174 réponses à ce sujet

[CrimsonZephyr]

Wulfram wrote...

Rifneno wrote...



Nope, the Chantry sure isn't pouring gasoline on that fire! Innocent as a (Rosemary's) baby.

She should study the Chant again, I think.  The Canticle of Transfigurations is quite explicit - Magic is a gift from the maker, those who misuse it are accursed.

The Chantry seems to treat "use" and "misuse" as entirely synonymous, then.

[GavrielKay]

Wulfram wrote...
She should study the Chant again, I think.  The Canticle of Transfigurations is quite explicit - Magic is a gift from the Maker, those who misuse it are accursed.

It wouldn't be the first time that an organization decided to interpret its founding documents to suit themselves.  I do think it's fair to hold them accountable for what they actually do (or don't do) though, rather than give them a free pass because their stated purpose sounds good.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Who is giving them a free pass? I think most agree that the mages could get some better living conditions, what some are arguing is that "tearing down the Chantry" for some percieved injustice, is going too far. Hell, some of us even agree with the Circle system...

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Circle system would always fail. The Templars have too much power and the mages never associate with anyone but mages, and are therefore easier to scapegoat. The effectiveness is so totally situational because it depends upon Templars being good people. Regardless of whether they are or not, they have such broad powers over mages that the treatment of mages basically hinges on how sadistic a templar happens to be. The mages need codified rights, they need their own police unit to work alongside Templars, and they need to be more diffusely organized, as well as more integrated into society. The Circle works as an educational institution, but fails miserably as a social one.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The CIrcle system lasted for almost 1000 years, which is (a bit) longer than any organization I know of from our world. So, I'd say the reason for the Circle system to have failed, is far more circumstancial, than an actual inevitability. Unless you wanna go down the: "Everythings' failure is inevitable" road, in which case there isn't much to discuss.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Yes, it lasted that long, yet suffered an extermination order a little more than once a century. It wasn't a great solution marred by one bad case. Not to mention, now that Kirkwall's happened, there's no going back.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 14 juillet 2011 - 12:45 .

[DPSSOC]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Not to mention, now that Kirkwall's happened, there's no going back.

Isn't that like saying once a beast is free it can never be caged again?  Of course things could go back, things can always go back, the mage rebellion could be crushed and every member exterminated or forced into hiding and the Circles start up all over again, only this time the instructors are 100% Chantry loyalists who will demonize (literally) the rebellious mages who brought so much destruction upon the Maker's children.  Or the rebels could simply decide that surrender is preferable to extermination, not all of them have Anders' zeal.

There is never a point when things can't go back to the way they were, it's just a matter of how hard it is to get them that way..

[CrimsonZephyr]

DPSSOC wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Not to mention, now that Kirkwall's happened, there's no going back.

Isn't that like saying once a beast is free it can never be caged again?  Of course things could go back, things can always go back, the mage rebellion could be crushed and every member exterminated or forced into hiding and the Circles start up all over again, only this time the instructors are 100% Chantry loyalists who will demonize (literally) the rebellious mages who brought so much destruction upon the Maker's children.  Or the rebels could simply decide that surrender is preferable to extermination, not all of them have Anders' zeal.

There is never a point when things can't go back to the way they were, it's just a matter of how hard it is to get them that way..

The Templars have never faced all 14 Circles at the same time, and they don't have universal support from the national governments, all of whom would want mages alive for very good reason. Plus, it's obvious every advantage the armies of Thedas have is magic-based: enchantments, area effect nuking spells, heals that bring troops back to combat effectiveness instantaneously, etc.

Mages are Thedas's ace in the hole. Without them, the Qunari will faceplant everyone into the dirt. They might not have the public approval religion brings, but militarily, they have a lot more leverage. Also, I doubt this conflict will stay between mages and templars. All sorts of people will be fighting.

[Harid]

Given the lack of public support, the fact that this isn't isolated to one nation, and the fact that circles are far too spread out to ally themselves as one strong force, logic would dictate that these mages would be put down like animals.

But this is Bioware. Some third threat will come, (Insert Awesome Main Character here) will ally the mages and the templars, and the people of Thedas against this bigger threat, bigger threat will be put down by united force, and people will give mages rights as thanks for some reason, ignoring all the crap mages did prior to the big threat.

