174 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

After a few villages got turned into walking corpses, the healer in every village model may have been seen as discredited.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Fully trained or no, all mages are possible victims of possession.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Leader in Haven was Father Kolgrim who was a Reaver not a mage. He does have choice and unflattering things to say about the current Chantry's stance towards mages if you side with him and ask him.

-Polaris

Do you remember what he says? I never did side with him.

PC: This is blood magic. It is forbidden.
Kolgrim: By the Chantry that was established by those that murdered the first Andraste. Why should you care what they forbid? <sounds a little annoyed, accusing>
Kolgrim: Your Chantry does not know the Maker better than any other man, woman, or child. It only pretends to. <scornful>

That's it, and it's before you side with him if you choose the right dialogue options.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 12 juillet 2011 - 11:56 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Fully trained or no, all mages are possible victims of possession.

Just as likely as stepping into a ditch and dying . But that doesnt excuse the chantry not using mages for the common good. But we already know why the chantry prohibits using mages for healing purposes.

[TEWR]

because the Chantry is comprised of idiots

[Marduksdragon]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Leader in Haven was Father Kolgrim who was a Reaver not a mage. He does have choice and unflattering things to say about the current Chantry's stance towards mages if you side with him and ask him.

-Polaris

Do you remember what he says? I never did side with him.

PC: This is blood magic. It is forbidden.
Kolgrim: By the Chantry that was established by those that murdered the first Andraste. Why should you care what they forbid? <sounds a little annoyed, accusing>
Kolgrim: Your Chantry does not know the Maker better than any other man, woman, or child. It only pretends to. <scornful>

That's it, and it's before you side with him if you choose the right dialogue options.

And this is one of the reasons I like Kolgrim somewhat despite usually killing him. That is a piercing statement.

[Wulfram]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Because clearly frightened young children with no control over their powers are exactly the same as fully trained mages.

Not the same, of course.  The vast majority of mages would no doubt do a lot of good.  But it doesn't take many zombie villages to make people start thinking that they don't want a Mage in their back yard.

Modifié par Wulfram, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:31 .

[nightscrawl]

Wulfram wrote...

Mages are used as a military asset, against Darkspawn and Qunari. And sometimes even to hunt down mages, it would seem. Trusted mages can get leave to be absent from the tower alone for extended periods, too. Wynne, for example, and Ines the botanist in Awakening.

But that passage does seem to be rather more positive about magic than is current practice. Note also that Magic is referred to as a gift from the Maker, while it is only those who misuse it who are called accursed.

When mentioning things like this you must remember that when it comes to circles they are all different. I can't imagine mages from Kirkwall or Starkhaven being given a day pass, no matter how trusted they are. To be honest, Ferelden's circle seems more the exeption than the rule. Anders's comment about Ferelden's circle being "more fun, everybody's kissing everybody," being an example.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Wulfram wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Because clearly frightened young children with no control over their powers are exactly the same as fully trained mages.

Not the same, of course.  The vast majority of mages would no doubt do a lot of good.  But it doesn't take many zombie villages to make people start thinking that they don't want a Mage in their back yard.

From a child mage who was illegally taught by a fugitive apostate with no teaching experience whatsoever. Honestly, assuming a well-adjusted properly-trained adult mage will go the same way as Connor is just stupid. Mages need education and a place in society, not abuse and complete isolation.

[Wulfram]

nightscrawl wrote...

When mentioning things like this you must remember that when it comes to circles they are all different. I can't imagine mages from Kirkwall or Starkhaven being given a day pass, no matter how trusted they are.

Mharen, the Mage whose death Emeric investigated, seems to have been allowed to go out on dates - though I suppose she may have been sneaking out, since, even in Act 3, that doesn't seem to have been either difficult or rare.  And Karras responds positively to Varric's lie that Hawke is an Enchanter sent from Ferelden to hunt down the escaped mages

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

From a child mage who was illegally taught by a fugitive apostate with
no teaching experience whatsoever. Honestly, assuming a well-adjusted
properly-trained adult mage will go the same way as Connor is just
stupid. Mages need education and a place in society, not abuse and
complete isolation.

Assuming no well-adjusted properly-trained adult mage will succumb to demonic possession is foolish.  Most of them won't, but that doesn't mean you're going to be comfortable with them in your village.

Uldred was a Senior Enchanter, trusted by the First Enchanter to be in charge of looking for blood magic.

An analogy I'd make is nuclear power plants.  They have their uses, and are actually pretty safe nowadays.  But most people won't welcome them being built near where they live.

