178 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

Dave of Canada wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Can you come up with a plausible theory in which TIM is actually working with Shepard in ME3? While sending his troops to kill Shepard...yeah.

Had it not been for the "INDOCRINATED LOL" line and them defending a Reaper...

TIM finds out why Shepard's body was needed by Harbinger, he decides that Shepard poses too much of a security risk to allow that to happen. TIM sends Cerberus after Shepard while using his research and stuff to benefit the Alliance, that way you'd have:

• A morally gray villain without "lol brainwash" coming out of no where.
• People who hate Cerberus can fight them.
• People who respect Cerberus can still like them.
• Keeping the Collector Base has benefits and consequences.

I really like your idea. It could be great, to fight a enemy which isn't indoctrinated. How much I wish that Bioware choose that idea, and not the whole "Cerberus-Reapers alliance" thing.
And I don't understand how the anti-Cerberus can see that is reasonable for TIM to join the Reapers. I don't like Cerberus much, but I never thought that they'd joined the Reapers.

[Foolsfolly]

arne1234 wrote...

I always found it a shame that the illusive men in the novels is the ultimate evil, he's always doing things for the greater good but we never get to see that.

Imagen a novel Where someone sees a human politician do something discriminating and cerberus hunts the witnesses down and covers everything up so not to ambarasse humanity and then kills the politician.

Or cerberus causing terrorist attacks in name of the Geth (or spread the idea of a imminent geth attack) to cause a arms race so by the time the reapers come. The citadel races are heavely armed.

Both ideas would be in Cerberus lines of the end justifies the means with the difference it all actually does have a point and the galaxy would be better prepared for a reaper attack.

I love that second idea.

I went from really disliking Cerberus because of their horrid methods. But as the story continues to unfold in its nickle-and-dime fashion, I've found that my hatred isn't towards Cerberus. It's towards BioWare who cannot keep what Cerberus is stright in their mind.

It started off as just a break-away black ops unit.

Then it was retconned into being the Illusive Man's private army, which a later comic book tells us was created to stop the Reapers because of a device TIM found during the First Contact War. This Cerberus vowed to do anything to stop the Reapers and break the endless cycle of galaxtic death.

....at some point this also became a humanity first organization...despite every single experiment being done on humans, including husk'ing a colony. Because Eden Prime wasn't enough of an example that dragon's teeth husk people.

Any one of these ideas is fine: break away black-ops, anti-Reaper organization, human first organization. But by mixing, retconning, and sometimes just generally ignoring things I just don't think BioWare knows what they're doing with Cereberus anymore.

Like I said, I used to think it was clever writing that TIM talks about humanity while never experimenting on aliens or attacking alien worlds/colonies. The people he says he helps he actually hurts all for his own benefit. I thought that was a great character trait; especially since the guy honestly seemed to believe his own lies. But now I'm not so sure this is on purpose. I think it's BioWare who has no idea what to do with these guys.

And now they're indoctrinated. Which isn't surprising at all. They put Reaper tech into people for lulz and there's already been at least one Cereberus cell indoctrinated (the dead Reaper).

Just bah!

Cereberus is such a victim of too much exposure. We see too many of their failed experiments, almost none of their successes, and they're always villains without some greater picture.

EDIT:

Also the cell defending the Reaper could have been indoctrinated and not all of Cereberus or even TIM. Think of it like this:

Destroy the Collector Base- Someone charges you to break into the Cereberus base to kill/steal/destroy X.
Kept the Collector Base- Go to this Cereberus base and they'll get you what you need.

But you arrive and find out the entire base has been indoctrinated by the Reaper there.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 13 juillet 2011 - 11:08 .

[nhsk]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, they aren't. If the geth were actually open to peace they'd send the quarians a message of peace. Instead they do nothing. It's the same way they handle the rest of the galaxy. Their silence is hostility.

If the geth had been communicating with the quarians Rael's experiments would have probably never taken place.

It is quite telling that Koris is interested in sending a message of peace to the geth and is taking drastic steps to do so. The geth however are not inclined to do so.

Somehow I don't think the Quarians let the Geth into their systems and just shut out any communication attempt.

[Foolsfolly]

Your fifth point is insane.

