146 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Frybread76 wrote...
That's really not a ringing endorsement of DA2.

I don't think DA2 was a great game, but I do think it was a good game; it had more good tan it did bad. It had 2 features I really liked: the PC VO, and the combat (the mechanics, I mean, especially the cross-class combos) and the fact we weren't in Ferelden (I hate wilderness, so being in a city, even as bad as Kirkwall, was a blessing). I didn't like the item restrictions, the lack of reactivity, the recycled areas, the directionless plot, or the loss of the ability to speak to companions any time.

It sounds like I have more negatives than positives, but I really like the combat mechanis and VO. 

 

[LilyasAvalon]

Dear, Lord... Yes. Just. Yes. Yes times infinity.

Don't fix what ain't broken, Bioware. Fix what IS broken.

[MessageBoxA]

Yes!

I cannot believe a company that created "Game of the Year" on every platform... actually changed nearly every aspect of the game design. I was desperately hoping for an improved DA:O style game but instead found a completely new game.

The game probably did well financially... but only because all of the gamers assumed it would be an extension of DA:O

I predict that DA2 will not be chosen for game of the year on any platform.

-MessageBoxA

[TheRealJayDee]

Oh yes!

DA2 still irritates me a lot. I mean, as many others have said, BioWare started with DA:O, the "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate", the first game of a new RPG franchise. Which was extremely well received by both professional critics and gamers, got tons of awards and was one of their best selling games so far.

Why make a sequel that looks, feels and plays like a half-hearted semi-reboot? I really don't get it.

Innovation for the sake of innovation is an okay concept, although quite risky, but if you make drastic changes you definitely need to make at least some of them work. Way I see it DA2 was a step back compared to DA:O in most aspects - even the improved fighting system to me was ruined by annoying waves and ott flashy animations. To be clear, DA:O was by no means a "perfect" game. It did leave a lot (!) of room for improvements, but imo DA2 didn't improve, it mostly just changed and/or removed. Given this dedication to change in combination with the short development time I honestly don't see how DA2 was supposed to work properly. And by "work" I mean "keeping most of the old fans/buyers while getting tons of new fans/buyers".

Did DA2 “work”? Maybe it’s still too early to make any final judgements on that, but given the present situation I’d say it certainly looks like it did not. The fact that despite lower sales compared to DA:O it still might be a financial success imo shouldn’t be a reason to act like the game was successful in general. Because if you look beyond the quick buck it made I don’t think it’s possible to completely deny that DA2 damaged the franchise in some way, however badly this damage actually was.

So yeah, I’d rather have had a DA:O styled sequel to DA:O than DA2 as it is. Which doesn’t mean I’d have wanted a carbon copy of DA:O, but simply a game that looks, feels and plays like DA:O, or rather Dragon Age in general. Refined and improved where it was necessary and would have made sense, but still recognizable.

I hope a potential DA3 returns to that Dragon Age feeling I missed in DA2. Doesn’t mean I need an archdemon to slay or a country to save. I think would have loved the game DA2 could have been, with all the politics, intrigues and conflicts. Being a desperate yet determined refugee, struggling to gain wealth and influence, forming fragile alliances with nobles or other powers in Kirkwall, rising to power and shaping the city over the course of that rise – I want to play that game, I really do! Sadly most of what I remember doing was killing thousands of ninjas and demons.

And, damn, I really need to sleep now…

[elfdwarf]

nah
origins has worst combat
i spit on origins

[KennethAFTopp]

elfdwarf wrote...

nah
origins has worst combat
i spit on origins

I thought it was fun enough.

I had no problem, in contrast to what Chris Priestly or David Gaider said to go back and Play Origins actually. Not. At. All.
I kept thinking if they had kept more or less the Da:O combat but sped it up, like it is with a Haste Spell, then they'd have a winner.

Modifié par KennethAFTopp, 14 juillet 2011 - 02:13 .

[erynnar]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Oh yes!

DA2 still irritates me a lot. I mean, as many others have said, BioWare started with DA:O, the "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate", the first game of a new RPG franchise. Which was extremely well received by both professional critics and gamers, got tons of awards and was one of their best selling games so far.

