318 réponses à ce sujet

[Heather Cline]

I dislike how you gimped the mage class in he latest DA2 patch update. There was nothing wrong with the mage class magic attack power for certain spells nor was there anything wrong with the blood mage items. In fact I believe that reducing the overall mana benefit for blood mage items makes the game playing as a mage a lot harder than it should be.

[Sidney]

I'd also like to see injuries matter - not they "you died" injuries but actually wounding things in combat. As it is stands now there is no difference in effectiveness between a 100 hp and 1 hp. Whatever you imagine hit points to be losing half of them should have some sort of effect on your ability to fight. It would also force me to change my tactics (or at least give a reason to think about it) since right now everyone killing one thing at a time is far more effective than 4 people wounding 4 different aggressors.

[Cribbian]

Get rid of the restrictions regarding what types of weapons your companions can use. All companions should also have access to all skilltrees that belong to their respective class.

Re-add non combat-skills.

Rogues should'nt teleport around on the battlefield. If you want to backstab an enemy you should have to manually move your rogue into the right position.

Modifié par Cribbian, 16 juillet 2011 - 11:23 .

[Firky]

Interesting thread.

Loving combat, and think DAII has got quite an interesting "strategy/action hybrid" thing going on, but have been reflecting on one thing. I don't understand why many enemies are so "easy" to dodge, like Commanders etc. (Arishok.)

On the one hand, in Origins, you'd instinctively try to get some distance if an archer was being attacked, for example, but then, after a big swing from the attacker, the archer would suddenly drop dead, ten paces away. It's good that you *can* dodge in DAII, but I've had some battles where I have literally danced out of the way of every single Commander attack, while skipping around and doing other things with other people. (And, sometimes, just dodging regular attacks too.)

It might just be my play style. I have all tactics and behaviours disabled. I micromanage everyone just because it's fun. The thing is, if you *can* dodge, I feel like I should be dodging, to optimize play. I don't know how to fix it, though. Could you give Commanders a quick swing and a heavy swing? Or give the controlled character some kind of dodge move, mapped to a key? Or, less telegraphing (big sword swing) for normal attacks? Like, I found that I couldn't always react to what Ancient Rock Wraith was about to do next, which was good. (And he has long arms.)

(Oh, and although I've gotten used to living without the higher view camera, I would love to see that back. And, better AoE targetting. And, less prerequisites for the early choices of ability. Ability trees are good, but a bit more flexibility in the first few levels would have been nice.)

Shutting up now.

Edit: OK, almost shutting up. You know, it did take me until halfway through my first playthrough to figure out how to actually turn off all tactics and behaviours. I couldn't figure out why Anders kept running away from melee etc. I really just wanted him to stand still until I told him what to do. I can appreciate that people who want to just control one character (especially a DW rogue) need tactics and that many other "high level combat players" want them and tailor them very carefully to suit what they are doing, but I just want to feel like I'm playing Baldur's Gate (and controlling everything - because it is party based combat, after all.)

I wonder if some of the more reactionary criticism (but not the more thoughtful, because there are always different perspectives) directed at things like "feels too fast", "teleporting around the battlefield", "kiting" etc comes from the fact that your party is constantly running around doing stuff you don't tell them to do, until you figure out how to tell them not to do it. (I can understand why it is so, but if you want a more "old school" feel, you have to go looking for it.)

Oh, and btw, I LOVE walking bomb. Heheh. It has wiped out my entire party so many times. (I don't know if its coincidence or designed that way, but whoever I've cast it on seems to do a suicide run into my party at the last second. But, used in CCCs with Varric's crowd control abilities, and with a nearly dead enemy in a cluster = brilliant. Love it. Very, very risky.)

Modifié par Firky, 16 juillet 2011 - 12:41 .

[Xalen]

Rant about CCC.