That's the Bioware way.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Harid wrote...

Given the lack of public support, the fact that this isn't isolated to one nation, and the fact that circles are far too spread out to ally themselves as one strong force, logic would dictate that these mages would be put down like animals.

But this is Bioware. Some third threat will come, (Insert Awesome Main Character here) will ally the mages and the templars, and the people of Thedas against this bigger threat, bigger threat will be put down by united force, and people will give mages rights as thanks for some reason, ignoring all the crap mages did prior to the big threat.

That's the Bioware way.

The Templars are also spread out, and are hardly unified in their rebellion. Also, the Templars, as well trained as they are, are no match for trained mages nuking them with massive amounts of spells. They have inferior healing, they have inferior gear, and frankly, national leaders need them less than mages. Realpolitik would dictate, in the interest of protection against the damn Qunari, relations be normalized with mages first. There's a reason the Chantry, and not the Circle, is on the verge of collapse.

[LobselVith8]

Harid wrote...

Given the lack of public support, the fact that this isn't isolated to one nation, and the fact that circles are far too spread out to ally themselves as one strong force, logic would dictate that these mages would be put down like animals.

Against a group of armored drug addicts who may or may not have access to their Chantry controlled supply, since they rebelled from the Chantry as well.

Harid wrote...

But this is Bioware. Some third threat will come, (Insert Awesome Main Character here) will ally the mages and the templars, and the people of Thedas against this bigger threat, bigger threat will be put down by united force, and people will give mages rights as thanks for some reason, ignoring all the crap mages did prior to the big threat.

That's the Bioware way.

Ignoring all the crap they did - do you mean the mages wanting rights and independence from a religious institution that taught people to hate and fear mages for nearly a thousand years?

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

Rifneno wrote...



Nope, the Chantry sure isn't pouring gasoline on that fire! Innocent as a (Rosemary's) baby.

She should study the Chant again, I think.  The Canticle of Transfigurations is quite explicit - Magic is a gift from the maker, those who misuse it are accursed.

That must explain why Andrastians like Greagoir, Keili, Bethany, and Meredith all refer to magic as a curse...

[Harid]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Harid wrote...

Given the lack of public support, the fact that this isn't isolated to one nation, and the fact that circles are far too spread out to ally themselves as one strong force, logic would dictate that these mages would be put down like animals.

But this is Bioware. Some third threat will come, (Insert Awesome Main Character here) will ally the mages and the templars, and the people of Thedas against this bigger threat, bigger threat will be put down by united force, and people will give mages rights as thanks for some reason, ignoring all the crap mages did prior to the big threat.

That's the Bioware way.

The Templars are also spread out, and are hardly unified in their rebellion. Also, the Templars, as well trained as they are, are no match for trained mages nuking them with massive amounts of spells. They have inferior healing, they have inferior gear, and frankly, national leaders need them less than mages. Realpolitik would dictate, in the interest of protection against the damn Qunari, relations be normalized with mages first. There's a reason the Chantry, and not the Circle, is on the verge of collapse.

The Qunari, as far as we currently know, are still tied up with the Tevinters and don't currently have a military leader.  That's conjecture at best, we don't know what level of the threat the Qunari are at the moment.  Templars also rebelled to help people, and as Alistair has proven, don't even need lyrium to use their abilities; I am pretty sure a Templar training your standing troops will be a greater asset to a mage that may or may not be a demon thrall, may or may not try to control you with Blood Magic, and may or may not succumb to either of these two at any time, mages are too much of a wild card.  People keep talking about Mad drug addicted Templars, ignoring there is a lyruim black market, ignoring some of these Templars rebelled to protect the common people against mages, ignoring Templar abilities are abilities you can train to other people, and ignoring that they still have the public's support through past actions and by virtue of not being mages. 

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ignoring all the crap they did - do you mean the mages wanting rights and independence from a religious institution that taught people to hate and fear mages for nearly a thousand years?

