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"Magic exists to serve man..." am I missing something?


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#51
GavrielKay

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Wulfram wrote...
But would you allow parents to refuse sending their children to this boarding school?  If not, it will have to go into the business of kidnapping.  And if, at the end of their training, they do not seem safe to go free, what then?  Will you allow them to leave, to perhaps cause death and destruction to the innocent, and to blacken the name of all Mages?  Or will your boarding school also become a prison?


I would probably advocate making it very difficult for a parent to say no...  for example, they could choose to go into exile, or be heavily taxed to pay for extra police etc.  Plus, once word genreally gets out that the revised circles aren't horrible places to be, I don't see too much resistance.  Families could visit or relocate close to the school etc.  Once the isolation and social stigma is removed from mages, it'll get easier to work with people.

#52
GavrielKay

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sorry, double post

Modifié par GavrielKay, 12 juillet 2011 - 08:47 .


#53
Sinaxi

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Wulfram wrote...
The thing people tend to get wrong is the causation.  The Chantry
reflects peoples fear of mages, it does not create it.  Though it would
be better if it calmed those fears rather than reinforced them.


I wouldn't say I'm wrong because I disagree with you. The Chantry DOES create people's fear of mages. Fear of mages began a long time ago with the writings and the teachings of the Chantry. Do you really believe that they are not biased in their teachings against mages when their Chant of Light specifically tells them that it was MAGES that entered the Golden City, corrupted it, and made the Maker turn his eyes away from his creations because he was disappointed?

It's taught by the Chantry that the Old Gods were false and it is thought that they taught magic to the magisters and turned people away from their faith in the Maker which led to the mages entering the Golden City. Magic is looked upon as a CURSE by the Chantry, I even remember I think in the mage origin there is this crazy Mage in the circle who basically wants to kill herself because she hates the fact that she is a mage. (she's totally all for the Templars wiping out the circle...talk about religious hysteria). So yes, it does reflect fear for Mages but at the same time I do believe it is the core cause of it because the writings are rather clear...

#54
EmperorSahlertz

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That fear of mages dates back even before the Chantry. It stems from the way the magisters of Tevinter treated their subjects. The Chantry merely incorporated this fear into their dogma. The only writing we got from the Chant of Light is: "Magic is made to serve man, and never to rule him." That in itself does not seem rather frightful of magic, actually it sounds rather reasonable. However, since magic IS feared by the commoners, it is reflected in society on the treatment of mages.

#55
GavrielKay

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That fear of mages dates back even before the Chantry. It stems from the way the magisters of Tevinter treated their subjects. The Chantry merely incorporated this fear into their dogma. The only writing we got from the Chant of Light is: "Magic is made to serve man, and never to rule him." That in itself does not seem rather frightful of magic, actually it sounds rather reasonable. However, since magic IS feared by the commoners, it is reflected in society on the treatment of mages.


1000 years later, it is probably fair to say that they feed off each other.  Fear is often contagious.  The fact that the Chantry derives a fair bit of power by keeping the mages under their control doesn't give them much motivation to help change things.

#56
EmperorSahlertz

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Of course not, but to blame the Chantry solely for the fear of mages is ignorant.

#57
GavrielKay

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How about this: the Chantry has "missed" an opportunity to be a force for tolerance and freedom. Religion has a profound affect on people's hearts and minds. We like to think that effect is usually to the good, but obviously that's not always true. In the game world, the Chantry for many reasons feeds into and off of the oppression of mages. That wouldn't have to be the case, but it is.

#58
EmperorSahlertz

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Well yes, the Chantry has obtained, through the mages and Templars it control, a measure of power rivalled by none. Sadly, once someone has gotten the power their sole purpose become to keep it. The Chantry wouldn't gain anything from preaching for tolerance of mages, other than some moral points, but they won't keep you alive for long.

#59
GavrielKay

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Which is fair, but then it also makes it easier to understand why some players don't grant the Chantry quite as much respect for their religiosity as some might hope. They have made themselves into a giant semi-military power based on lyrium trade and control of the mages. In light of that, the random orphan they might care for starts to seem like an afterthought. The reality of Thedas and the Chantry is that there's not a lot of holiness to be seen.

