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Dragon Age moving forward: gameplay feature discussion


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#201
csfteeeer

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Blastback wrote...

One way o do companion outfits is to have each companion have a unique outfit that levels up with them to stay in the top tier, but let players swap them into other outfits if they want.
Also, I think this has been mentioned but hey, have the auto attack be more than just repeating the same four or five moves in a row then repeating.  Origins may have done this, but if it did, I never noticed.  I did in DA2, and it made combat feel less exciting.


This.
i forgot that too, i think they should make some armors that are completely exclusive to the companions, but let the player chose which one they use.

#202
Leoroc

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Luke Barrett wrote...

How does everyone feel about the combat direction after playing Legacy DLC? Are we on the right track?


Yes, having the Genlocks hiding behind their shields and stuff was cool. As was having the carta guys come out of the doorways and stuff.

My biggest problem with combat right now is A) lack of revive abilities (only Mage Hawke and Anders get something to revive a dead guy, the potion is cool but not useful if they're gonna die a few seconds after it triggers). I think the bigger problem is that using revive requires using two abilities (Panacea and Spirit Healing) rather than just hitting Revive. 

I vastly prefer the old potions system. A bit more micromanaging but a helluva a lot more tactical/useful.

Camera control while paused: If we can't have the old top down back, no big deal to me, but got let us scroll around the map so we can target things.

AI: This has been bugging me a lot in Legacy, it wasn't really an issue before, but when I say Hold Position dammit don't move unless I specifically tell you to! I need Anders not to run into the middle of a room filled with archers.

#203
Morroian

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Luke Barrett wrote...

How does everyone feel about the combat direction after playing Legacy DLC? Are we on the right track?

Definitely on the right track with waves not being prevalent and when they did come they didn't just pop into existence. Plus the combat areas and the encounter design were far better offering more tactical play.

I do think you need to change the combat animations for DA3 to revert back to a more gritty approach and perhaps still slow combat down a notch although with the better encounter design as featured in Legacy the speed is perhaps not a big issue.

#204
Ryoufu

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Luke Barrett wrote...

How does everyone feel about the combat direction after playing Legacy DLC? Are we on the right track?


imo,the legacy dlc was pretty amazing.the way the enemies were placed like in the beginning where the archers are standing on the platforms while the main brawlers were in the middle.i know even in the random street fights the archers are standing at a distance away from the center of the battle but the way they are positioned makes them really easy to take down,along with anything beside them.in legacy,you had to work your way to get to them,which i rather enjoyed.the boss fights were intense and very challenging.i like how when you fight that dwarf(forgot his name :P) there were archers positioned atop a platform sniping you and you had to take them out ASAP otherwise they would be your downfall.not to mention one of them could activate a trap that could spell doom if not taken care of quickly which added to the fun/challenging factor.sure there were some parts where they would spawn by waves,but the variety of enemies i had to fight distracted me from that thought.i absolutely LOVED the genlock with the heavy shield!At first I thought,"ok im just gonna make everyone smash right into him and leave it on auto-attack".boy,was i wrong.then I figured,"hmm maybe if I attack him from behind i would do more damage?".and sure enough,it did.I hope in future installments you would make some enemies feel like "puzzle"enemies--figuring out how to take them out/maximize damage.another good example is that revenant summoned  by Janeka with 3(or was it 4?) emmisaries that sort of buffed the revenant.I guess the reason why iI loved these enemies was because I play too much demon's souls :P

let me repeat myself,THIS DLC WAS AMAZING.can't wait for any future installments!

#205
Jonp382

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Luke Barrett wrote...

How does everyone feel about the combat direction after playing Legacy DLC? Are we on the right track?


Yes. Imo, Legacy was better than the entirety of Dragon Age 2 just based off the combat. Sure would be nice to have a free-roaming targeting system for movement and area of effects though, sorta like in the early previews of Mass Effect.(around 1:35) Would have made it even more enjoyable.

#206
pagerunner

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Legacy was fab, other than the boss battle that smelled far too much of "learn the ONE RIGHT WAY TO DO THIS or you'll die forever, muahahaha."