[CrimsonZephyr]

I'm not sure how well-adjusted Uldred was. I think he was more of a snake than anyone let on. Think about it. Why was he a blood mage catcher who ultimately used blood magic? Because leading a witch hunt would ultimately draw attention away from himself. It's just speculation, of course, but treating Uldred as the exemplar goes too far. And one has to wonder whether he would have gotten as high as he did if the Templars didn't have a knee-jerk reaction to any suggestion of blood magic.

And being a mage doesn't make one devoid of a brain or personal morality, both of which are effective countermeasures against making a pact with Cthulhu. A nuclear power plant has no sentience, which a living being does, and there is simply no way to stamp out human desires and needs without ironically creating the problems they seek to avoid. Why would a mage bother to follow establish moral standards regarding blood magic when all they get for their compliance is almost universal disrespect, discrimination, and the occasional rape and death?

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 12 juillet 2011 - 05:27 .

[Huntress]

ROFL at Wulfram.. Uldred was stuck in the tower as all the mages are, he wasn't free, he was a sick man, half-crazy and he wanted to get out.. he lost his life the moment he agree with the demon.

Have you notes how many sane mages are in thedas? 8-9 that includes MY warden mage/hawke/Beth.
jailed without any reason or for a what might happen is not seen kindly even today.
you comparing mages to nuclear building... Check with the doctor please.. do it before you start jumping off building thinking you can fly, second thought, please jump today.

[Huntress]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Fully trained or no, all mages are possible victims of possession.

Possible:

Able to be done; within the power or capacity of someone or something- surely it's not possible for a man to live so long?- what are the possible alternatives?- contact me as soon as possible- I'd like the report this afternoon, if possibleAble to happen although not certain to; denoting a fact, event, or situation that may or may not occur or be so- a new theory emerged about the possible cause of the plane crash- it is possible that he will have to return to the hospitalAble to be or become; potential- he was a possible future customerHaving as much or as little of a specified quality as can be achieved- children need the best education possible- the shortest possible route(of a number or score) As high as is achievable in a test, competition, or game- he scored 723 points out of a possible 900[/list]

[GavrielKay]

Mages are a natural occurrence. They should be treated like any other potential natural disaster: prepare for the worst while going about your life. The fact that people would prefer that hurricanes and earthquakes didn't exist doesn't stop many of them from living in areas where those things happen on a regular basis. People learn to live with risk. They should learn to live with the mages too.

Using fear to justify treating mages as inhuman is morally wrong. Proper training for the mages and for Templars is taking sane precautions against a potential natural disaster. Locking up mages using fear as an excuse is going too far.

The "right" of the general public to not be afraid should in no way trump the mages rights as sentient beings who want to live their own lives.

The common folk have spent 1000 years fearing mages due mostly to Chantry teachings. They are only exposed to the bad mages because the good ones are locked away. Let the good mages out where they can heal the sick, put out village fires, excavate the town wells etc and you'd start to actually change society.

That villagers would prefer not to live next door to mages because they have spent generations being ignorant and fearful does not at all justify continuing the oppression.

[GavrielKay]

Wulfram wrote...
Assuming no well-adjusted properly-trained adult mage will succumb to demonic possession is foolish.  Most of them won't, but that doesn't mean you're going to be comfortable with them in your village.

Given we've never seen a well-adjusted mage, I find it hard to believe you know what would happen.  We see mages who follow the rules and live isolated in circles.  These may occasionally think they are well-adjusted but I'd have to disagree.  Humans (and presumably elves) may make some kind of peace with their imprisonment, but I'd hardly call it well-adjusted.  And on the other side we see apostates and malificar.  Neither of these groups could be considered terribly normal.  Both are constantly hunted and fearful of being caught and either imprisoned or killed.

Perhaps if you let (fully trained) mages live a normal life they would be less likely to give in to demons.  Give them familiy, community, a sense of belonging...  in short, give them something that they can value more than demonic temptations.  Then you'll actually get to see what well-adjusted mages act like.

If you treat someone as nothing more than a potentially violent animal, they are more likely to live down to your expectations.

[Wulfram]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I'm not sure how well-adjusted Uldred was.

Uldred certainly wasn't well-adjusted.  But by all appearances, he was thought so by the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander, and that is the problem

edit: and I wonder if living isolated in the country as an object of fear and hatred, fearing themselves that any mischance or sickness might be blamed on their supposed malign influence, would leave them any more "well adjusted" than those who live among their peers in the comparative safety that the circle provides.  I also wonder where these well adjusted mages will come from - if you will not be inflicted half trained boys on the general populace, then surely these well adjusted mages will have to come from the Circle that you claim is making them maladjusted?