Rogues, especially archers, got the short end of the stick with CCC.
As wonderful as Assasinate + BRITTLE or Archer's Lance + BRITTLE are, you have to heavily invest in that particular tree to get this combo. Compare: for mages Chain Lighning + STAGGER and/or Stonefist + DISORIENT require 4 points in primal in total, Spirit Bolt + DISORIENT - 3 points, Mighty Blow + BRITTLE require 3 points, Scatter + DISORIENT - 4 point. On the other hand, Archer's Lance + BRITTLE require 8 points invested in an otherwise crappy tree. Assasinate + BRITTLE require, well, assasin specialization.
Of course, BRITTLE gives +50% critical damage, which can be useful for a high-crit rogue even without CCC, but still, this bonus is much less then any other bonus from any other CCC ability.
And As DW you can use Explosive Strike for STAGGER or at least Lacerate, but as an Archer there's no way to exploit it at all (Vendetta is kinda counerintuitive with an archer).
And if you want to play Shadow + Duelist - you're officially screwed.
It could be handwaved with "pick you specialization carefully to allow optimized performance" or something, but then we have mages with access to everything without heavy point investing.
While most companions are able to exploit only one CCC (disorient for Aveline, brittle for Fenris etc., and poor Isabela have almost none since there's no tactics for Explosive Strike), mages can exploit two. So any party with two mages is preferable to any party with <=1 mage, and I don't think that such limited party selection is good for an RPG.


/* Look at me whining...Truth is, Merril annoys the hell out of me, but she's an incredibly useful party member, so I'm faced with a choice: either play with gimped party, or beat my head against the wall every time she opens her mouth. On the other hand, I love Isabela, but she's a terrible party member performace-wise, esp. with DW rogue who I mostly play. So yeah, I'm complaining about gameplay when in fact I'm just annoyed that the game won't let me play my dream party :innocent: */ 

[nicethugbert]

If I have to have a choice between rogues "teleporting" vs. rogues moving at regular speed across the battlefield, I'll live with the teleporting. I'd rather have fast over slow anyday.

[Relix28]

Xalen wrote...

Rant about CCC.

Rogues, especially archers, got the short end of the stick with CCC.
As wonderful as Assasinate + BRITTLE or Archer's Lance + BRITTLE are, you have to heavily invest in that particular tree to get this combo. Compare: for mages Chain Lighning + STAGGER and/or Stonefist + DISORIENT require 4 points in primal in total, Spirit Bolt + DISORIENT - 3 points, Mighty Blow + BRITTLE require 3 points, Scatter + DISORIENT - 4 point. On the other hand, Archer's Lance + BRITTLE require 8 points invested in an otherwise crappy tree. Assasinate + BRITTLE require, well, assasin specialization.
Of course, BRITTLE gives +50% critical damage, which can be useful for a high-crit rogue even without CCC, but still, this bonus is much less then any other bonus from any other CCC ability.
And As DW you can use Explosive Strike for STAGGER or at least Lacerate, but as an Archer there's no way to exploit it at all (Vendetta is kinda counerintuitive with an archer).
And if you want to play Shadow + Duelist - you're officially screwed.
It could be handwaved with "pick you specialization carefully to allow optimized performance" or something, but then we have mages with access to everything without heavy point investing.
While most companions are able to exploit only one CCC (disorient for Aveline, brittle for Fenris etc., and poor Isabela have almost none since there's no tactics for Explosive Strike), mages can exploit two. So any party with two mages is preferable to any party with <=1 mage, and I don't think that such limited party selection is good for an RPG.


/* Look at me whining...Truth is, Merril annoys the hell out of me, but she's an incredibly useful party member, so I'm faced with a choice: either play with gimped party, or beat my head against the wall every time she opens her mouth. On the other hand, I love Isabela, but she's a terrible party member performace-wise, esp. with DW rogue who I mostly play. So yeah, I'm complaining about gameplay when in fact I'm just annoyed that the game won't let me play my dream party :innocent: */ 

What the hell are you rambling on about?

You do know that you can exploit BRITTLE with Bursting Arrow and it takes 3 points to get it. You can also set up dissorients via Pinning Shot, and it takes 4 points to get it. Archers Lance and Assassinate are top tier abilities that can annihilate elite targets in one shot (sometimes even without CCC), so it makes sense that you have to invest heavily to accuire them. 
And Isabela with Lacerate/Maim and an upgraded Explosive Strike can exploit STAGGER like a pro. Even without the full bonus damage from Unforgiving Chain, she does decent amount of damage to kill off most tragets. And, If they manage to survive, they get killed later from the damage reapplied from Lacerate.
Sebastian's Arrow of Judgement on the other hand is another matter. It's like Explosive Strike without the ability for CCC. Unless you are directly controling Sebastian, there is no way he can fully exploit the ability via tactics. And unlike Explosive Strike, it doesn't have CCC capabilities, wich makes it pretty useless.