There's nothing wrong with wanting rights, but not all mages wanted this rebellion, the majority fraternity in mage circles did not want this rebellion, and we have no evidence that mages even tried other options prior to this, ignroing the fact that all circles rebelling is stupid inherently due to these large issues.  But no, that's not what I meant.  I meant the fact that many of these mages will be going on Blood magic and Demon rampages on regular people, proving the chantry right.  Before people quote the French Revolution, that comparison only applies if Mages pretty much take over Thedas. . .which would also be proving the Chantry correct as well.  This would go something like the Servile Wars in real life, but Bioware pretty much tried to make it like John Brown's revolution for slaves, ignoring the other issues going on at the same time he did that, and the fact that there were other powers at work.  (And the fact that John Brown is still reviled in the US.)  The funny thing is John Brown wasn't even Black. . .they should have made the mage war triggered by a non mage instead of Anders so we could at least see a semblance of non-mage public support.

Modifié par Harid, 14 juillet 2011 - 02:51 .

[LobselVith8]

Harid wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ignoring all the crap they did - do you mean the mages wanting rights and independence from a religious institution that taught people to hate and fear mages for nearly a thousand years?

There's nothing wrong with wanting rights, but not all mages wanted this rebellion, the majority fraternity in mage circles did not want this rebellion, and we have no evidence that mages even tried other options prior to this, ignroing the fact that all circles rebelling is stupid inherently due to these large issues.

We know from Wynne in Awakening that the Circles were close to electing to vote in favor of breaking free from the Chantry, but Wynne and Ines argued against it because, as Wynne points out to The Warden, the Chantry would commit genocide against every mage rather than see them free. Apparently, killing an entire (or many, if Hawke had decided to side with the mages) men, women, and children simply because they were mages inspired the other remaining Circles of Magi to emancipate themselves from a dictatorship.

Harid wrote...

But no, that's not what I meant.  I meant the fact that many of these mages will be going on Blood magic and Demon rampages on regular people, proving the chantry right.  

How is a population of people across the continent fighting for their rights and against tyranny proving the Chantry right? It's either possibly dying on their feet or living in servitude on their knees. It's a fight for freedom, not for public opinion. Also, Grey Wardens use blood magic, too. Blood magic isn't evil. Simply because the writers made mages and templars complete idiots in Dragon Age 2 doesn't mean we'll see them repeat this disasterous mistake if the mages decide to use blood magic to deal with the magic nullifying templars who can cease all ordinary magic.

Harid wrote...

Before people quote the French Revolution, that comparison only applies if Mages pretty much take over Thedas. . .which would also be proving the Chantry correct as well.  This would go something like the Servile Wars in real life, but Bioware pretty much tried to make it like John Brown's revolution for slaves, ignoring the other issues going on at the same time he did that, and the fact that there were other powers at work.  (And the fact that John Brown is still reviled in the US.)  The funny thing is John Brown wasn't even Black. . .they should have made the mage war triggered by a non mage instead of Anders so we could at least see a semblance of non-mage public support.

We had that with Ser Thrask, but the writers dropped the ball by giving us another insane Starkhaven mage, because apparently Decimus and Quentin weren't enough idiocy for one game. And the mages can see Hawke as a hero of the cause, while we never find out how they view Anders.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Templars are also addicted to lyrium - an addiction that ADDLES them if it is not satisfied. That's a HUGE handicap that mages WILL exploit. And Templars might not need lyrium, but everyu Templar is given it under that pretense, which makes Alistair's comment on it irrelevant. The Templars have a major disadvantage in weaponry as well. Swords and bows are nothing compared to mages who can toss people about like rag dolls or summon firestorms. The tactical advantage of the latter is absolutely undeniable, which is why national leaders, public opinion or no, (and when has that seriously mattered in such a bleak world?) will want mages. Also, those Templar powers? They have abysmal range. Think Agincourt and Crecy, except replace archers with wizards.

The Qunari will probably have a military leader. If the Arishok did not have a successor lined up, I will be very surprised. Ignoring of course the fact that he died six years prior to the epilogue. The Qunari are a people of incredible efficiency and almost surely would appoint a new Arishok immediately upon finding out the old one died. And they don't have to charge through Tevinter. They could easily invade Rivain and Antiva from the north, steamrollering both countries because their one defense, mages, are now out of their hands. And once Qunari are killing them, these countries will want to make a deal.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 14 juillet 2011 - 03:02 .