Modifié par Wulfram, 12 juillet 2011 - 07:49 .

[GavrielKay]

Wulfram wrote...
edit: and I wonder if living isolated in the country as an object of fear and hatred, fearing themselves that any mischance or sickness might be blamed on their supposed malign influence, would leave them any more "well adjusted" than those who live among their peers in the comparative safety that the circle provides.  I also wonder where these well adjusted mages will come from - if you will not be inflicted half trained boys on the general populace, then surely these well adjusted mages will have to come from the Circle that you claim is making them maladjusted?

It could take generations to calm the populace and convince them that the once in a lifetime zombie village is just part of life and unlikely to happen to them.  Just because it will take time and be difficult doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

There is a big difference between a circle that kidnaps children and locks them up for life and a boarding school that teaches them how to best use their abilities for the good of all once they complete their training and go free.  That should be obvious.

[Wulfram]

GavrielKay wrote...

It could take generations to calm the populace and convince them that the once in a lifetime zombie village is just part of life and unlikely to happen to them.  Just because it will take time and be difficult doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

All I wished was that you acknowledge that there would be difficulties.

The thing people tend to get wrong is the causation.  The Chantry reflects peoples fear of mages, it does not create it.  Though it would be better if it calmed those fears rather than reinforced them

There is a big difference between a circle that kidnaps children and locks them up for life and a boarding school that teaches them how to best use their abilities for the good of all once they complete their training and go free.  That should be obvious.

But would you allow parents to refuse sending their children to this boarding school?  If not, it will have to go into the business of kidnapping.  And if, at the end of their training, they do not seem safe to go free, what then?  Will you allow them to leave, to perhaps cause death and destruction to the innocent, and to blacken the name of all Mages?  Or will your boarding school also become a prison?

[Sinaxi]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Wasn't one of the books you could gift Wynne a tome that suggested Andraste was actually a mage? I want to see this become a future plot point.

Yes, I mentioned that in one of those Anders threads I think. I really like that idea, that instead of being some supposed "chosen" of the Maker that Andraste was really just a powerful mage intent on freeing slaves for the common good. It certainly would be ironic given that the Chantry condemns mages for esentially commiting the first sin and then one of the Maker's chosen turns out to be a mage. lol

[CrimsonZephyr]

It will be difficult, of course, very difficult, but with dedicated leaders, it's possible. As for families, it would be necessary to decentralize the Circle. Have a Circle in every city, rather than one per country. There are several practical advantages:

1.) Fewer mages would be concentrated in one area. The possibility of violent and all-encompassing mage rebellions lessen.

2.) When mages are needed, they could be easily summoned. Saying some enchanting is needed in Gwaren. It would be infinitely more practical to go down the street, rather than across the country.

3.) More public exposure, therefore greater integration, therefore greater understanding. Laws and police forces would be forced to adapt to the presence of mages, rather than rely on the supranational Chantry, which can cause state/church separation issues as seen with Meredith's takeover of Kirkwall.

There is also the fact that a Circle in every city would mean that parents would be in closer contact. A child taken in Highever would be trained in Highever, therefore. The child would not be as isolated, knowing that their parents are down the street or in another part of town, and the parents would be less reluctant, because they aren't in the middle of nowhere. Plus, the Circle gives children an education, but it should do more than that. Give them jobs, a source of income, and then reinvest that revenue into the rest of the country.

There are dangers with freer mages, but with responsible policing and greater integration, Thedas could actually profit on all fronts.

[Mr.House]

Because locking up the mages and using lyruim for the Templars creates trade with the dwarfs which then brings in a lot of profit for the Chantry. They have a monopoly of the lyruim trade on the surface, that's the real reason why they lock mages up.

*Waits for Chantry supporters to say something*

[Sinaxi]

As far as what the line "magic exists to serve man not rule over him" I'm not going to speculate on how it's supposed to be interpreted in the original text but in the "modern" day Thedas you generally hear people saying it to mages as like some sort of reasoning about why they are in the circle, why they do their Harrowing's, etc. Because their magic isn't supposed to "rule" over them (resisting abominations) and also because they don't want mages using their power for their own personal gain. So I kind of feel like it's been warped to almost be kind of like propaganda in a way. Since basically it has been turned into a "this is why mages need to be watched carefully!"

[Wulfram]

There are multiple circles in some countries already. The free marches has at least Starkhaven and Kirkwall, and the wiki claims there are others too.