#60
CrimsonZephyr

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Keep in mind that the Chantry hasn't had its version of a reformation yet. There aren't many dissenting philosophies that aren't (a) Tevinter or (B) the Qun. The mage issue might force one, but as of now, it isn't the friendly neighborhood church.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 13 juillet 2011 - 12:09 .


#61
EmperorSahlertz

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GavrielKay wrote...

Which is fair, but then it also makes it easier to understand why some players don't grant the Chantry quite as much respect for their religiosity as some might hope. They have made themselves into a giant semi-military power based on lyrium trade and control of the mages. In light of that, the random orphan they might care for starts to seem like an afterthought. The reality of Thedas and the Chantry is that there's not a lot of holiness to be seen.

Indeed. However, a lot of folks seems to refuse to acknowledge the good the Chantry does, in favor of focusing on some great injustice they percieve. It is like they refuse to acknowledge that when they scream out "Tear the Chantry down!" They are inevitably also screaming: "Let the orphans starve! Let education be erased! And let anarchy rule!". They pretty much neglect that in their own fiery zealotry they become the exact same thing they despise from the Chantry. A fate of irony really.

#62
GavrielKay

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Which is fair, but then it also makes it easier to understand why some players don't grant the Chantry quite as much respect for their religiosity as some might hope. They have made themselves into a giant semi-military power based on lyrium trade and control of the mages. In light of that, the random orphan they might care for starts to seem like an afterthought. The reality of Thedas and the Chantry is that there's not a lot of holiness to be seen.

Indeed. However, a lot of folks seems to refuse to acknowledge the good the Chantry does, in favor of focusing on some great injustice they percieve. It is like they refuse to acknowledge that when they scream out "Tear the Chantry down!" They are inevitably also screaming: "Let the orphans starve! Let education be erased! And let anarchy rule!". They pretty much neglect that in their own fiery zealotry they become the exact same thing they despise from the Chantry. A fate of irony really.


There isn't a lot fo good to be seen in Kirkwall especially.  There's quite a lot of destitute folks in Darktown who don't seem to be getting any help.  I don't see orphans or the poor being fed in the Chantry.  There isn't any in game evidence (in DA2 at least) for the Chantry's good works.  I didn't encounter all that many educated people either.  And trying to keep religion from taking over government is hardly the same as wanting all out anarchy.  When the current system gets to a certain level of dysfunction, it's going to hurt no matter how you try to fix it.

#63
DRTJR

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CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Keep in mind that the Chantry hasn't had its version of a reformation yet. There aren't many dissenting philosophies that aren't (a) Tevinter or (B) the Qun. The mage issue might force one, but as of now, it isn't the friendly neighborhood church.

or © the Dalish Elves

Where the reform lands depends on who wins the Mage/Chantry scuffle and how they win it, If the mages Burn the Grand chathidral to the ground and Stick the Divine on a stick, roast her, and fead her to their Mabari then Mages win and a tevinter style chantry shall arise; If the two sides come to a seace fire then it will see a reformed chantry that neither Opresses or Promotes magic the Templars will be Abanation killers, though the fate of blood mages is still up in the air; If the mage rebellion is chrushed benith the mighty booted heal of the templars then Mages will have to book it to tevintor or be killed.

#64
CrimsonZephyr

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DRTJR wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Keep in mind that the Chantry hasn't had its version of a reformation yet. There aren't many dissenting philosophies that aren't (a) Tevinter or (B) the Qun. The mage issue might force one, but as of now, it isn't the friendly neighborhood church.

or © the Dalish Elves

Where the reform lands depends on who wins the Mage/Chantry scuffle and how they win it, If the mages Burn the Grand chathidral to the ground and Stick the Divine on a stick, roast her, and fead her to their Mabari then Mages win and a tevinter style chantry shall arise; If the two sides come to a seace fire then it will see a reformed chantry that neither Opresses or Promotes magic the Templars will be Abanation killers, though the fate of blood mages is still up in the air; If the mage rebellion is chrushed benith the mighty booted heal of the templars then Mages will have to book it to tevintor or be killed.