Modifié par Relix28, 16 juillet 2011 - 04:17 .

[TEWR]

nicethugbert wrote...

If I have to have a choice between rogues "teleporting" vs. rogues moving at regular speed across the battlefield, I'll live with the teleporting. I'd rather have fast over slow anyday.

I'd rather have Bioware refine the Backstab technique so that the smoke bomb covers a good portion of the field (about as far back as you can actually use backstab), have the Rogue enter Stealth mode, and then backstab the enemy.

At least then there's enough on screen to argue against a Rogue teleporting.


And this is just the very least they could do. I'd rather they do much more using this concept to make the backstab look realistic.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 juillet 2011 - 04:37 .

[Xalen]

Relix28 wrote...

You do know that you can exploit BRITTLE with Bursting Arrow and it takes 3 points to get it.

FF, no? Unless I'm directly controlling an archer and/or playing with all ranged party this ability is mostly useless.

Archers Lance and Assassinate are top tier abilities that can annihilate elite targets in one shot (sometimes even without CCC), so it makes sense that you have to invest heavily to accuire them.

sure, but when Archer's Lance is the only ability that can exploit (not set up) CCC for archer companions (Kickback upgrade aside) or for Hawke going Shadow + Duelist, CCC's kinda lose their merit. 
And you're left only with DISORIENT, with means a very specific party setup.

Besides, to address your other point: Mighty Blow, Chain Lightning, Spirit Bolt, Scatter (early available abilities) have 300% + [relevant status], it's actually more then "top-tier" Assassinate + BRITTLE (200% post-patch).

Modifié par Xalen, 16 juillet 2011 - 04:53 .

[Relix28]

Xalen wrote...

Relix28 wrote...

You do know that you can exploit BRITTLE with Bursting Arrow and it takes 3 points to get it.

FF, no? Unless I'm directly controlling an archer and/or playing with all ranged party this ability is mostly useless.

Archers Lance and Assassinate are top tier abilities that can annihilate elite targets in one shot (sometimes even without CCC), so it makes sense that you have to invest heavily to accuire them.

sure, but when Archer's Lance is the only ability that can exploit (not set up) CCC for archer companions (Kickback upgrade aside) or for Hawke going Shadow + Duelist, CCC's kinda lose their merit. 
And you're left only with DISORIENT, with means a very specific party setup.

Besides, to address your other point: Mighty Blow, Chain Lightning, Spirit Bolt, Scatter (early available abilities) have 300% + [relevant status], it's actually more then "top-tier" Assassinate + BRITTLE (200% post-patch).

Put some fire resistant runes/equipement on melee pc/companions and you shouldn't suffer too much from Bursting Arrow. Or you can just be a tad more careful and move away once you see those BRITTLE icons appear. And speaking of FF. What about Archers Lance? That thing can outright kill you or your party members in one shot, if you/they are standing in the wrong place. And what about Scatter, Mighty Blow, Schyte, etc...? They can also wipe out your squad, if you are not careful. 

You kinda always need a "specific party setup", if you want to get the most out of your CCC's, wheter it be BRITTLE, STAGGER or DISSORIENT exploitation.

Mighty Blow, Chain Lightining, Spirit Bolt and Scatter usually don't kill elite targets with one shot via CCC. They do a lot less damage than Assassinate and Archers Lance. So those +x% bonuses are more or less irrelevant, when you look at it from a practical perspective.

[Xalen]

@Relix28

All good points, I admit.

Or you can just be a tad more careful and move away once you see those BRITTLE icons appear

thanks, but that's already what I do for Scatter/Mighty blow. Sucks being a rogue with near zero CON. 
The problem is, Bursting arrow setup just not worth it (at least for me) in this case. I mean, not only I have to move out of the way, but 1) I have to sacrifice runes of fortune or other elemental resistances, 2) fire-immune enemies

You kinda always need a "specific party setup", if you want to get the most out of your CCC's, wheter it be BRITTLE, STAGGER or DISSORIENT exploitation.

