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#76
Ryzaki

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Foolsfolly wrote...
I agree with this.

...although why would any Paragon not help Zaeed? ....ok, but who among you can overlook an early AR accuracy upgrade thanks to the AR upgrade in the Renegade path?

Related to the OP's post though....

...if the book shows the Council...won't that set a canon Council?

 

Because he would've allowed innocents to die for his vengeance. It's karma. My paragade would've left his ass. Happily. A loose canon with a grudge against Shepard? Last thing he needed on his team. If you can't follow orders you need to go. 

There's an AR upgrade on the renegade path? <_< Blargh. All we paragons get is a Heavy Ammo upgrade. 

#77
alperez

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laecraft wrote...

@alperez: Let's just say that it's clear that the Council's cooperation has its price, and the Alliance is willing to pay it. That price is, of course, the weakening of humanity's position. Cerberus is the only pro-human organization that's not under the Council's heel. No wonder The Council wants to remove them.


Or cerberus are a terrorist organisation that threatens galatic stability and need to be stopped, Potato/potato. The councils job is to protect all species in the galaxy, to allow governments to air their greiviances and put forward their position in a democratic manner. Cerberus want to put humanity above every other species in the galaxy and don't care whatever means they use to acheive this goal, in the real world we call people who do this terrorists and governments treat these organisations accordingly, so what is the council doing thats so very wrong again?

Concerning the moral issues, they're pretty much irrelevant during a galactic war. Define "bad guys" to me. People who get other people killed? People who make sacrifices for the greater good? Shepard's the biggest bad guy in the galaxy. See Bahak. He's the biggest mass murderer in history. He's not the one to judge.


Shepards actions have been unequivocal in their nature, they have had one objective from the beginning to stop the reapers and save every species in the universe , cerberus while perhaps trying to stop the reapers have not been an unequivocal in thier actions, their objective is ultimately to put humanity above every species. Shepard whether you like it or not is the judge, jury and executioner because Shepard is you.

Concerning how their motivations are unclear. Nobody's motivations are clear, we can't read minds, and people change, and so do their motivations. It's the uncertainty we have to deal with. It doesn't matter, anyway. You see any other organization preparing to the war with the Reapers? I don't. Make your pick. Or just sit and wait for the Reapers to arrive.


You see what you wish to see and are blind to every other single possiblity other than the one you prefer, Cerberus motivations were one thing in me1, in me2 according to TIM these motivations changed somewhat, but considering TIm lies we have only his word on this.

We don't know Cerberus are preparing for war with the reapers, thats an assumption you've made based on what TIM told you in me2, considering like i said TIM has a fleeting relationship with the truth at the best of times whether or not this is actually the case is yet to be seen.

Maybe they've been preparing for war with everyone else,. it certainly seems that way considering rather than help Shepard they are hunting Shepard and trying to kill him/her. As for others preparing for war with the reapers did i miss a meeting or isn't that what we're doing in me3.

#78
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Ryzaki wrote...

laecraft wrote...
Zaeed. Saphra is speaking about Zaeed, The Price of Revenge, and that cringeworthy scene where a Paragon can get Zaeed's loyalty without paying the price.

If they were gonna do that they should've let paragons leave him to burn regardless of SM status. And paragons aren't the only ones who get this treatement Tali trusts renegade Shepards without them giving her the data and with them vocally supporting Cerberus infront of her (Cerberus isn't that bad). Hell even if they hand Veetor over to Cerberus and let Reager die they can get her loyalty. So...yeah. 


I've heard you can leave him to die, but only after the mission. The mission always comes first.

#79
Someone With Mass

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Ryzaki wrote...
There's an AR upgrade on the renegade path? <_< Blargh. All we paragons get is a Heavy Ammo upgrade. 


See it from the bright side. It means you can nuke the Colossus later.

#80
Quole

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ANOTHER DAMN NOVEL ABOUT CERBERUS. **** ME. I DONT CARE ABOUT CERBERUS.

#81
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Someone With Mass wrote...

laecraft wrote...
Zaeed. Saphra is speaking about Zaeed, The Price of Revenge, and that cringeworthy scene where a Paragon can get Zaeed's loyalty without paying the price.