Why make a sequel that looks, feels and plays like a half-hearted semi-reboot? I really don't get it.

Innovation for the sake of innovation is an okay concept, although quite risky, but if you make drastic changes you definitely need to make at least some of them work. Way I see it DA2 was a step back compared to DA:O in most aspects - even the improved fighting system to me was ruined by annoying waves and ott flashy animations. To be clear, DA:O was by no means a "perfect" game. It did leave a lot (!) of room for improvements, but imo DA2 didn't improve, it mostly just changed and/or removed. Given this dedication to change in combination with the short development time I honestly don't see how DA2 was supposed to work properly. And by "work" I mean "keeping most of the old fans/buyers while getting tons of new fans/buyers".

Did DA2 “work”? Maybe it’s still too early to make any final judgements on that, but given the present situation I’d say it certainly looks like it did not. The fact that despite lower sales compared to DA:O it still might be a financial success imo shouldn’t be a reason to act like the game was successful in general. Because if you look beyond the quick buck it made I don’t think it’s possible to completely deny that DA2 damaged the franchise in some way, however badly this damage actually was.

So yeah, I’d rather have had a DA:O styled sequel to DA:O than DA2 as it is. Which doesn’t mean I’d have wanted a carbon copy of DA:O, but simply a game that looks, feels and plays like DA:O, or rather Dragon Age in general. Refined and improved where it was necessary and would have made sense, but still recognizable.

I hope a potential DA3 returns to that Dragon Age feeling I missed in DA2. Doesn’t mean I need an archdemon to slay or a country to save. I think would have loved the game DA2 could have been, with all the politics, intrigues and conflicts. Being a desperate yet determined refugee, struggling to gain wealth and influence, forming fragile alliances with nobles or other powers in Kirkwall, rising to power and shaping the city over the course of that rise – I want to play that game, I really do! Sadly most of what I remember doing was killing thousands of ninjas and demons.

And, damn, I really need to sleep now…

ROFL! This^ even to the sleep part.  And I too wanted to play and enjoy DA2. But very few parts are memorable, except the waves and waves of enemies.  Dammit! I wanted to love it.

[Shadow6773]

...To quote the Joker, "You know what I've noticed, nobody panics when things go according to plan. Even if the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow I tell the press that, like a gangbanger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all part of the plan. But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds."

... with that said I think a few people may agree with me (given that sales of DA2 have been about 1/3 of Origins and reviews are hardly in agreement) when I say things did not go according to "plan". By plan I mean what the fans wanted or were expecting which was more DAO-ness IMO.

To answer your question OP, yes. All I wanted was minor graphical tweaks, a few more options related to armor and weapon crafting and slightly sped up combat with more abilities. Basically I wanted a bit more customization, not less.

That being said...

If Bioware changed nothing, keeping all the party interactivity and the same graphics and style as before and just came out with a good new storyline and memorable companions, I could deal with that. At least its familiar and if the original sucked so bad(which it obviously didn't) I wouldn't have bought this next one which surely must be similar, right? That being said, the 180 we got in game design was not part of my "plan".

It just seems that even with the new "bells and whistles" they added, like a voiced main character or narrated story, were implemented badly. I mean, is a voiced main character worth the trade off of less vo from the companions and thus less interaction just from the cost alone? I'm sure it also played a part to limit any story tree they could do just from the sheer amount of work and vo for all the above possible story directions, thus prompting a narrated story with minimal direction change by you(see how much one choice can potentially changed things?). Don't get me wrong, Hawke, especially the female version were voiced well, but if you have a crap budget or are in a rush, you have to make these tough choices. I belief most of the bad things in DA2 stem from "new ideas" that hampered the original design like my previous example. There are more obviously and I'll avoid naming them since we all know what they are but you get the idea. Poor decision making all around.

Modifié par Shadow6773, 14 juillet 2011 - 08:43 .

[Nightdragon8]

IMO the old engine had some serious flaws in it, at least for PC, 2/5 times a AOE shoots off my game crashes. Not really good oods for large battles...

Don't get me wrong I think the textures where better in DAO but the engine had issues.