[Harid]

LobselVith8 wrote...
We know from Wynne in Awakening that the Circles were close to electing to vote in favor of breaking free from the Chantry, but Wynne and Ines argued against it because, as Wynne points out to The Warden, the Chantry would commit genocide against every mage rather than see them free. Apparently, killing an entire (or many, if Hawke had decided to side with the mages) men, women, and children simply because they were mages inspired the other remaining Circles of Magi to emancipate themselves from a dictatorship.

How is a population of people across the continent fighting for their rights and against tyranny proving the Chantry right? It's either possibly dying on their feet or living in servitude on their knees. It's a fight for freedom, not for public opinion. Also, Grey Wardens use blood magic, too. Blood magic isn't evil. Simply because the writers made mages and templars complete idiots in Dragon Age 2 doesn't mean we'll see them repeat this disasterous mistake if the mages decide to use blood magic to deal with the magic nullifying templars who can cease all ordinary magic.

We had that with Ser Thrask, but the writers dropped the ball by giving us another insane Starkhaven mage, because apparently Decimus and Quentin weren't enough idiocy for one game. And the mages can see Hawke as a hero of the cause, while we never find out how they view Anders.

1) They weren't anywhere near close.  Wynne stated they were entertaining the notion.  Wynne even said it could amount to all of nothing.  And as far as we know, it did, because years after Dragon Age Awakening, Circles still existed under the control of the Chantry.

2) When you are a substancial minority fighting for your rights, you are fighting a war of public opinion along side the fight for your rights.  If the majority do not agree with your fight, they will not aid you in anything but being cut down by your oppressors.  And without Templars to do it, people will look toward their leadership to do it.   As far as we know, the majority of the people have no problem with circles and fear mages.  Rampaging mages will only prove the chantry right by virtue of showing what happens when you allow magic to control you. Outside of our Blood Magic using characters, pretty much every other character in the game that employs Blood Magic are seen to be evil by the public, who, while they respect Wardens, still don't like Wardens that turn to Blood Magic, do you remember what Levi Dryden stated when he found out Sophia employed it?  The people do not like Blood Magic.

3) It's really not my problem Bioware continuously shows non-mage support being cut down by the mages they are seeking to help.  Regardless it's the mages faults for doing it.  Why would you kill people who are part of the majority that want you to be free? It's not only counter intuitive, it's stupid as it makes regular people even less likely to help you.  Only a god damned fool would support someone who is fighting against their own self safety like mages have shown to the common man.

Modifié par Harid, 14 juillet 2011 - 03:13 .

[Harid]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Templars are also addicted to lyrium - an addiction that ADDLES them if it is not satisfied. That's a HUGE handicap that mages WILL exploit. And Templars might not need lyrium, but everyu Templar is given it under that pretense, which makes Alistair's comment on it irrelevant. The Templars have a major disadvantage in weaponry as well. Swords and bows are nothing compared to mages who can toss people about like rag dolls or summon firestorms. The tactical advantage of the latter is absolutely undeniable, which is why national leaders, public opinion or no, (and when has that seriously mattered in such a bleak world?) will want mages. Also, those Templar powers? They have abysmal range. Think Agincourt and Crecy, except replace archers with wizards.

The Qunari will probably have a military leader. If the Arishok did not have a successor lined up, I will be very surprised. Ignoring of course the fact that he died six years prior to the epilogue. The Qunari are a people of incredible efficiency and almost surely would appoint a new Arishok immediately upon finding out the old one died. And they don't have to charge through Tevinter. They could easily invade Rivain and Antiva from the north, steamrollering both countries because their one defense, mages, are now out of their hands. And once Qunari are killing them, these countries will want to make a deal.

Templars clearly are stronger against mages as we've seen given how many Annulments have occured under chantry watch, so, I don't know what you are going on about.  And if they teach their abilities to a countries army, all they have to do is support that templar's lyrium habit, as Templars do not need lyrium to use their powers.

Even if the Qunari have a new leader, which I would wager you are correct about, it ultimately doesn't matter as so far as we don't know if the Qunari are going to attack Thedas at that very time.  Sten's premonition doesn't have a time that we know of it occuring yet, so your argument is largely based on conjecture.  In my patronizing of Bioware's story, I honestly expect Flemeth to be that third threat moreso than the Qunari.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Templars fight mages in cramped towers and hallways during an Annulment, not out in battlefields, where mobility and range are huge issues and where the Templars, wearing bulky plate armor, are completely outclassed by mages in terms of range, mobility, firepower, and logistics (healing, mainly).

