers. Maybe.

So creating a shadow organisation to do your bidding only for that organisation to evolve into something you may not have wanted and then wanting to shutdown that organisation or destroy it means that the alliance is wrong how exactly?

Just because at one time they served your needs doesn't mean you should be in bed with them for eternity, turn a blind eye when they do things you may not agree with or allow the fact that the shadow organistion you may have created are now more trouble than their worth and if people found out the truth about you and them it could cause problems.

Seriously have you any insight into how governments handle problems when something that originally benefited them becomes either an inconvieniance or downright embarrassment.

I get your a cerberus loyalist but unhappy with how things seem to be shaping up but if you didn't see it coming this way then perhaps you need to visit an optician.

Just because they helped with the collectors doesn't make them good or make every action they've ever taken be the right one and since we still don't know why exactly they did help or what their motivations where i'm amazed that you seem blind to every single shred of evidence that they are and always have been the bad guys.

Loyalty is one thing, blind loyalty is just plain asking for trouble.

Modifié par alperez, 13 juillet 2011 - 07:38 .

[alperez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sorry, but the ME2 team doesn't have the credibility of the folks who wrote Darth Vader's arch.

So because the writers are not as good as Mr. lucas's writers then what they write is immediately wrong?

The thought process is exactly the same regardless of the skill or lack of it of the people writing the story, characters behave erratically, they grow and do things we don't always like or agree with, that the writers haven't shown this to your or my complete acceptance doesn't change the intent or the outcome.

[hkstuned]

Could that be gillian on the cover of the book? Too bad... I always imagined her not to be so good looking... But its mass effect after all... eye candy ftw

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Not everyone is willing to swallow whatever they are fed.

I'm guessing you also think Liara's completely rewritten character in ME2 was just "growth" and not a clumsy rewrite.

I can say the same about TIM's skills when it comes to be Cerberus' leader.

[Ryzaki]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Shepard's only a sue if you play Paragon...

Uh...no. Renegade Shepard's equally a sue.  He's just a Jerk Sue. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juillet 2011 - 07:51 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

How so? Was he written differently in another game I've never heard about?

I understand you are trying to take a jab at TIM (and me) with this post, but it is coming across as very clumsy.

Please explain this to me.

How is TIM's character inconsistently written?

He can't keep his cells in check if his life depended on it, for one.

And in the books, it's said that the man can keep his cool and is good at analyzing facial expressions to his advantage, yet none of that appears in the game. Quite the opposite, really. 

He's just as inconsistent as Liara when it comes to personal information.

[Foolsfolly]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Can the books stop revolve around Cerberus for once? It's boring when they're focusing on only that part of the Mass Effect universe.

Not to mention that it sounds almost exactly like the plot in Retribution.

Not to mention that it makes almost all the information about Cerberus stuck in other media. There's the origin of Cerberus and the Illusive Man in comic books. There's Liara working for Cerberus in the comics. There's all these experiements and apparent war with David Anderson in the books. The Human-Reaper hybrid is in the books.

I mean, this is a major player in the game series. And if you just played the games all you know about Cerberus is they killed a group with a Thresher Maw, husk'd a colony, tried to have rachni and thorian troopers, and had the Illusive Man give you 4 briefings for missions.

I mean, let's say you're a PS3 player and you've only had access to Mass Effect 2. Being a video game series you don't feel the need to track down multiple comic and prose books to tell the story of the game series. And when ME3 comes out will this only ME2 playing fellow be able to reconigze Cerberus?

Afterall, ME2 shows Cerberus in such a good light. They're heroes. A touch ruthless but against a ruthless and powerful foe.

In the books? They're horrible evil monsters. And ME3 has them has enemies which makes me believe they're following the books' lead. It'll be a huge turn of face for many players.

EDIT:

They also make the Illusive Man less elusive.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 13 juillet 2011 - 08:20 .

[Ryzaki]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Uh...no. Renegade Shepard's equally a sue.  He's just a Jerk Sue. 

Not hardly. Renegade Shepard doesn't get any "get out of jail free cards" or I should say, "Get loyalty for free cards". He also winds up with fewer cameos and makes all the wrong decisions and trusts the wrong people (and also mistrusts the wrong people).

Uh...renegade Shepard can be the nastiest bastard in the game and still get all loyalty. You get no reasonable punishments for being a rude bastard. He can punch a reporter on public television and all he gets is halfhearted reprimand. No one actually does anything to him. So yes he gets just as many loyalty for free cards as paragon Shepard gets if not more. And he can get as many cameos as long as he fulfills the requirements. None of the cameos require you have a certain number of paragon points. Just that you made a decision that horror of horrors may have given you a couple of paragon points. Oh noes. (and to further drive this home you had a renegade response for ALL of those cameos. They were not just restricted to shepard being a saint of purity.) Plus 90% of cameos sucked. 