Being one of those weirdo players who's there for the plot, the characters and the story choices and really doesn't enjoy combat a whole lot, I mostly want the gameplay mechanics to get as far out of my way as possible. If combat manages to be fun anyway, you're doing all right. (The fact that I went through the fuss of finding optional battles and whatnot -- mostly in pursuit of any extra dialogue or whatever, but still -- kind of surprises me. :)  But in the same vein, gameplay/combat things that make no story sense at all -- and there are several -- REALLY grate on me. Hawke or your Warden using blood magic with total impunity and characters who otherwise hate it making no protest? Makes no sense. Siding with the mages and having Orsino turn on you anyway, which pretty much screams "well, the usual expectation at the end of games is big boss battle, so we've gotta do what eeeeeveryone does and make him a big boss battle"? Makes no sense. If the mechanics of Hitting Monsters With Sticks start damaging the logic of the world, then it becomes far less of a cohesive experience and far more "well, here's Standard RPG with a veneer of story slapped on," and I know well enough from the things you DO do well, far more often than most companies, that that's not what you're aiming for. ;)

Modifié par pagerunner, 28 juillet 2011 - 06:13 .


#207
San Diego Thief

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combat is still way too fast

Modifié par San Diego Thief, 28 juillet 2011 - 07:49 .


#208
Avissel

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Luke Barrett wrote...

How does everyone feel about the combat direction after playing Legacy DLC? Are we on the right track?


Absolutly resoundingly yes. I was quite happy for the return to logical enemy placement as opposed to people in plate armor falling from the sky.

I also greatly enjoyed the Genlock Alphas use of the shield to blend into the enveronmentand hide until it was amubsh time, a very nice effect.

The only critisicm I really have of the combat was the final battle, navigateing through the rock maze portion was an incredible pain, but that was more due to pathing AI than anything else.

#209
nicethugbert

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Combat is still way too slow.

#210
Eudaemonium

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I'm going to add my voice to the "right direction" crowd. I was originally writing a short response, but it kind of went on a bit, so I'm breaking it down into sections.

General Combat re:Legacy

The combat variety in Legacy was very well done, much better than the main game. Waves occurred when they made sense, like with the burrowing genlocks and deepstalkers. I think these are examples of waves done well,a nd when they are infrequent they add a tactical element in that the player does not expect them. In the main game you always expected 2-3 waves, so it got old quickly and you paced your ability use. Waves should be an unexpected (but sensible) element that confuses your battle plans and puts you in a dfficult position.

Enemy placement and their use of the environment were also greatly improved. The Carta archers on raised platforms and the enemy use of traps in the hideout were excellent examples that required quick thinking and action. The Genlock Alpha behaviour was especially nice, particularly the way they used their shields to blend in with the scenery to stage ambushes. One good example that stood out to me was at one point in the tower. You enter through a door and a Genlock Alpha is disguised to your right and charges when you approach. I retreated across the room to evade it, only to be caught in a pincer attack by a Hurlock Alpha and some bolters. So now I had an army of Hurlocks at my back and a chrging Genlock alpha barrelling towards me. Fun times!

Enemy Type Behaviour

One of my complaints about the original game was that the enemy types didn't diversify enough. For example, the moment I identified an enemy as an assassin-type (whether Templar Hunter, Rage Demon, Carta Assassin) I could adopt the exact same tactics to defeat them (immunities notwithstanding). They didn;t really have anything unique to differentiate them, even in the realm of abilities: just backstabs. By contrast, when I was fighting the Genlock Alpha I felt like I was fighting a Genlock Alpha, not the same generic 'bruiser' type of enemy. While they behaved similarly to brontos and ogres in that they charged from distance, the shield giving them damage immunity from the front meant I needed more specific tactics. I couldn't, for example, lure one into a doorway to block off its allies and wail on it, since they required flanking, which meant I had to engage them in a more open field where they could charge and I could get flanked myself. Giving different subsets of the broad enemy types specific unique atributes and abilities (like the shield) would really help to diversify combat in the future.

Boss Battles

Corypheus is probably my favourite boss battle in DA. I spent the entire fight on the edge of my seat, wondering what ridiculous stuff he was going to pull out next. A lot of people say it is 'gimmicky' rather than difficult, and I believe one of the devs (was it you?) said it was more mechanical and that the secret boss fight was more typically difficult. I should say that the 'mechanical' element was what I really liked about it. Some people might just want a boss with high HP and attacks that they can wail on for 30 minutes while sporadically downing health pots, but I like major boss fights to be at least slightly gimmicky. Corypheus is the best example, with him changing the shape of the battlefield and forcing you to adapt. The best example in vanilla DA2 is probably the Ancient Rock Wraith, where you have to utilise the pillars in the arena to block his attacks. The High Dragon is another lesser example: she retreats at set points and sets her offspring on you while raining fire from above, meaning you constantly have to be on the move while fighting the smaller dragons and dragonlings. To me, these are all good boss fights because they required me to adapt to changing circumstances and (with the ARW) utilise the terrain to my advantage. I remember them because they were difficult and interesting in more ways than just 'hit with sword, drink potion, hit more, repeat til fade'. I was disappointed in my initial playthrough that I found Xebenkeck and Hybris boring and standard by comparison, only made tricky because of their copious minions than by any specific behaviour (and heck, I still think Awiergan Scrolls 2 is harder than Hybris). After the ARW, I found both the other end-of-act bosses pretty tactically dull by comparison, though Meredith spiced things up a bit with her energy blasts and animated statues (I found Meredith's to be an impressive battle rather than a difficult one).