Eh...Vido gets away in the Paragon ending, but gets roasted in the Renegade.

I don't understand the problem.

Unless it's one of those pathetic Renegade whinings about literally every Paragon action there is, just because it deosn't fit them.

Don't like the Paragon ending? Then go with Renegade. There's literally nothing to talk about.


I'm referring to the price you have to pay for Zaeed's loyalty - the lives of the workers. Paragon doesn't have to pay it. Some people don't enjoy a choice between leaving the facility workers to burn and gaining Zaeed's loyalty.

#82
Kaiser Shepard

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Meanwhile, people with actual morals choose the Renegade option of revealing the evidence at Tali's trial... and get rewarded with a gameplay disadvantage for doing the right thing.

#83
Ryzaki

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laecraft wrote..
I'm referring to the price you have to pay for Zaeed's loyalty - the lives of the workers. Paragon doesn't have to pay it. Some people don't enjoy a choice between leaving the facility workers to burn and gaining Zaeed's loyalty.


True. 

There should've been a renegade "WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT? DON'T EVER DO THAT **** AGAIN OR I WILL KILL YOU! We do NOT compromise the mission for petty insiginficant grudges!" for renegade Shepard to gain his loyalty as well. 


Someone With Mass wrote...
See it from the bright side. It means you can nuke the Colossus later.

 

True. 


laecraft wrote...
I've heard you can leave him to die, but only after the mission. The mission always comes first.

 

If only. My Sheps won't leave innocents under the thumb of mercs for long so they always do it *before* the SM. :crying:

 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juillet 2011 - 09:02 .


#84
Foolsfolly

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Ryzaki wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
I agree with this.

...although why would any Paragon not help Zaeed? ....ok, but who among you can overlook an early AR accuracy upgrade thanks to the AR upgrade in the Renegade path?

Related to the OP's post though....

...if the book shows the Council...won't that set a canon Council?

 

Because he would've allowed innocents to die for his vengeance. It's karma. My paragade would've left his ass. Happily. A loose canon with a grudge against Shepard? Last thing he needed on his team. If you can't follow orders you need to go. 

There's an AR upgrade on the renegade path? <_< Blargh. All we paragons get is a Heavy Ammo upgrade. 


Yeah, I knew why you'd do the Paragon thing....it's a factory worth of innocents, it's the mission Zaeed accepted, and all that. Thus the elipses.

But that AR upgrade? Man, that's hard for me to pass up. I usually have my Paragons punch Zaeed and then agree to help him for the Upgrade. I don't use Heavy Weapons enough for the HW upgrade to matter much. The only benefit that gives is a quicker path to the Cain. But I can wait for that.

It's metagaming...but damnit, there's more incentive for me personally in Renegade's path. I've only done the Paragon path twice.

#85
Quole

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Meanwhile, people with actual morals choose the Renegade option of revealing the evidence at Tali's trial... and get rewarded with a gameplay disadvantage for doing the right thing.

Actually its not right thing at all but good try.

By giving the evidence you are encouraging the quarians to go to war, making them and the geth vulnerable for when the reapers show up. This is said in game.

Modifié par Quole, 13 juillet 2011 - 09:04 .


#86
Ryzaki

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Foolsfolly wrote...
Yeah, I knew why you'd do the Paragon thing....it's a factory worth of innocents, it's the mission Zaeed accepted, and all that. Thus the elipses.

But that AR upgrade? Man, that's hard for me to pass up. I usually have my Paragons punch Zaeed and then agree to help him for the Upgrade. I don't use Heavy Weapons enough for the HW upgrade to matter much. The only benefit that gives is a quicker path to the Cain. But I can wait for that.

It's metagaming...but damnit, there's more incentive for me personally in Renegade's path. I've only done the Paragon path twice.

 

Ah. 

I'm lucky that I play mostly play adepts and have a thing for the beautiful Locust SMG. :wub: Though my soldier playthrough I did sigh sadly. I only played a soldier about once though. 