Depends on who is leading the mages and who is leading the Templars. The mages aren't there to burn chantries. Anders did, but he is not The Circle. At best, some agreement will be worked out, but the Chantry will end up losing power. Chances are mages would rather negotiate with individual governments rather than the Knight Commanders.

#65
DRTJR

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CrimsonZephyr wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Keep in mind that the Chantry hasn't had its version of a reformation yet. There aren't many dissenting philosophies that aren't (a) Tevinter or (B) the Qun. The mage issue might force one, but as of now, it isn't the friendly neighborhood church.

or © the Dalish Elves

Where the reform lands depends on who wins the Mage/Chantry scuffle and how they win it, If the mages Burn the Grand chathidral to the ground and Stick the Divine on a stick, roast her, and fead her to their Mabari then Mages win and a tevinter style chantry shall arise; If the two sides come to a seace fire then it will see a reformed chantry that neither Opresses or Promotes magic the Templars will be Abanation killers, though the fate of blood mages is still up in the air; If the mage rebellion is chrushed benith the mighty booted heal of the templars then Mages will have to book it to tevintor or be killed.


Depends on who is leading the mages and who is leading the Templars. The mages aren't there to burn chantries. Anders did, but he is not The Circle. At best, some agreement will be worked out, but the Chantry will end up losing power. Chances are mages would rather negotiate with individual governments rather than the Knight Commanders.

it depends if some Templar orders Join the mages and maybe some circles join the chantry. 

#66
CrimsonZephyr

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DRTJR wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Keep in mind that the Chantry hasn't had its version of a reformation yet. There aren't many dissenting philosophies that aren't (a) Tevinter or (B) the Qun. The mage issue might force one, but as of now, it isn't the friendly neighborhood church.

or © the Dalish Elves

Where the reform lands depends on who wins the Mage/Chantry scuffle and how they win it, If the mages Burn the Grand chathidral to the ground and Stick the Divine on a stick, roast her, and fead her to their Mabari then Mages win and a tevinter style chantry shall arise; If the two sides come to a seace fire then it will see a reformed chantry that neither Opresses or Promotes magic the Templars will be Abanation killers, though the fate of blood mages is still up in the air; If the mage rebellion is chrushed benith the mighty booted heal of the templars then Mages will have to book it to tevintor or be killed.


Depends on who is leading the mages and who is leading the Templars. The mages aren't there to burn chantries. Anders did, but he is not The Circle. At best, some agreement will be worked out, but the Chantry will end up losing power. Chances are mages would rather negotiate with individual governments rather than the Knight Commanders.

it depends if some Templar orders Join the mages and maybe some circles join the chantry. 


Judging by the fact that some Templars in fact, do sympathize with the mage cause, it isn't too outlandish that someone like Thrask could team up with someone like Wynne.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 13 juillet 2011 - 01:54 .


#67
Sons of Horus

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GavrielKay wrote...
The common folk have spent 1000 years fearing mages due mostly to Chantry teachings. They are only exposed to the bad mages because the good ones are locked away. Let the good mages out where they can heal the sick, put out village fires, excavate the town wells etc and you'd start to actually change society.

That villagers would prefer not to live next door to mages because they have spent generations being ignorant and fearful does not at all justify continuing the oppression.



I think that is amusingly wrong as "The common Folk" hate and fear mages due to fact that when Tervinter was conquering Thedas and killing / slaves Ie "The common Folk" of the time. The Chantry teachings just keeped it fresh in their minds.

#68
DRTJR

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Considering their are Knight commanders like Knight-Commander Greagoir who Would not declare war on their circles. and that individual Templars may defect from one side to another.

