174 réponses à ce sujet

[CrimsonZephyr]

sphinxess wrote...

The nobility isn't going to put up with mages and Templars running around in their country fighting a holy war against each other

Absolutely not, which is why the governments of these countries would want the situation settled as quickly as possible. Remember that a great deal of commerce is also based in magical items and healers are integral to any army. The Templars are the Chantry's army and their allegiance cannot be negotiated away. The mages are nobody's army, and whoever's army they become automatically gets a huge boost in power. The nobles would probably want to approach the mages first before sending out the troops. Why make an enemy when you can make an ally? And remember that while the local religion might extol the Templars, the practical disadvantages of having an army with zero loyalty to the local government marching over its realm would eventually win over any long-term religious conviction. This game is filled with people who are willing to set aside piety for the sake of power, after all, and that isn't necessarily an inherently bad thing.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 14 juillet 2011 - 04:23 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Rifneno wrote...



Nope, the Chantry sure isn't pouring gasoline on that fire! Innocent as a (Rosemary's) baby.

She should study the Chant again, I think.  The Canticle of Transfigurations is quite explicit - Magic is a gift from the maker, those who misuse it are accursed.

That must explain why Andrastians like Greagoir, Keili, Bethany, and Meredith all refer to magic as a curse...

Oh look. Lob pulled the "Greagoir calls it a curse!" card again. Lob, do me a favor and quote the ENTIRE sentence where Greagoir calls magic a curse. On second thought, let me do that for ya:
    "Your magic is a gift, but it is also a curse..."

Should we also go around crying out that Greagoir calls magic a gift, since you insist on taking his sentence completely out of context?

[Rifneno]

Wulfram wrote...

She should study the Chant again, I think.  The Canticle of Transfigurations is quite explicit - Magic is a gift from the maker, those who misuse it are accursed.

Well I'm sure it's not that the Chantry is twisting the teachings. Heavens no! Major religious organizations have always been much too honest to spin a doctrine to suit their needs!

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The CIrcle system lasted for almost 1000 years, which is (a bit) longer than any organization I know of from our world. So, I'd say the reason for the Circle system to have failed, is far more circumstancial, than an actual inevitability. Unless you wanna go down the: "Everythings' failure is inevitable" road, in which case there isn't much to discuss.

I really should know better than to reply to you on a Chantry thread, but... Tevinter has lasted even longer, so clearly their system is even more awesome.

DPSSOC wrote...

Isn't that like saying once a beast is free it can never be caged again?  Of course things could go back, things can always go back, the mage rebellion could be crushed and every member exterminated or forced into hiding and the Circles start up all over again, only this time the instructors are 100% Chantry loyalists who will demonize (literally) the rebellious mages who brought so much destruction upon the Maker's children.  Or the rebels could simply decide that surrender is preferable to extermination, not all of them have Anders' zeal.

There is never a point when things can't go back to the way they were, it's just a matter of how hard it is to get them that way..

1. A beast is an unintelligent animal. A mage has as much intelligence as anyone else, and now that they know fighting back is a viable option they aren't going to sit back and take that brutal tyranny. The only reason they did before was because they thought the templars would totally crush them. Whether it makes sense or not for the people whose Hawkes followed the fascist path, the story is that Kirkwall showed the mages that "the templars could be defied." That genie can't be put back in the bottle, no matter what bad metaphor you use. You can't take back knowledge.

2. The war has been going for three years. The war broke out in 9:37 Dragon, and Cassandra is interrogating Varric in 9:40 Dragon. Three years of fighting, and the Chantry is basically grasping at straws by sending its top agents out to try and find a hero to help them mop up the mess. And you think it's a reasonably possibility that the "rebellions will be crushed and every member exterminated?" That's absurd.

Harid wrote...

Given the lack of public support, the fact that this isn't isolated to one nation, and the fact that circles are far too spread out to ally themselves as one strong force, logic would dictate that these mages would be put down like animals.

But this is Bioware. Some third threat will come, (Insert Awesome Main Character here) will ally the mages and the templars, and the people of Thedas against this bigger threat, bigger threat will be put down by united force, and people will give mages rights as thanks for some reason, ignoring all the crap mages did prior to the big threat.

That's the Bioware way.

You really don't "get" how fiction writing works, do you? That's rhetorical BTW. It's quite clear you don't.