Also twohanded fighting seemed pointless in DAO. in DA2 its fun. so

[Shadow6773]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

IMO the old engine had some serious flaws in it, at least for PC, 2/5 times a AOE shoots off my game crashes. Not really good oods for large battles...

Don't get me wrong I think the textures where better in DAO but the engine had issues.

Also twohanded fighting seemed pointless in DAO. in DA2 its fun. so

You are correct. The engine did need work, which was one of the minor improvements I belief they needed to implement myself. However, what I think the OP is asking is not what problems DAO had but if we wanted a game similar to it, which would likely include a few minor tweaks, such as fixing the aforementioned engine of crash while keeping the general game concept/design/spirit intact. We all know DAO had flaws, but we are discussing if we wanted something more similar to its design as opposed to what we have now which is vastly different.

[furryrage59]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

IMO the old engine had some serious flaws in it, at least for PC, 2/5 times a AOE shoots off my game crashes. Not really good oods for large battles...

Don't get me wrong I think the textures where better in DAO but the engine had issues.

Also twohanded fighting seemed pointless in DAO. in DA2 its fun. so

Two handed fighting has been far and away my most enjoyable style in DA:O, absolutely love everything about it. The moves, the damage, the speed, the look all make me moist.

But, to each their own of course, some folk prefer the faster style, personally i loathe it.

[Tirfan]

^ Seconding 2 handers in DA:O, it was quite fun and you could make a pretty damn efficient 2-hander-builds, it just required paying attention while playing, like timing abilities right and all that kind of boring things.

[TMZuk]

Tirfan wrote...

Well.. yes, I would have liked it more, I also would have liked it to improve on certain things; better usage of gameplay as an tool of narrative, combatwise.. better balance and better encounter-design. I'd have liked a few changes to companion-interraction (I'd like to have conversations with companions so that there are several of them actually participating in them), the gift-system revamped a bit. A bit more natural looking animations both in and out of combat. Nothing too serious. Perhaps a bit more quests where you can express your character and have those great RP-opportunities..

And of course, the most important thing should have stayed; the silent protagonist.

This! I could not agree more!

[Firky]

Luke Bioware wrote...

I was just wondering about this, and sorry if it has been discussed before. I would've rather had something like Awakening again to be honest, if they truly didn't get much time from EA to make a new classic. Much like Baldur's Gate II was to Baldur's Gate I mean: subtle changes, which made the game somewhat better than its predecessor in the end.

Personally I really hated the dumbed down combat.

I snipped the post a bit. Sorry.

It's an interesting question, because I probably would have liked another Awakening. I wouldn't have hated it. And I totally appreciate what you are saying about the Baldur's Gates.

Oddly, though, it was the new combat system that really endeared me to DAII. I wasn't expecting to actually like DAII more than Origins, but struggling with combat was refreshing. (And, it made me appreciate the other elements more that I probably otherwise would have, like "earning" dialogue, instead of it being always available, etc.)

[happy_daiz]

I appreciate both DAO and DA2 for what they are, and can separate them in my mind appropriately.

Right before DA2 came out, I replayed DAO again, and it had been a couple of years since my last playthrough. I had forgotten how long and drawn out it was. But I still enjoyed it. Then I played DA2, and felt that the combat was much more fluid, and things just seemed to flow better. Then I played DAO two more times for different imports. By then, I had had enough of DAO, and decided to retire it. I will still always love the game, but in reality, the technology and gameplay is really dated. The story and interactivity is not.

I wonder if the hatred for DA2 is because people were expecting it to "just be another Origins". I wasn't expecting that, and I wasn't disappointed. I knew it was a different story, and it stands to reason that gameplay may be different as a result. Rehashing the same thing over and over shouldn't be the goal for any software development company. I think it's great that they tried something new; they should ALWAYS try something new. Granted, there should have been more time devoted to it before it was released, some decisions should have been considered a bit more (maps), and the QA could have been improved, but overall, I think it's a good game. Perhaps I'm more forgiving because I'm a developer myself.

Would I have rather seen DA2 "styled" like DAO? No, not really. I see and understand the appeal, but I don't necessarily agree with it. We can agree to disagree.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 14 juillet 2011 - 01:42 .

[MonkeyLungs]

The technology and gameplay of Origins feels way more advanced to me than DA2 and I play on console where supposedly DA:O is subpar.