General Gameplay Points (not Legacy-related)

I like the Unique Outfits for companions - I hated having all my rogues in Drakeskin and my mages in atrocious robes in DAO. But I would also like more variety in stat customisation. One suggestion would be to have a certain number of customisable slots on a companion outfit where a variety of upgrades could be attached. You wouldn't necessarily need the specific 4 upgrades for each companion, you could have a selection of say 30 misc upgrades that affected different stats and could be applied in any order and combination. Basically this would work like rune slots, but with more variety in the selectable effects.

Regarding companion talents, I think the unique specialisations were a massive step in the right direction, since it gives all the companions a role and unique skills to differentiate them. Although there is some redundancy as a result (Varric is 9/10 better than Sebastian, for example). Granted, this system means I can't ever do a playthrough like my last DAO Nightmare run, where I tanked with an Arcane Warrior Wynne wearing the Diligance set and grabbing agro with healing aura (the rest of my party was Zevran, Sten and a DW/Archer hybrid rogue - so yeah...). But I can live with that.

#211
BobWalt

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 As has been mentioned Mages have been nerfed.  The the number and quality of the spells have been seriously limited.  Looking at the skills trees it may seem OK but in practice it is not as it takes too long to get through the prerequisites.

The cooldown for some of the spells is also too long leaving the mage with only his staff.  Many of the more useful spells like Mass Paralysis is missing. 

It also appears that many spell combos are no longer present. 

There should be no cooldown on health and lyriuym potions.  Especially Lyrium potions most especially Lyrium potions.

Stealth has been made useless. There should be no time limit on stealth.

Warriors should not have area effect attacks.  Something shouldn't be there just because it seems cool.  There are reasons for having a party.

Character should stay where you put them right now they go running into combat the tactics settings are a waste.

There have been alot of complaints about not having an overhead view but I really did not miss it.

Healing spells need to be expanded  and made more attractive choices.   Perhaps Mages should be allowed more skill points although that seems more like a workaround than a fix.

And, of course, we need to be able to equip our companions.

BTW-I think it is great that BioWare has asked for this input!

#212
Firky

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Hey! I posted in this thread a while ago that I was vaguelly irked by being able to dodge Commanders melee attacks too easily. I'm playing Legacy at the moment, and I'm up to a Hurlock Alpha, and Varric + Carver and I cannot dodge him at all.

Can anyone confirm this for me? Do big melee dudes, like this guy now have a couple of melee attacks? I'm sure I'm seeing three with Mr Hurlock Alpha. He has a left swing, a right swing and an overhead attack. Edit: Oh, and like a frontal assault thing.

It's really cool! (Because it's much more difficult to dodge him, so I'm playing more "traditionally.")

Modifié par Firky, 29 juillet 2011 - 09:51 .


#213
lizzbee

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Gah! Legacy should be called Dragon Age: Knocked on Your Hind End. I'm really sick of being thrown on my hiney every couple of seconds. Brontos, hurlock alphas, genlock alphas, ogres. No matter how you fight, what you do, and whatnot, you end up eating endless floor. I still haven't made it through, even though I've been playing at it vaguely for a couple of days. It's a shame, because I'm actually enjoying the conversational aspects and character interaction.

#214
Firky

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^ I'm not entirely sure, because my build style changed while they were patching the game, but I think one of the patches tempered knockbacks already, in the base game. I'm finding that I'm getting knocked back a fair bit, by higher tier enemies, in Legacy, like you are saying, but I'm happy to be, because it's because I can't anticipate their melee attacks. (I recall in the base game, at release, being knocked back by everything, archer critters, critter melee creatures etc.) At least it seems better balanced in Legacy; big things knock you back, little things don't.

#215
lizzbee

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Firky wrote...