But in case of archer this is more limited.
Again, DW Hawke can exploit stagger via low-level abilities, s&s - disorient, 2h - brittle. Other CCC comes later with specialization. Mages can exploit whatever they want. That allows to put less emphasis on CCC's available and exploitable in the party, thus - more flexible party (again, a huge plus in an RPG). Archers have only brittle via two top-tier abilities (or bursting arrow, which I don't like very much, like you've gathered), and don't get stagger at all. 

Though it's mostly a theoretic observation on limited party setup, because, granted, no one says you have to have all CCC (after all, 3 mages + Varric is the easiest party I've ever played). It just adds a little bit more versatility.

So those +x% bonuses are more or less irrelevant, when you look at it from a practical perspective.

Yes, you're right. Because these two abilities are hig-damaging by themselves, bonuses are less relevant. My examples were no good, sorry.

I have no objection whatsoever to them being high-cost abilities like they deserve to, I just object to them being [almost] the only CCC abilities. 

[nicethugbert]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

If I have to have a choice between rogues "teleporting" vs. rogues moving at regular speed across the battlefield, I'll live with the teleporting. I'd rather have fast over slow anyday.

I'd rather have Bioware refine the Backstab technique so that the smoke bomb covers a good portion of the field (about as far back as you can actually use backstab), have the Rogue enter Stealth mode, and then backstab the enemy.

At least then there's enough on screen to argue against a Rogue teleporting.


And this is just the very least they could do. I'd rather they do much more using this concept to make the backstab look realistic.

That would be like invisibility.  I don't see the realism in that.

It could alos be more like a haste or rush effect.  But, that is not realistic either.  There simply is no realism possible in this case.  But, it's a fantasy game, no problem for me.

[TEWR]

nicethugbert wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

If I have to have a choice between rogues "teleporting" vs. rogues moving at regular speed across the battlefield, I'll live with the teleporting. I'd rather have fast over slow anyday.

I'd rather have Bioware refine the Backstab technique so that the smoke bomb covers a good portion of the field (about as far back as you can actually use backstab), have the Rogue enter Stealth mode, and then backstab the enemy.

At least then there's enough on screen to argue against a Rogue teleporting.


And this is just the very least they could do. I'd rather they do much more using this concept to make the backstab look realistic.

That would be like invisibility.  I don't see the realism in that.

It could alos be more like a haste or rush effect.  But, that is not realistic either.  There simply is no realism possible in this case.  But, it's a fantasy game, no problem for me.

I don't know. Remember Bursting Arrow's effect that shrouded the character? I think something similar could be used with a smoke bomb. It's not really invisibility.

[nicethugbert]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

If I have to have a choice between rogues "teleporting" vs. rogues moving at regular speed across the battlefield, I'll live with the teleporting. I'd rather have fast over slow anyday.

I'd rather have Bioware refine the Backstab technique so that the smoke bomb covers a good portion of the field (about as far back as you can actually use backstab), have the Rogue enter Stealth mode, and then backstab the enemy.

At least then there's enough on screen to argue against a Rogue teleporting.


And this is just the very least they could do. I'd rather they do much more using this concept to make the backstab look realistic.

That would be like invisibility.  I don't see the realism in that.

It could alos be more like a haste or rush effect.  But, that is not realistic either.  There simply is no realism possible in this case.  But, it's a fantasy game, no problem for me.

I don't know. Remember Bursting Arrow's effect that shrouded the character? I think something similar could be used with a smoke bomb. It's not really invisibility.

But, how does that address the speed issue?  Is there going to be a giant cloud engulfing the area between the rogue and his target, then he runs over in a blink of an eye?