Templars also rebelled to help people, and as Alistair has proven, don't even need lyrium to use their abilities

We so far don't have confirmation from Bioware that the Alistair thing wasn't just a device to let us have the templar specialization without being drug addicts and having to stop every hour to go buy more illegal drugs. But that's neither here nor there, it doesn't matter and this is why: because the current generation of templars are all addicted already. They need lyrium, period. They will die a horrible death if they don't get it, whether they need it for templar abilities or not.

Templars rebelled to protect the common people against mages, ignoring Templar abilities are abilities you can train to other people, and ignoring that they still have the public's support through past actions and by virtue of not being mages.

Not everyone is as prejudice as you are.

There's nothing wrong with wanting rights, but not all mages wanted this rebellion, the majority fraternity in mage circles did not want this rebellion

It's called "Stockholm Syndrome." Google it.

Bulky plate armor really doesn't affect mobility as much as people should believe.

It conducts electricity exactly as much as people think it should though.

[Giubba]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The CIrcle system lasted for almost 1000 years, which is (a bit) longer than any organization I know of from our world. So, I'd say the reason for the Circle system to have failed, is far more circumstancial, than an actual inevitability. Unless you wanna go down the: "Everythings' failure is inevitable" road, in which case there isn't much to discuss.

Ortodox and Catholic church are basically active since the fourth century given or taken

[LobselVith8]

Harid wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
We know from Wynne in Awakening that the Circles were close to electing to vote in favor of breaking free from the Chantry, but Wynne and Ines argued against it because, as Wynne points out to The Warden, the Chantry would commit genocide against every mage rather than see them free. Apparently, killing an entire (or many, if Hawke had decided to side with the mages) men, women, and children simply because they were mages inspired the other remaining Circles of Magi to emancipate themselves from a dictatorship.

How is a population of people across the continent fighting for their rights and against tyranny proving the Chantry right? It's either possibly dying on their feet or living in servitude on their knees. It's a fight for freedom, not for public opinion. Also, Grey Wardens use blood magic, too. Blood magic isn't evil. Simply because the writers made mages and templars complete idiots in Dragon Age 2 doesn't mean we'll see them repeat this disasterous mistake if the mages decide to use blood magic to deal with the magic nullifying templars who can cease all ordinary magic.

We had that with Ser Thrask, but the writers dropped the ball by giving us another insane Starkhaven mage, because apparently Decimus and Quentin weren't enough idiocy for one game. And the mages can see Hawke as a hero of the cause, while we never find out how they view Anders.

1) They weren't anywhere near close.  Wynne stated they were entertaining the notion.  Wynne even said it could amount to all of nothing.  And as far as we know, it did, because years after Dragon Age Awakening, Circles still existed under the control of the Chantry.

That's not accurate, since Wynne wanted to argue against it because she thought it was going to happen, and even Ines addressed that gaining her assistance was a desperate move on Wynne's part given their animosity towards each other. Wynne expressed clear fear because she said the Chantry would kill all the mages if the vote turned out in favor of emancipating the Circles of Magi.

Harid wrote...

2) When you are a substancial minority fighting for your rights, you are fighting a war of public opinion along side the fight for your rights.  If the majority do not agree with your fight, they will not aid you in anything but being cut down by your oppressors.  And without Templars to do it, people will look toward their leadership to do it.   As far as we know, the majority of the people have no problem with circles and fear mages.  Rampaging mages will only prove the chantry right by virtue of showing what happens when you allow magic to control you. Outside of our Blood Magic using characters, pretty much every other character in the game that employs Blood Magic are seen to be evil by the public, who, while they respect Wardens, still don't like Wardens that turn to Blood Magic, do you remember what Levi Dryden stated when he found out Sophia employed it?  The people do not like Blood Magic.

The people have no problem with the Chantry controlled Circles in the same way they have no problem with the horrible living conditions of the Alienages or the "purges" of the elves. If the mages are supposed to wait until the common people - who have been taught to hate mages and see them as cursed for nearly a millennia  - suddenly decide to go against centuries of indocturination, then the mages will spend another millennia under oppression. Freedom is preferrable to subjugation.

Harid wrote...

3) It's really not my problem Bioware continuously shows non-mage support being cut down by the mages they are seeking to help.  Regardless it's the mages faults for doing it.  Why would you kill people who are part of the majority that want you to be free? It's not only counter intuitive, it's stupid as it makes regular people even less likely to help you.  Only a god damned fool would support someone who is fighting against their own self safety like mages have shown to the common man.