^ I'm not entirely sure, because my build style changed while they were patching the game, but I think one of the patches tempered knockbacks already, in the base game. I'm finding that I'm getting knocked back a fair bit, by higher tier enemies, in Legacy, like you are saying, but I'm happy to be, because it's because I can't anticipate their melee attacks. (I recall in the base game, at release, being knocked back by everything, archer critters, critter melee creatures etc.) At least it seems better balanced in Legacy; big things knock you back, little things don't.


I'm anticipating the attacks quite well.  Strike one of said bulldozer creatures, get knocked over.  Pretty much any approach any character makes triggers a knockdown of your entire party.  It's really irritating.  This whole "knockback" mechanism they built into DA2's combat is one of my biggest irritants, and since every battle has one hurlock alpha and one genlock alpha, knocking back is pretty much a two-times-a-second affair.  My dual-wielding rogue says, "Whee!" when she flies, and passes out when she hits the dirt.  Fun! :P

#216
Giltspur

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Luke Barrett wrote...

How does everyone feel about the combat direction after playing Legacy DLC? Are we on the right track?


I thought so.  It just doesn't feel like Dragon Age unless there are archers perched somewhere and shooting at me.  And hey that happened some in Legacy.

At any rate, what I really liked about the Genlock Alpha is that it felt like its own creature.  What I mean is, it had a defense (a shield) that I had to react to (by getting behind it).  I also liked that I had to watch out for charges from it and brontos.  In general, I like it when there are salient points in a battle that must be noticed and addressed.  Maybe that sounds generic, but it's my best estimation of what I like.  So how's that different than DAII?  Hmm, perhaps there wasn't enough variety in DAII's "problems to be solved", which for me often seemed to be "kill the assassins and don't stand near glowy orbs that are about to explode".  

#217
Guest_Sareth Cousland_*

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Hi Luke, here's my input on combat gameplay.

I suggest to start where Origins left off and improve on what was lacking there. A good idea may be to hire an external consultant familiar with ancient/medieval fighting techniques to create proper attacks and weapon speeds. I think the attack speed for two-handed weapons in the original game was way too slow. Mo-Cap may be the way to go if the dev budget allows it.

Generally, I am one of those advocating a more realistic type of combat gameplay - nevertheless, as this is not Baldur's Gate, but a third person RPG, it is a step in the right direction to make the combat more visceral (without falling into the "awesome" trap of DA2). Maybe you can work with sound and the force of impact to make the combat feel more real and direct.

A good idea may be to add critical hits - not only decapitations, but a variety of critical hits that are visible and decrease the enemy's performance. Please bring back slo-mo deathblows as in Origins, these were really rewarding.

Another idea that is based on the spell combos of Origins: Create secret combos that maximize your attacks' effectiveness - i.e. if an attack connects, there are certain special attacks that need to follow that first swing for extra damage, extra critical chance, stun chance etc. This can be developed as far as desired - a certain chain of three successful special attacks, if executed successfully, may have an added effect, for instance. This is basically the same as "storm of the century", but on a melee base. It also makes combat more immersive.

That's all for now, maybe I'll write more later.

Modifié par Sareth Cousland, 02 août 2011 - 05:34 .


#218
Kelleth

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Here is a few of my ideas which I think Dragon Age could do with =)

First off.
Most RPG's have a One Hander and Shield spec and Two Hander spec, but very few have a One Handed only spec. So I would like to suggest one of these.
They could be a more crit oriented spec with focus on crit and more damage than the Sword and Shield but less damage than Two Hander.

Second.
Speciel Kill moves with an on/off toggle... I miss them.

Thirdly.
Weapon sheaths, how come these aren't in game? It is not an MMO, there are no magnets like in Mass Effect and Halo and why are my One hander on my back and not my belt? Anyway, I think a weapon sheath would bring a tiny bit more "immersion" into the game =)

That is about all I can think of =)

#219
Sylvius the Mad

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Luke Barrett wrote...

For comparable stats would you prefer that your characters had insane amounts of HP as well? You can't really do it the opposite way otherwise all your damage would like very underwhelming and big numbers is a huge draw for a lot of people (for some reason). I agree that the damage:hp ratio being completely reversed between players and enemies often makes for some very bizarre events.

You could still have big numbers - the numbers just wouldn't always mean the same thing.

For example, if I swing my sword and hit an enemy, I do 1000 damage.  But if I hit my companion, I do only 20 damage.  Similarly, if my enemy hit me for 10 damage, then any FF effect that hits him should hit for 500 damage.  Use the same factor (in my example, the factor was 50) to scale the numbers so that people can have the big numbers they like, but under the hood make everything symmetrical.