[JoHnDoE14]

 Awesome thread! That's why I love this company; you can't find something like that in any other board!
Anyway, here are my thoughts

• Be innovative with gameplay! Currently, gameplay is either a wave fight or dialogue, which isn't anything special. A great way to improve this, is making each boss fight special. Give them special abilities, different from anything we could have seen so far in the game (illusions, shaping the battleground, resistant to swords, controlling your companions etc). You can even let some of them have key weaknesses, something that the player can take advantage of (Backstabs doing extra damage, taking advantage of the environment, having a special poison that does extra damage to the boss that can be found on a sidequest etc). You can also try making gameplay more varied. Adding puzzles and riddles, or testing the player's memory are very good ways of doing so. Moroever, it is also possible to have 'clever' dialogue, where you have to say certain things to 'win' the encounter (like the dialogue with Morinth in ME2). You can also always create interesting encounters, by combining traps and clever (fighting in a strategic way) enemies
  
  
• Allow warriors to be archers. A complete warrior should be able to fight from distance and in melee, and generally be trained in all forms of warfare.
  
  
• Make loot more interesting. Give descriptions and distinctive names to all items, and make everything special. Give weapons more interesting properties (dispel on hit, charm undead, sure striking weapon, adaptive weapon, stun chance, erecting small walls of fire, etc)
  
  
• Reintroduce skills. Level-ups should be more flavoured, and having to do with more than just combat. That should also help making person's A Hawke totally different from B's

Well, that's all I could think, and hopefully some of these will have their impact on the product. Thanks for reading it and giving us the chance to voice our suggestons! (Sorry for the wall of text though)

Modifié par JoHnDoE14, 17 juillet 2011 - 09:26 .

[Siven80]

I'm a gamer, i play many different genres and dont limit myself to just rpg's. I'm of the mind that the lines of genres are blurring and i find thats a good thing. I liked DAO very much, but some things did get tedious over time.

DA2:
I liked the more responsive and more fluid combat, but did find it a little too fast, slow it down slightly, but not to the ponderous nature of DAO.

I actually didnt miss the overhead camera, but i did want to zoom out a bit more. The overhead camera didnt make DAO tactical, the player and their actions did, the camera just made it easier.

Waves are ok when used sparingly, but bad and tedious when used for every fight.

I would also speed up the animations. Many times i found the animations too slow and you were stuck in place until it was finished which made me feel like i had lost control of the character.

Try to go for realistic as possible while keeping the combat fun, engaging and responsive.

Another combat related improvement i liked in DA2 was fewer abilites to use. Often in DAO my mage could have a full bar (on the PC) of spells, yet really only used a handful of them making a lot of them useless. So i really liked the change DA2 made by having fewer abilites and spells, making each one more useful and then having the ability to upgrade them was fantastic.

But i would still like them to go further with it. Have fewer abilities still but give each one more upgrades and upgrade paths. This could help with even more customisation while also imo, help with the lack of buttons on the console versions.

For example you could have a base attack tree (autoattack) with say 2 different paths each with different passives abilities. One could improve backstabbing if your behind an enemy and the other path could chain attacks and then do a big hit after so many attacks land.

You could then also have a shield sustainable which has several paths that each focus on a more defensive or offensive nature.


The following may be controversial when compared to rpg purists views.

I like loot when its useful, and so hate junk thats just there for cash and to make it feel like there is loot. So when playing DAO i got annoyed with all the useless loot and then the constant swapping of gear on companions. Sure its occasionally nice to change the way a companion looks, but imo there are better ways.

So i liked the unique armor the DA2 companions wore. Kept the tedium of swapping their armor away and they still looked good. It helps differentiate them from npcs and helps reduce loot swapping and the annoyance of junk/useless loot.

In RPG's i play i find myself preferring the upgrade route ME2 used, and also the upgrade style of blade Oils TW2 used to games that drop loot constantly. I found, especially with TW2 that the blade oils helped a lot with customization against specific enemies and was fun and easy to use.

Possibly add a blacksmith crafting system that lets you make upgrades to armor stats and appearances inclucing companions.

I also liked the crafting system in DA2. Simple and effective while keeping tedium at bay (hello DAA runecrafting).

There is no need to make something complex just for the sake of it when it can be just as good if not better when made easier to access.

Also a rather wild idea is to get rid of stamina/mana and just use cooldowns for ability use. Many times in both games i found stamina/mana to be a pain and more annoying than its worth and wished it was more
like ME2 with just cooldowns.  This could make combat more lively, involved and fun.

Modifié par Siven80, 17 juillet 2011 - 01:06 .

[nicethugbert]

JoHnDoE14 wrote...

... or testing the player's memory are very good ways of doing so.  ....