Also, Sten says the Qunari will one day return. The Arishok uses his last breath to say the Qunari will return. They are coming back, and a time when the nations of Thedas have lost their one defense against Qunari blackpowder is the perfect time. It's not pure conjecture, it's an inference made from direct lines from the damned games.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 14 juillet 2011 - 03:17 .

[DRTJR]

The templars have the advantage in the grand finaly of DA2, If the mages have the element of surprise then Mages win

[CrimsonZephyr]

DRTJR wrote...

The templars have the advantage in the grand finaly of DA2, If the mages have the element of surprise then Mages win

The mages in the initial cutscene...weren't the sharpest tools in the shed, standing in that wide open courtyard at the Gallows just waiting to be flanked and cut down.

[Harid]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The Templars fight mages in cramped towers and hallways during an Annulment, not out in battlefields, where mobility and range are huge issues and where the Templars, wearing bulky plate armor, are completely outclassed by mages in terms of range, mobility, firepower, and logistics (healing, mainly).

Also, Sten says the Qunari will one day return. The Arishok uses his last breath to say the Qunari will return. They are coming back, and a time when the nations of Thedas have lost their one defense against Qunari blackpowder is the perfect time. It's not pure conjecture, it's an inference made from direct lines from the damned games.

Bulky plate armor really doesn't affect mobility as much as people should believe.  And Templars generally have more combat experiance and more real world experiance than mages have.  Regardless of which, the fact that until Kirkwall (and technically Kirkwall if you don't support the mages), every annulment has gone down without a hitch, makes it hard to believe the Templars are so outclassed, besides our awesome main characters being awesome on them.  Ignoring all of this, there are battles in in game history where templars had no issue with enemy mages.  They aren't as weak as you are fantasizing them to be.

And I already stated that we don't know when the Qunari will attack Thedas.  It could be far after this supposed war for all I or you know, and that is the tactically smarter time to attack rather than in the middle of it anyway.  Why I stated that your argument is based on conjecture, as you are speaking as if the Qunari have already began to sack Thedas, we don't know when they are going to do it yet.

Modifié par Harid, 14 juillet 2011 - 03:32 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

I already explained why the Templars would have an easier time annuling Circles - because they are fighting at close range in cramped corridors, killing mage and abomination alike. Mages are not capable fighters in melee, and charging a cramped tower with an army of Templars, judging from the powers we've seen both they and mages use, would be much more effective than, say, charging up a hilltop while a hundred mages are spamming firestorms and gravitic rings at them. This is not an annulment, though. This is a war and the tactics would be understandably different. I've used very simple, very basic logic which you seem intent on ignoring.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 14 juillet 2011 - 03:48 .

[Harid]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I already explained why the Templars would have an easier time annuling Circles - because they are fighting at close range in cramped corridors, killing mage and abomination alike. Mages are not capable fighters in melee, and charging a cramped tower with an army of Templars, judging from the powers we've seen both they and mages use, would be much more effective than, say, charging up a hilltop while a hundred mages are spamming firestorms and gravitic rings at them. This is not an annulment, though. This is a war and the tactics would be understandably different. I've used very simple, very basic logic which you seem intent on ignoring.

I'm ignoring it because templars will likely have mages and arrows, and magic resistance, and a huge numbers advantage and other things that will not make this fight as one sided as you seem to make it, and the fact that the majority of circle mages aren't powerful enough to be throwing around firestorms at will.

Furthermore most mages do not have the tactical training that the Templars are more likely to have through leadership.

[CrimsonZephyr]

It won't be one sided. You make it seem one-sided, like the Templars will show up and the mages will flee before them and the Templars will listen to the lamentations of their women after every battle. It won't be like that at all. It will be an even fight. But not every Circle is like Kirkwall, and there are bound to be many powerful mages elsewhere. Also, Firestorm technically requires level 5. That's...not a huge requirement. Not to mention that mages have been trained all over Thedas to use these powers.

[sphinxess]

The nobility isn't going to put up with mages and Templars running around in their country fighting a holy war against each other