It doesn't matter what the numbers are.  It matters how the events affect people.

#220
JoHnDoE14

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Luke Barrett wrote...

How does everyone feel about the combat direction after playing Legacy DLC? Are we on the right track?


I'd say yes. However there were still enemies materializng out of thin ait (like in the deepstalker fight), but it was a very good gameplay experience nontheless.

#221
Guest_Sareth Cousland_*

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...

For comparable stats would you prefer that your characters had insane amounts of HP as well? You can't really do it the opposite way otherwise all your damage would like very underwhelming and big numbers is a huge draw for a lot of people (for some reason). I agree that the damage:hp ratio being completely reversed between players and enemies often makes for some very bizarre events.

You could still have big numbers - the numbers just wouldn't always mean the same thing.

For example, if I swing my sword and hit an enemy, I do 1000 damage.  But if I hit my companion, I do only 20 damage.  Similarly, if my enemy hit me for 10 damage, then any FF effect that hits him should hit for 500 damage.  Use the same factor (in my example, the factor was 50) to scale the numbers so that people can have the big numbers they like, but under the hood make everything symmetrical.

It doesn't matter what the numbers are.  It matters how the events affect people.


I would suggest to go for smaller numbers. Three-digit damage should be the exception (for a dragon attack, for example). It is weird if numbers go in the hundreds or thousands when there is enough precision in smaller numbers to make the mechanics work.

Modifié par Sareth Cousland, 03 août 2011 - 08:33 .


#222
B3NGU1N

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Legacy combat was absolutly fantastic. If every encounter in DA3 is like legacy it will be a magnificant game. The waves made sense, and the battles were actually fun rather than a grind fest. The last boss was the best boss in any DA game. He was hard, but I loved every moment of it as i never knew what he was going to do next, making him feel like a powerful bad ass rather than a HP ****.

The actual combat gameplay is sound. The verocity of the combat is fantastic and I often find myself wanting to fight just so i can play it. If anything, i would like to see my attacks doing damage on the enemies health bar. Keep the same DPS, but possibly have the attacks one tenth slower but making them hit harder.

Skills trees are very good. I like being able to go either way and still get the same end result. I would prefer more in depth trees however. For example I could go one of two ways with the Weapon and Sheild, either a tank-y character, or a DPS guy, and then run out of talent points so I couldnt have both. Obviously the pathways would have to have more skills on them, but im sure you can see where im coming from.

I would also like companions to be able to do more things. I liked each being especially good at sometihng, but id like them also to be satisfactory at others. Merril, for example, cant heal, which means I have to take Anders everywhere if Im not playing a mage. Anders should have his specialities, like group heal and stuff, but Merril should also be able to do some healing so that I can take her instead of Anders around all the time.

In relation to companion armour, possibly having a bunch of visble upgrades to it? I think that would solve some issues. Like having a shoulde rpad that you can chose to put on or not, sometihng along those lines.

#223
Sylvius the Mad

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Sareth Cousland wrote...

I would suggest to go for smaller numbers. Three-digit damage should be the exception (for a dragon attack, for example). It is weird if numbers go in the hundreds or thousands when there is enough precision in smaller numbers to make the mechanics work.

While I would agree, apparently enough people really like the big numbers that not having them isn't a viable option.

But there is a way to have giant numbers without breaking the mechanics as DA2 did.

#224
Sylvius the Mad

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Either slow it down, or give us a tactical camera. In DA2, it's difficult to observe all of the party members and enemies simultaneously. Ideally I'd like to see a tactical camera plus slower combat. It doesn't need to be as slow as DAO, but slow enough that we can take the time to enjoy watching the animations without sacrificing control of all of the characters.

I haven't yet played the combat in Legacy. I had been told prior to its release that it could be played at any point during DA2, but in fact you cannot play it until Act II, so I had to get to Act II first. Which I have now done, but I need a new PSU before I can play any further.

#225
Giltspur

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Regarding combat speed, there is one thing I didn't like about DAII.  It is possible I'm just mistaken or have cruddy perception.  But if I'm playing DAO and I pause it and line up cone of cold on some people, when I unpause it, it's going to hit them. In DA2, I can't do that quite as well: when I unpause, they might dribble out of the way.  It's like I tilt my spell to adapt for them...like an archer firing in the wind.  I don't care for that change in feel.  I like threading an aoe spell between party members and maximizing the enemies I hit in DAO.  Again maybe I'm crazy, but it seems like DA2 is worse about this sort of thing...as though DAO felt better in transition from pause to play.