Also where did Renegade mistrust/trust the wrong people? In ME3? We don't know all the effects yet so we can't say who it was right/wrong to trust/mistrust. 

Him not getting as many benefits as paragon Shepard doesn't make him any less of a sue. It...really really doesn't. 

Paragon Shepard at least is nice enough to justify people wanting to talk to him and change. Renegade gets similar results while being a jerkass. Hell renegade Shep can romance Tali after tramatizing one of her Quarian friends and letting another die. So yeah he's a sue. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juillet 2011 - 08:36 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Not hardly. Renegade Shepard doesn't get any "get out of jail free cards" or I should say, "Get loyalty for free cards". He also winds up with fewer cameos and makes all the wrong decisions and trusts the wrong people (and also mistrusts the wrong people).

The only loyalties you can't gain automatically are Samara's, Thane's and Tali's. You can gain the rest no matter the outcome.

And even a Renegade can gain those loyalties.

[alperez]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

[/quote]

Not everyone is willing to swallow whatever they are fed.

I'm guessing you also think Liara's completely rewritten character in ME2 was just "growth" and not a clumsy rewrite.



[/quote]

So now your argument is that we shouldn't accept the storyline we may be given because we don't like it or agree with it?

I'm sorry i find this attitude hard to comphrehend, we're given a storyline which at times is full of potential plot holes and character inconsitencies and we accept most of these but in regard to TIM and Cerberus a storyline we still don't have the full details of, if it goes a certain way we shouldn't accept it because we don't like or agree with it.

Have bioware at times written an inconsitent narrative that in parts requires leaps of faith and suspension of belief, well of course they have, have they shoehorned events and characters into situations to explain this narrative, again of course. Should we completely abandon the narrative because of these inconsitencies and character arcs, well thats up to the indvidual.

For me it makes sense where they may be going with TIM and Cerberus and i find no more glaring inconsitencies than i have with other characters and events so far, for others not so much.  If you disagree so vehemently with how they seem to be heading in regard to TIM and Cerberus you have the option not to continue or to vent those frustrations however you wish. If you want a perfect story where every single act makes sense to you where characters do exactly what you wish them to and behave in exacty the manner you want them to, then you have the option to write that particular fanfic yourself, otherwise your stuck with the narrative you'll be given and it will in the end make perfect sense or not.

As for Liara's rewrite, no i wasn't happy with it, it didn't fit into how i imagined the character would grow and wasn't something i was completely on board with. However LOSB fleshes it out that bit more and it makes that bit more sense, as does any character growth the more info you have on that character.

It didn't turn me off the Liara character completely and she is still one of my favs throughout mass effect.

[Ryzaki]

laecraft wrote...
Zaeed. Saphra is speaking about Zaeed, The Price of Revenge, and that cringeworthy scene where a Paragon can get Zaeed's loyalty without paying the price.

If they were gonna do that they should've let paragons leave him to burn regardless of SM status. And paragons aren't the only ones who get this treatement Tali trusts renegade Shepards without them giving her the data and with them vocally supporting Cerberus infront of her (Cerberus isn't that bad). Hell even if they hand Veetor over to Cerberus and let Reager die they can get her loyalty. So...yeah. It certinaly isn't a paragon syndrome. It's a Shepard thing. Just like renegade Shepard potentially not recruiting Garrus in ME1 (saying he doesn't want a turian) yet he still gives Shep's racist ass the Thannix (a turian weapon). So...yeah. Cry me a river. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juillet 2011 - 08:55 .

[Foolsfolly]

Ryzaki wrote...

laecraft wrote...
Zaeed. Saphra is speaking about Zaeed, The Price of Revenge, and that cringeworthy scene where a Paragon can get Zaeed's loyalty without paying the price.

If they were gonna do that they should've let paragons leave him to burn regardless of SM status. And paragons aren't the only ones who get this treatement Tali trusts renegade Shepards without them giving her the data and with them vocally supporting Shepard infront of them. Hell even if they had Veetor over to Cerberus and let Veetor die they can get her loyalty. So...yeah. 

I agree with this.

...although why would any Paragon not help Zaeed? ....ok, but who among you can overlook an early AR accuracy upgrade thanks to the AR upgrade in the Renegade path?

Related to the OP's post though....

...if the book shows the Council...won't that set a canon Council?

[Someone With Mass]

laecraft wrote...
Zaeed. Saphra is speaking about Zaeed, The Price of Revenge, and that cringeworthy scene where a Paragon can get Zaeed's loyalty without paying the price.

Eh...Vido gets away in the Paragon ending, but gets roasted in the Renegade.

I don't understand the problem.

Unless it's one of those pathetic Renegade whinings about literally every Paragon action there is, just because it deosn't fit them.

Don't like the Paragon ending? Then go with Renegade. There's literally nothing to talk about.