#69
MagnusValkerion

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I think that the chantry over the course of the years has slowly but surely become far more restrictive of mages. Realisticaly though it's all a matter of politics and personal opinion. Gregoire and Irving have a respectful relationship, since Gregoire is a man of honour and Irving a well respected scholar. And as a result the circle is a relativly relaxed place which has more of a university atmosphere than a prison. Then on the other hand we have Kirkwall. This "circle" is in a former Tevinter Prison, the knight commanders is a hard line right wing templar supported by a right wing templar who suffered personally at the hands of blood mages. Orsino is First enchanter not because of his knowlage and wisdom but because no-one else wanted the job. As a result we have a political regime that is setup to cause tension. Anyway I digress, the mantra "magic is to serve man, not rule over him" is like most religious mantra's, [I do not mean to offend anyone here] when Andraste said it she knew exactly what she meant. But now we'll never know what she truely wanted for mages because after serveral new divines and a schism in the chantry, nobody even remembers what that was. So we are left with the interpretation of whomever happens to be in charge atm and that policy appears to be "mages are dangerous we must keep them secured". Ironically I believe that a woman who rose up against a corrupt imperium, freed a bunch of slaves and against all odds brought the maker back to this world [kinda] would've had something to say about locking a bunch of people away from the world in a tower against their will. Then forcing them to do exactly what you say, sounds like slavery to me.. But as I said it's open to interpretation. It's highly possible that after all this time the chantry simply doesn't know how to change and has been forcibly "removing" any "divine" that had any inclination of letting the mages free. Or would that be terribly cynical of me?

#70
EmperorSahlertz

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GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Which is fair, but then it also makes it easier to understand why some players don't grant the Chantry quite as much respect for their religiosity as some might hope. They have made themselves into a giant semi-military power based on lyrium trade and control of the mages. In light of that, the random orphan they might care for starts to seem like an afterthought. The reality of Thedas and the Chantry is that there's not a lot of holiness to be seen.

Indeed. However, a lot of folks seems to refuse to acknowledge the good the Chantry does, in favor of focusing on some great injustice they percieve. It is like they refuse to acknowledge that when they scream out "Tear the Chantry down!" They are inevitably also screaming: "Let the orphans starve! Let education be erased! And let anarchy rule!". They pretty much neglect that in their own fiery zealotry they become the exact same thing they despise from the Chantry. A fate of irony really.


There isn't a lot fo good to be seen in Kirkwall especially.  There's quite a lot of destitute folks in Darktown who don't seem to be getting any help.  I don't see orphans or the poor being fed in the Chantry.  There isn't any in game evidence (in DA2 at least) for the Chantry's good works.  I didn't encounter all that many educated people either.  And trying to keep religion from taking over government is hardly the same as wanting all out anarchy.  When the current system gets to a certain level of dysfunction, it's going to hurt no matter how you try to fix it.

In some of the random banter amongst the priestesses in the chantry, they talk about how many refugeses (and orphans) that has arrived in Kirkwall, and that it is hard to help them all. And all the codex entries are more or less proof of the Chantry educating, at least their own, people.

#71
GavrielKay

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Sons of Horus wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
The common folk have spent 1000 years fearing mages due mostly to Chantry teachings. They are only exposed to the bad mages because the good ones are locked away. Let the good mages out where they can heal the sick, put out village fires, excavate the town wells etc and you'd start to actually change society.

That villagers would prefer not to live next door to mages because they have spent generations being ignorant and fearful does not at all justify continuing the oppression.



I think that is amusingly wrong as "The common Folk" hate and fear mages due to fact that when Tervinter was conquering Thedas and killing / slaves Ie "The common Folk" of the time. The Chantry teachings just keeped it fresh in their minds.


1000 years ago the common folk hated the mages because of Tevinter.  That's a long time, in case you hadn't noticed.  It is hardly "amusingly wrong" to assume that with time to reintegrate the mages into society, the common folk might enjoy the occassional healing.

The general mood of society does manage to change over time when it is allowed to, and sometimes even when it is opposed.  It wasn't all that long ago when it was considered a threat to society to allow interracial marriage.  That is now commonplace and we're on to new "OMG if that happens we're all DOOMED" bigotry.