Where are you getting this "continuously" from? You mean Origins, where the Hero of Ferelden could be from the Circle of Ferelden and ask the new ruler for the local Circle of Magi to be given its independence, which the ruler will decree should happen? Where the mage protagonist and support from the mages can resolve the crisis with Arl Eamon's son? Where two mages can assist The Warden in stopping the Fifth Blight? Or did you mean Awakening, where two mages can assist the Warden-Commander in ending the threat to Amaranthine, and a mage can be the most powerful Andrastian mage in history by becoming the new Arl of Amaranthine, governing a city of Andrastians and having a military at his command, where saving the city can earn the love of the people and protecting all his interests can have the farmers depend on him heavily for safety? I don't see where you're getting this "continuously" from. As much as some people seemed to care about what mages were going in Kirkwall, the problem didn't change for nearly a decade.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rifneno wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The CIrcle system lasted for almost 1000 years, which is (a bit) longer than any organization I know of from our world. So, I'd say the reason for the Circle system to have failed, is far more circumstancial, than an actual inevitability. Unless you wanna go down the: "Everythings' failure is inevitable" road, in which case there isn't much to discuss.

I really should know better than to reply to you on a Chantry thread, but... Tevinter has lasted even longer, so clearly their system is even more awesome.

Who is talking about awesome? Did I say it was an awesomeness which was measured by age? I don't recall I did. I was talking about viability, which the Tevinter obviously have. That does not mean that I like Tevinter, just because I can recognize the viability of the nation.

[GavrielKay]

That the system has been written by a game company as being viable doesn't actually imply that it would work in the real world where people's emotions aren't dictated by a keystroke. When we engage in debates on the forum, we can only debate how we think the characters as written would behave, with a bit of real life experience to guide how we think it should go into the unwritten future.

We are told that the circles have been around for nearly 1000 years, obviously implying that the fictional personalities in the game world were able to stomach a system that would be abhorrent to many in the real world. Now we also told that the mages, once they learn of a circle breaking free (even if it is just a few stragglers who survive apparently), the rest are inspired to free themselves as well. And they succeed.

The war lasts at least 3 years, and obviously it is not going so well for the Templars that the Seekers aren't worried about bringing it to an end. So the mages have enough power to keep the fight alive. They either have enough popular support or they don't need it.

From there we can only debate based on what we think could happen.

It is reasonable to assume that secular governments covet the power of the mages for their military and hospitals. It is reasonable to think that they haven't enjoyed sharing power with the Chantry.

Common folk can be swayed this way and that by careful politicking. I'm sure there will always be die-hards who believe to the core that mages represent impending doom for whatever village they settle in. But there are likely also folk who have known gentle apostates or had children taken away or who would like their very sick child healed and these would be more open to integrating the mages into society.

What I think would be most likely in the real world is that the mages would get some backing of secular governments and enter into talks with the Chantry to negoatiate a new system. The mages would finally have some bargaining power (which they lacked entirely in the game) and be able to force concessions from the Chantry who would prefer a weaker system to none at all.

But this is a fantasy game and there's no way we'd play out an entire game of careful negotiation. I think we'll actually either have it solved between games with a new topic in DA3 or preferably we can actually impact the game world to a marvelous extent by actually helping one side or the other win and have that stand as lore.

[Sinaxi]

The people have no problem with the Chantry controlled Circles in the
same way they have no problem with the horrible living conditions of the
Alienages or the "purges" of the elves. If the mages are supposed to
wait until the common people - who have been taught to hate mages and
see them as cursed for nearly a millennia  - suddenly decide to go
against centuries of indocturination, then the mages will spend another
millennia under oppression. Freedom is preferrable to subjugation.

This. People are literally not using their brains if they think any real type of reform is going to just suddenly happen.

And um, maybe it's just me but I personally don't think the Canticle of Transfigurations is "explicit" it says in like 2 verses that they are using "His" gift against him but yet at the same time it states in Canticle of Threnodies that it was the Old Gods who whispered into the Tevinter men's ears and granted them the darkest secrets of magic. This is referring to blood magic, but since they are known to be the first Magisters I would assume it means they were the first to use ANY magic. I mean, sure...NOW everyone who is born is granted this "gift" by the maker apparently. (but yet when the priests aren't around mages they are calling it a curse...sounds like a great gift.)