Cerberus just happens to have indoctrinated troopers to send after someone? What?

Also I was under the assumption that Cerberus recruits from the best of the best. So it's not like sending a Monarch henchmen after Brock Sampson. It should be more like sending Jason Bourne after James Bond.

Should be....it's a game so of course they'll go down easy as can be.

[Costin_Razvan]

Reads OP's post.

"Facepalms"

[Foolsfolly]

Well, if their recruitment standard is so low then they should just hire one of the many merc bands to do their dirty work.

As long as it's not the Blue Suns. They seem to have betrayal issues.

[Sebby]

laecraft wrote...

arne1234 wrote...

Or cerberus causing terrorist attacks in name of the Geth (or spread the idea of a imminent geth attack) to cause a arms race so by the time the reapers come. The citadel races are heavely armed.

It's the most natural thing to do. I don't understand what's Shepard's excuse for not doing it. Why can't he just tell the Council, "All right, there are no Reapers. But there are geth, and they have BIG ships. Also, they're preparing to invade the galaxy."

Or he could say it on the media. He's got a reporter associate. And the Council would be able to do nothing to refute his words, after all their "they were geth" agenda, after the geth attack on the Citadel that did heavy damage to the Council fleet. The galaxy would be prepared to the war.

Geth are real, they're not some mythical sentient warships. You can't laugh them off. Everyone believes in geth.

You have to remember you're dealing with a guy/gal that compared the genophage with the first contact war....

[Foolsfolly]

You have to remember you're dealing with a guy/gal that compared the genophage with the first contact war....

HA!

That dialogue was dreadful.

[Foolsfolly]

In Shepard's defense, the idea doesn't occur to Anderson either. They're kindred spirits, aren't they?

Nor Cerberus, Joker, Ashley, Kaiden, the Salarian Councilmen (come on Mordin has a book on indoctrination!), Liara, the Shadow Broker, or anyone with any knowledge of the Reapers.

It's almost as if the galaxy wants the Reapers to win.

[mineralica]

Two humans and Mary Sue against the black ops organisation which may allow itself to return people from dead, build a copy of prototype warship and is going to pull private army out of somewhere to 3rd game?

Ha ha.

[Foolsfolly]

...I find Shepard more likable during one of the Shepard speeches, when he yells at people, and when he's in Lair of the Shadow Broker.

...seriously, fantastic writing in Lair.

[Foolsfolly]

There's been numerous threads and posts pointing out that there's simply no way the Council does not know about the Reapers.

The STG obviously knows about the Reapers. They were on Virmire, Mordin wrote a book about Reaper indoctrination, his student read that book. And when you bring up Reapers to the Council the Salarian Council member is excited and asks about them...and then waves them away as being obviously fake.

The best case here is that the Council knows there are Reapers but for some reason do not trust Shepard with that knowledge. It makes little sense in ME1 for that, but in ME2 you work for Cerberus...every reason in the world for not telling Shepard they know about the Reapers then.

[therussianviking]

I personally think no one is indoctrinated from Cerberus, but with the reapers blowing up the galaxy, TIM is simply losing control on his units. A rogue cell or two wants shepard dead for whatever reason. My evidence for this is in the demos at E3, the Cerberus squads use tactics. If they were indoctrinated, the Reapers would just make them bumrush Shepard.

[nhsk]

laecraft wrote...

Wait a minute. The Council knows about the indoctrination! They had their people return from Virmire with the report. And, and how do they explain it? The geth tech???

Meh indoctrination is a human invention, making someone fight for your cause despite them not being willing to at first by beating down their will, giving them better living standards by doing your bidding, by propaganda etc.

In ME it just happens to be taken a step further, but thinking Saren couldn't have possibly done some indoctrination without fancy devices is a bit naive, sorry.

[Luigitornado]

Looking forward to it. People don't have to read it if they don't want to.

[alperez]

laecraft wrote...



If by "threatening galactic stability" you mean "threatening the Council's galactic dominance," then yes, I agree with you. Asari have Justicars, who are allowed to shoot anyone in their way, even policemen. Nobody knows what's in that codex they follow. Salarians have STG, who are allowed to commit "gentle genocide" for the good of the galaxy. Who's to say the galaxy doesn't decide tomorrow that humanity should be destroyed for the good of the galaxy? I say humanity should be allowed to have our own "we follow no law" operatives. For balance and galactic stability.