DA2 is shiny but it doesn't really look better. I think maybe the character models and some of the armor models are improved but that's about it. Art direction and level design are not in the same league as Origins.

Combat is like the worst new addition to the series and is so much worse than DA:O ... but I understand that people like reatrdo land anime moves and hyperactive combat.

[Luke Bioware]

That elf character is who I hated the most actually. He seems like a whiny JRPG kind of guy in my opinion. Ah well, I could rant about this game for a couple of hours at least .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Honestly, I really don't see why the team felt the need to revamp not only the gameplay but the entire structure of the game as well. Knowing the fanbase, I'm certain they could've easily made another game and a half simply reusing the old engine and gameplay systems as they were, merely adding more powers and the like.

As someone who only relatively lately became aware of Bioware, having started with ME, I was amazed at what I had missed all those years. I initially didn't think DAO would be my cup of tea, but seeing Luke (the OP, friend of mine) talking so passionately about both it and Baldur's Gate. I decided to cave in and give it a try... and I most certainly wasn't displeased. If that was the greatness Bioware was capable of releasing once every two years or so, I was determined to make sure I'd be a part of that. Now, I feel robbed of something that could've been the experience of a lifetime.

Personally, as a console gamer I never gave much about the combat system, but I was willing to let that slide because everything else was made so wonderfully. The world, the characters, the quests, the choices, how everything was woven together. Now, with DA2, I don't feel like I'm going on huge quests anymore, and I'm pretty damn sure there weren't any worthwhile choices on the way. The characters were still as good as ever, that much I cannot deny, so kudos for that. But why do away with the prologue-four main quests-endgame structure when it worked?

The streamlining worked for ME2 because there was an obvious goal to work towards to, namely a combat system that's similar to Gears. Their example was pretty much the best third-person shooters had to offer, and while it was obvious they had taken more than a few notes from it, it worked but still managed to be an entity of its own. Looking at the evolution of Origins to DA2, I honestly can't say what happened... we certaintly didn't get anything that tries to be something as smooth as Bayonetta or even God of War. Even though I'm not sure what the combat system tries to be, it still works as much as the original system did (it ain't great, but it could be worse). Why they saw fit to get rid of managing your companions' equipment, though, I'll never understand. You'd think it's for streamlining purposes. but then you see how you still get all those pieces of equipment for the other classes, plus a crapload of junk items

Black Arachnia wrote...

When you sell around 4 million copies of a game, you should refine it and not re-engineer what wasn't broken and throw away what made it great in the first place.

Common Sense if you ask me.

True, true.

So far, this has been the first time I'm sad I'm not a PC gamer, as then I would've at least had the Witcher to fall  back upon. Of course, the devs claim to take our feedback to heart, but I've heard that being said before by others. Guess all I can do is wait and see.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 18 juillet 2011 - 05:21 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

yes! Bioware get your awesome button out of my dragon age

[0x30A88]

Origins with improved graphics and a more responsive combat. By repsonsive, I mean, you should still be controlling humanoid beings, not excessively overpowered ninja teleporters. Have the 2H animations at a sweet spot between DA:O and DAII, and also have the enemies have the same abillities, not being a drooling fool that can barely hold a sword right. DA:O did balancing well in comparasion.

DA3 will have to stand on its own merits, rather than the former game's glory.

Scene consistency would also need to be improved upon. The ground and grass might be nice, but those trees....those trees... And you knew what a Studded leather armor was, or a Dwarven Heavy Armor was. In DA2 you never know what you get other than stats.

Modifié par Gisle Aune, 18 juillet 2011 - 06:49 .

[Shadow6773]

Firky wrote...

Luke Bioware wrote...

I was just wondering about this, and sorry if it has been discussed before. I would've rather had something like Awakening again to be honest, if they truly didn't get much time from EA to make a new classic. Much like Baldur's Gate II was to Baldur's Gate I mean: subtle changes, which made the game somewhat better than its predecessor in the end.

Personally I really hated the dumbed down combat. 

I snipped the post a bit. Sorry. 

It's an interesting question, because I probably would have liked another Awakening. I wouldn't have hated it. And I totally appreciate what you are saying about the Baldur's Gates. 