I love Paragade. Heart fuzzies mixed with LOL as Shepard owns some thugs. I have to cheat to do it (give myself maxed out paragon and renegade) but it is so much fun. 

#87
Foolsfolly

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Ryzaki wrote...


laecraft wrote..
I'm referring to the price you have to pay for Zaeed's loyalty - the lives of the workers. Paragon doesn't have to pay it. Some people don't enjoy a choice between leaving the facility workers to burn and gaining Zaeed's loyalty.


True. 

There should've been a renegade "WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT? DON'T EVER DO THAT **** AGAIN OR I WILL KILL YOU! We do NOT compromise the mission for petty insiginficant grudges!" for renegade Shepard to gain his loyalty as well. 


Someone With Mass wrote...
See it from the bright side. It means you can nuke the Colossus later.

 

True. 


laecraft wrote...
I've heard you can leave him to die, but only after the mission. The mission always comes first.

 

If only. My Sheps won't leave innocents under the thumb of mercs for long so they always do it *before* the SM. :crying:

 



Ahem....as you can see from my avatar...I'm biased here.

Zaeed's my man. He needs some factory workers to disappear so he can kill the man who shot him in the head, took over his company, and then turned that company into 'goddamn' terrorists...well, I'm sorry factory full of slaves...but you're gone.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 13 juillet 2011 - 09:11 .


#88
Dave of Canada

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*Screw it, never mind. Tired of dealing with it.*

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 juillet 2011 - 09:08 .


#89
Foolsfolly

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Quole wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Meanwhile, people with actual morals choose the Renegade option of revealing the evidence at Tali's trial... and get rewarded with a gameplay disadvantage for doing the right thing.

Actually its not right thing at all but good try.

By giving the evidence you are encouraging the quarians to go to war, making them and the geth vulnerable for when the reapers show up. This is said in game.




Right thing here being the lawful and truthful thing.

Unless you think lying for a friend's father's sake is better than handing over evidence that proves who's responsible for a whole ship full of people's death. And torture of sentient species (geth).

#90
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@alperez: The Council has Spectres working for them. Spectres are terrorists. They stand above the law and can do literally anything they want. No one holds them accountable. Saren blew up a facility which resulted in hundreds of deaths, and the Council was okay with it. They don't care as long as the task is done, the mission always comes first. How is Cerberus worse? They're exactly the same. That's why the Council can't stand Cerberus. Competition.

I know that Cerberus is working against the Reapers from ME2. I know that Cerberus is preparing to war from Retribution. They're researching Reaper tech and sharing the data with others. Their research is the only thing that made OP possible. Cerberus' efforts will give us a chance in the upcoming impossible war yet.

#91
Ryzaki

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Foolsfolly wrote...
Ahem....as you can see from my avatar...I'm not biased here.

Zaeed's my man. He needs some factory workers to disappear so he can kill the man who shot him in the head, took over his company, and then turned that company into 'goddamn' terrorists...well, I'm sorry factory full of slaves...but you're gone.


I did it once but the screaming...and when it stopped. :crying: I broke down and felt so dirty. I killed Zaeed on purpose after that ****. "Sure Zaeed you go ahead and be the 2nd Fireteam leader. Oh you got shot you're dying? Such a shame!" 

#92
Someone With Mass

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laecraft wrote...
I'm referring to the price you have to pay for Zaeed's loyalty - the lives of the workers. Paragon doesn't have to pay it. Some people don't enjoy a choice between leaving the facility workers to burn and gaining Zaeed's loyalty.


That's what Renegade is going for throughout the whole game.

By any means necessary.

I don't like all Paragon choices either, but I dealt with it. Turned the other cheek.

#93
Foolsfolly

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Ryzaki wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
Ahem....as you can see from my avatar...I'm not biased here.

Zaeed's my man. He needs some factory workers to disappear so he can kill the man who shot him in the head, took over his company, and then turned that company into 'goddamn' terrorists...well, I'm sorry factory full of slaves...but you're gone.


I did it once but the screaming...and when it stopped. :crying: I broke down and felt so dirty. I killed Zaeed on purpose after that ****. "Sure Zaeed you go ahead and be the 2nd Fireteam leader. Oh you got shot you're dying? Such a shame!" 