Humanity or the alliance would have its own version of the STG and the spectres both government sanctioned groups unlike Cerberus a non government sanctioned group, as for Justicars they operate freely in Asari society and are accepted as such, this is pointed out to you in me2 and the reasoning behind why Samara is arrested and why her actions can cause problems basically the whole point of her recruitment mission.

If Cerberus was a direct alliance controlled group carrying out alliance directives then you may have a point, they aren't though, they are operating independent of the alliance which by definition makes them a terrorist group and their agenda threatens galactic stability because their goal is Humanity above everyone else, something none of the examples you give fit into.

Cerberus is sponsored by the Earth. That endless funding doesn't come out of TIM's bottomless pocket. This is a shadow organization backed up by humanity. This is not democracy, no. But it's close to oligarchy.

You think there could be an official organization representing humanity? It's going to be squashed by the Council in an instant. Look what they did to the Alliance. The Alliace doesn't dare to act against the Council for fear of angering them. Cerberus does all the dirty job for humanity, and the Alliance can say "it's not us, it's them - we never authorized this, they're terrorists!"

If we do nothing to protect ourselves, nothing to secure our power, humanity's going to be wiped out by the batarians. And the Council will just stand by and say, "regrettable, but this is Terminus Systems." And the Alliance will just do nothing, as usual. And we will have deserved it, because we're not willing to fight for our own survival. We need new colonies. The Earth can't house us forever. I'm not letting humanity suffer the same fate as krogan or quarians.

Cerberus is not sponsored by the Earth its sponsord by certain indviduals that agree with its goals and its methods, it is not officially sanctioned by any government.

The alliance is allowed to carry out or have its own organisations carry out missions that benefit humanity what it isn't allowed is to just do whatever it wants with no regards to any other species in the galaxy. As for the alliance not daring to act against the council, why would it? not only is it part of the council but it agrees with most of the goals of the council in the first place.

The only reason the council would squash an alliance organisation would be if that organisation was deliberately doing things that put the whole galaxy at risk, something the alliance as part of the council aren't going to do.

As for the batarians and the council not acting against them and whether or not they should, they kinda pretty much explained the whole terminus system political structure to us during me2. Its not council controlled space, no other council race is trying to take it over or risking war with the batarians there so why should the council after telling the alliance not to do so then just ignore their own directive and go in to help humans who shouldn't be there in the first place.

I know it because I read TIM's thoughts in the book.

Or did you, you read thoughts that were attributed to TIm but whose to say those thoughts didn't come from somewhere else and weren't in fact the whispering of the reapers.

But even if your right it still doesn't conflict with anything i've said since i've mentioned countless times that indoctrination doesn't eliminate free will until its complete.

The game's not out yet. Until then, I don't know the full picture.

 
Thats completely true, all i was saying was that certain devs have suggested things.

Yes, I believe it. The war is hopeless. A single Reaper nearly brought down the entire Council fleet. We have hundreds of them now. Without an understanding of Reaper tech, we have no chance. Mind you, whether you destroyed the base or not, Cerberus gets the tech anyway. It means it's going to be crucial to the game.

Or it means nothing we have no idea how we're going to beat the reapers, other than a few basic outlines such as uniting the galaxies races and things like that. But to suggest that just because Cerberus gets the tech anyway that means its going to be crucial to beating the reapers is amazing foresight on your part.

We shall see.

Indeed we shall but i think a trilogy featuring Shepard as the main protagonist over 3 games may very well end with that very same protagonist being the person that defeats the enemy

40 percent of the enemies we will fight in ME3 will be Cerberus. I'd say the game is going to be about Cerberus.

Yes just because 40% of the enemies we face are Cerberus that means the game is going to be about Cerberus, it has absolutely nothing to do with the reapers invasion or Shepard whatsoever, why didn't i see that before. All this time i assumed that i was playing a game about a sentient machine race trying to wipe out all life and a hero rising to stop them when in fact its been about Cerberus all this time^_^