Oddly, though, it was the new combat system that really endeared me to DAII. I wasn't expecting to actually like DAII more than Origins, but struggling with combat was refreshing. (And, it made me appreciate the other elements more that I probably otherwise would have, like "earning" dialogue, instead of it being always available, etc.)

As far as combat was hoping for something in between as far as speed goes. its isn't bad and improved in some ways but hard to manage more then one character with things going so fast. Aside from the waves and exploding enemies i've seen worse. Def seen better though. 

However..

I respectfully disagree with "earning dialog" though. Aside from the fact that its obviously a way for them to cheap out on the content and voice acting, I don't think half a dozen conversations over a dozen years or so with you not being able to really initiate anything is very "rewarding". I don't see the draw at all, its not realistic or fun and does not help me bond with my party. In DAO it was a good way to learn their opinions and learn more about the world, something that helped draw you into the game more and care about it. I loved the open conversation system of DAO, it was one of the better features and cutting content like this never makes things better. ME can keep their conversation wheel and such, I never wanted it. It works for that game, where you have to explore an entire universe, not this one where you are restricted to a small map, or in this case just one city and thus should get more detail to go along with it. 

As far as "earning things" goes I would have rather "lived" and "earned" my first year in kirkwall paying off my debt as well as meeting half the people who just randomly know me after the time skips. I feel I earned the time in between all the changes to see things take place and build them myself, not just see relatively insignifigant things change with me out of the loop. Ooo bigger house, this person likes me more/likes me less. The phrase "stuff happens" applys really well, as you feel totally out of control of things going on around you. Its like the narrator hijacks the story that you are supposedly living...

Hawke(me): I think I will make some blueberry muffins.
Varrick(narrator): Are you sure you want blueberry muffins? I think it would be uber awesome if you had cookies instead.
Hawke(me): No I def wanted muffins, thats why I selected it, it was an option right here, one of like three crappy ones, but I totally choose it.
Varrick(narrator): Sorry, not good enough, the muffins were just a plot device, you can pretend to eat them if you want but for all practical purposes you will get cookies as the results of your efforts.
Hawke(me): But, thats not what I wanted and totally doesn't make sense, why give me the option and make my choice completely non critical and ignore it, am I not the main protagonist?
Varrick(narrator): Yeah, its kinda my thing, you get the joy of living in my make belief world where it doesn't matter what you want and I decide what meaning your choices have! Thats if i'm awake and decide not to skip over them cause I'm tired and don't want to make an effort. 
Hawke(me):  ::Stares are Varrick::
Varrick(narrator): What? You are totally entertained now, right?
Hawke(me): ::Stares at Varrick::  Um, no.
Varrick(narrator):  ::Pulls out mind control device:: You will make the cookies!
Hawke(me):  5 mins into the future...  ::shakes head in a daze and looks down at cookie in hand:: hmm, wait a second here, I vaguely remember... aw, d*mmit!


Yes, I realize how over the top this is, but it seems an accurate depiction and you get the idea..

Modifié par Shadow6773, 18 juillet 2011 - 06:56 .

[blaidfiste]

I'd rather a mixture of the two. Both games had issues. I can tell you one thing, I'm not buying anymore DA games if they have those foolish enemy popups.

1-2 additional invisible mages appearing - OK
1-2 bonus assassins ambushing my mages - OK
A few extra undead crawling out the ground -OK
A few more of any enemy arriving through a DOORWAY because they hear the ruckus - OK

I can forgive everything else.

[Luke Bioware]

Kinda forgot about this topic (needed to round up my thesis, so I can start on my master degree this fall ), but I've read some awesome replies so far. I really hope BioWare can take some of the merits of this revamped Dragon Age, and stuff it in some sausage Origins fans can really enjoy too again. I will be playing Dragon Age II again though; I'll always be a sucker for BioWare IPs. I just thought I'd never encounter a BioWare game I wouldn't try to thrust upon all of my acquaintances who game .

Modifié par Luke Bioware, 18 juillet 2011 - 10:27 .

[Luke Bioware]

E: oops.

Modifié par Luke Bioware, 18 juillet 2011 - 10:27 .