I have an attrocious memory.  I gets tested everyday and fails.  I don't wish to test it anymore.  So, if there are to be memory tests, I will need a way around them.

[Gotholhorakh]

The most important deal-breaker for me:

Please bring back tactical overhead view. This will be worth any number of other fixes.

I have a veritable novel of other things which I will have to try and whittle down to 1 post, but that's the clincher. Fix that, you might even have me replaying and buying DLC and stuff, so I can't help wondering whether other people feel the same.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 17 juillet 2011 - 01:20 .

[In Exile]

Sidney wrote...

I'd also like to see injuries matter - not they "you died" injuries but actually wounding things in combat. As it is stands now there is no difference in effectiveness between a 100 hp and 1 hp. Whatever you imagine hit points to be losing half of them should have some sort of effect on your ability to fight. It would also force me to change my tactics (or at least give a reason to think about it) since right now everyone killing one thing at a time is far more effective than 4 people wounding 4 different aggressors.

I strongly support this, and I've always been against how much incoherent BS HP is. 

[In Exile]

Firky wrote...
Edit: OK, almost shutting up. You know, it did take me until halfway through my first playthrough to figure out how to actually turn off all tactics and behaviours. I couldn't figure out why Anders kept running away from melee etc. I really just wanted him to stand still until I told him what to do. I can appreciate that people who want to just control one character (especially a DW rogue) need tactics and that many other "high level combat players" want them and tailor them very carefully to suit what they are doing, but I just want to feel like I'm playing Baldur's Gate (and controlling everything - because it is party based combat, after all.) 

Nightmare went from almost unplayable to easy for me when I realized that hold party cancels all actions in combat and makes them puppets, because I have the same playstyle as you. It also makes it possible to take advantage of certain warrior traits from the battlemaster tree.

Oh, and btw, I LOVE walking bomb. Heheh. It has wiped out my entire party so many times. (I don't know if its coincidence or designed that way, but whoever I've cast it on seems to do a suicide run into my party at the last second. But, used in CCCs with Varric's crowd control abilities, and with a nearly dead enemy in a cluster = brilliant. Love it. Very, very risky.)

If you roll a mage, get force mage powers (or use Anders +paralyzing rune). This way, you can trap enemies and then waking bomb them to death. It insta-wipes them if you cluster them right. 

[Sidney]

nicethugbert wrote...


That would be like invisibility.  I don't see the realism in that.

It could alos be more like a haste or rush effect.  But, that is not realistic either.  There simply is no realism possible in this case.  But, it's a fantasy game, no problem for me.

I can't get too upset abpout the backstabs in DA2 since from DAO you could just "vanish" in plain view of all foes. The backflippy animations on the bag guys were silly - not sure how that is stealthy - but the whole rogue "vanihsing" thing is an eye roller no matter how it is done.

[frustratemyself]

Removing the 95% cap on elemental resistance would be nice, for spirit in particular. It's taking the fun out of using Walking Bomb when I have to keep reloading cause Anders goes bomber brat on my party.
It's not as much of a pain with mage Hawke but it's becoming a nuisance for my rogue.

[element eater]

nicethugbert wrote...

I don't really care what you want.  I just want a bunch of sliders to adjust the game to my liking.  You do whatever you want as long as it doens't get in my way.  Peace.

well said

[Firky]

In Exile wrote...

Nightmare went from almost unplayable to easy for me when I realized that hold party cancels all actions in combat and makes them puppets, because I have the same playstyle as you. It also makes it possible to take advantage of certain warrior traits from the battlemaster tree.

If you roll a mage, get force mage powers (or use Anders +paralyzing rune). This way, you can trap enemies and then waking bomb them to death. It insta-wipes them if you cluster them right. 

I'd really like to know how many people play with everything turned off. I suppose not that many. And, yes, hold person is necessary just to get the party spread out enough for me. *shrugs* I've gotten used to playing without the overhead view, but I still need everyone standing apart.

I'm playing mage but went spirit healer. I don't really have anything that sticks enemies to the ground at the moment. I don't know if its a glitch, but confusion works great at keeping enemies standing in one spot for a bit, but as soon as I cast walking bomb on someone, it seems to wake them up and they come back into the action.