::wipes away tear::

...at...at least he's with his rifle now... killing batarians in hell...

#94
Someone With Mass

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Meanwhile, people with actual morals choose the Renegade option of revealing the evidence at Tali's trial... and get rewarded with a gameplay disadvantage for doing the right thing.


Or you can just go for the lower left red and be done with it. Besides, the admirals will learn the truth once they go through the Alarei themselves, regardless of the outcome.

#95
Foolsfolly

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Meanwhile, people with actual morals choose the Renegade option of revealing the evidence at Tali's trial... and get rewarded with a gameplay disadvantage for doing the right thing.


Or you can just go for the lower left red and be done with it. Besides, the admirals will learn the truth once they go through the Alarei themselves, regardless of the outcome.



That's always bothered me about the final choice of that mission. At no time can Shepard have the ship blown up nor do they have an option to wipe the files.

So lying to the Admiralty (or rather screaming at them with unrelated facts until they agree Tali's innocent without any evidence of such) is ultimately pointless. They'll find out. And then they'll charge Tali with attempting to hide evidence and/or perjury.

#96
Kaiser Shepard

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Meanwhile, people with actual morals choose the Renegade option of revealing the evidence at Tali's trial... and get rewarded with a gameplay disadvantage for doing the right thing.


Or you can just go for the lower left red and be done with it. Besides, the admirals will learn the truth once they go through the Alarei themselves, regardless of the outcome.

But this isn't just about impressing a certain cute quarian for me, nor just Real's experiments: the friends and families of those stationed on the Alarei deserve to know the truth. Making Rael's research too politically volatile for anyone sane to touch would be a pro as well... but then theres crazy Admiral Morrigan.

The intimidate option is weak, though, and pretty much comes down to continuing to yell until you get what you want.

And Quole, the Flotilla getting Balkanized shouldn't be a bad thing at all: those stupid enough to fight the geth die, whereas those able to get over their petty grudges get to live and may even colonize a planet.

#97
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Someone With Mass wrote...

laecraft wrote...
I'm referring to the price you have to pay for Zaeed's loyalty - the lives of the workers. Paragon doesn't have to pay it. Some people don't enjoy a choice between leaving the facility workers to burn and gaining Zaeed's loyalty.


That's what Renegade is going for throughout the whole game.

By any means necessary.

I don't like all Paragon choices either, but I dealt with it. Turned the other cheek.


Well, yes. But I'm not speaking of the Renegade choice, which is completely logical and in character. I mean, the moment you saw Zaeed, you should've seen something like that coming. I'm speaking of that horrible scene, that deus-ex-machina scene where Zaeed gets a divine lighting ball strike him down - I mean, a metal beam pin him down, and he is at your mercy, allowing a pure enough Paragon to influence him and gain his loyalty.

There was no way to foresee it would happen. There was no logical sense for it to happen. A Paragon wanted to keep the workers alive, they made that choice, and they paid the price - Zaeed's loyalty. Then it's suddenly refunded back to them.

The scenes like that break my suspention of disbelief. A Mary Sue is someone blatantly favoured by the author. They don't have to suffer for their choices. This is exactly what happened there.

#98
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Shepard is always a Mary Sue in one form or another.

#99
Massadonious1

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I'm thinking they should of just stuck a timer on that mission. If you can kill fast enough and get to Vido regardless, you can kill him, because he sure as hell wasn't impeded by Zaeed bringing the entire base down around him.

There shouldn't of even been workers that needed saving if he was as good at his job as he supposedly is/was.

#100
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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Meanwhile, people with actual morals choose the Renegade option of revealing the evidence at Tali's trial... and get rewarded with a gameplay disadvantage for doing the right thing.


I don't think there is any gameplay disadvantage. I recall that Tali still unlocks her loyalty power. Though I might be worng. I've only gone down that path once.

With regards to Zaeed, on my Infiltrator I find the heavy weapon ammo upgrade a lot more useful because it means I get the cain a lot earlier (and can use it on the Eclipse smuggly depot). Of-course, I never get it because I never save the workers. Oh well.