If the Chantry helped to reverse the trend it would go even faster.

#72
Plaintiff

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Which is fair, but then it also makes it easier to understand why some players don't grant the Chantry quite as much respect for their religiosity as some might hope. They have made themselves into a giant semi-military power based on lyrium trade and control of the mages. In light of that, the random orphan they might care for starts to seem like an afterthought. The reality of Thedas and the Chantry is that there's not a lot of holiness to be seen.

Indeed. However, a lot of folks seems to refuse to acknowledge the good the Chantry does, in favor of focusing on some great injustice they percieve. It is like they refuse to acknowledge that when they scream out "Tear the Chantry down!" They are inevitably also screaming: "Let the orphans starve! Let education be erased! And let anarchy rule!". They pretty much neglect that in their own fiery zealotry they become the exact same thing they despise from the Chantry. A fate of irony really.


There isn't a lot fo good to be seen in Kirkwall especially.  There's quite a lot of destitute folks in Darktown who don't seem to be getting any help.  I don't see orphans or the poor being fed in the Chantry.  There isn't any in game evidence (in DA2 at least) for the Chantry's good works.  I didn't encounter all that many educated people either.  And trying to keep religion from taking over government is hardly the same as wanting all out anarchy.  When the current system gets to a certain level of dysfunction, it's going to hurt no matter how you try to fix it.

In some of the random banter amongst the priestesses in the chantry, they talk about how many refugeses (and orphans) that has arrived in Kirkwall, and that it is hard to help them all. And all the codex entries are more or less proof of the Chantry educating, at least their own, people.

It is hard to help them all. So hard in fact, that apparently they just said "**** this, it must be the will of the Maker!" and decided not to bother!

If Anders can run a secret free clinic by himself for seven years, with no money and the constant  threat of discovery and persecution hanging over his head, then the Chantry has no excuse for failing to do its part. You can see just by walking around that it has more resources available to it than Anders did. The priestesses have obviously expensive robes while lowtowners and darktowners dress in rags. Not that the priestesses would ever know that, because they never go there.

The Chantry obviously has money, Petrice was able to pay Hawke for the task she assigned him. And even without that,you can see just from walking around that there's there's valuables all over the damn building. Carpets, candlesticks, tapestries, furniture that isn't being used, storerooms with boxes full of who-knows-what. For ****'s sake, half the space is taken up with a gold-plated statue of Andraste that goes all the way up to the roof.

If the Chantry were serious about helping people, they could sell the wealth that has accumulated on their premises and use it to buy food and clothing for the needy. But they don't. They don't do anything, in fact. Where are the mats laid out for the homeless who come to take shelter at night? Where's the soup kitchen? Where is the templar-monitored mage clinic? Where is there even the slightest scrap of evidence that the Chantry gives a damn at all?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 13 juillet 2011 - 04:25 .


#73
Rifneno

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Nope, the Chantry sure isn't pouring gasoline on that fire! Innocent as a (Rosemary's) baby.

#74
GavrielKay

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Plaintiff wrote...
If the Chantry were serious about helping people, they could sell the wealth that has accumulated on their premises and use it to buy food and clothing for the needy.


Sadly, the same could be said for a few modern religions.

The real world has its own history of wanting to believe that religion is by and large a good thing promoting good works.  I imagine many players carry that bias with them into the game.  Personally, I don't start with that assumption but wait for a religion (or any other organization) to prove itself to be a force for good.  In the case of the Chantry, I don't think they succeed.  Apart from the Templars in Lothering, they pretty much come off as more bad than good.

Caring for orphans (wherever they may be...) doesn't outweigh keeping thousands of mages prisoner.

#75
Wulfram

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Rifneno wrote...

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Nope, the Chantry sure isn't pouring gasoline on that fire! Innocent as a (Rosemary's) baby.


She should study the Chant again, I think.  The Canticle of Transfigurations is quite explicit - Magic is a gift from the maker, those who misuse it are accursed.