[Wulfram]

The first mages would have been Elves, I'd have thought, in Thedas at least. I don't see any reason to believe the Tevinter magisters would have been even the first human mages.

[DPSSOC]

Rifneno wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Isn't that like saying once a beast is free it can never be caged again?  Of course things could go back, things can always go back, the mage rebellion could be crushed and every member exterminated or forced into hiding and the Circles start up all over again, only this time the instructors are 100% Chantry loyalists who will demonize (literally) the rebellious mages who brought so much destruction upon the Maker's children.  Or the rebels could simply decide that surrender is preferable to extermination, not all of them have Anders' zeal.

There is never a point when things can't go back to the way they were, it's just a matter of how hard it is to get them that way..

1. A beast is an unintelligent animal. A mage has as much intelligence as anyone else, and now that they know fighting back is a viable option they aren't going to sit back and take that brutal tyranny.

Yes, and no.  If the Mages win outright or achieve a compromise (Mage run Circles with Templars acting solely as an independent guard for example) then yes fighting back is proven to be a viable option.  If however the Templars win outright it reinforces the idea that it isn't, because in the end the Templars won.  It doesn't change the notion that the Templars will crush them it just puts a timescale on it.

Rifneno wrote...
Whether it makes sense or not for the people whose Hawkes followed the fascist path, the story is that Kirkwall showed the mages that "the templars could be defied." That genie can't be put back in the bottle, no matter what bad metaphor you use.  You can't take back knowledge.

Again yes and no.  Repress an idea long enough and it's forgotten, and while that's a difficult thing to do in the modern age it's remarkably easy the further back you go.  Greek philosophy was lost to the West and we only reclaimed it when we invaded the Arab world that'd kept it.

Rifneno wrote...
2. The war has been going for three years. The war broke out in 9:37 Dragon, and Cassandra is interrogating Varric in 9:40 Dragon. Three years of fighting, and the Chantry is basically grasping at straws by sending its top agents out to try and find a hero to help them mop up the mess. And you think it's a reasonably possibility that the "rebellions will be crushed and every member exterminated?" That's absurd.

Sorry if I wasn't clear I didn't mean to suggest a quick defeat of the mages just a total, eventual, defeat (entirely in the realm of possibility).  There are 3, in my mind equally possible, outcomes to the war; Mages win, Compromise (admittedly broad), Templars win.  If the Templars win I don't think it's a stretch to say they will not be kind to the rebels just as the Mages won't be kind to the Templars.  The bulk of the Templars, like the rest of the Chantry, is Orlesian and we know how they like to deal with rebels.

[DRTJR]

Some people in thedas still know who shartan is so brutal repression of knowledge doesn't seem the chantries forte.

[DPSSOC]

DRTJR wrote...

Some people in thedas still know who shartan is so brutal repression of knowledge doesn't seem the chantries forte.

Other than those two outside Denerim's Chantry?  Maybe I'm just tired but I'm drawing a blank.

[Sons of Horus]

"secular governments" GavrielKay ? This is Dragon Age your playing right? As far as i know there are no secular governments unless you count the Qunari and their attitude towards mages is one of containment.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The people have no problem with the Chantry controlled Circles in
the same way they have no problem with the horrible living conditions of
the Alienages or the "purges" of the elves. If the mages are supposed
to wait until the common people - who have been taught to hate mages and
see them as cursed for nearly a millennia  - suddenly decide to go
against centuries of indocturination, then the mages will spend another
millennia under oppression. Freedom is preferrable to subjugation.

They could have waited till a time when the Qunari threat wasn't as high as it is now that the Llomeryn Accord has been broken, The Chantry is needed to unify the people and the mages are needed to counter the superior technology of the qunari.. Now with both sides fighting each other The Qunari will sweep through the rest of thedas with easy and conquer everyone... Then the mages will come to realise they were better off when they had their tongues and the little rights they still had.
Wish the Mages would have acted sooner... or much later.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Where are you getting this "continuously" from? You mean Origins, where
the Hero of Ferelden could be from the Circle of Ferelden and ask the
new ruler for the local Circle of Magi to be given its independence,
which the ruler will decree should happen? Where the mage protagonist
and support from the mages can resolve the crisis with Arl Eamon's son?
Where two mages can assist The Warden in stopping the Fifth Blight? Or
did you mean Awakening, where two mages can assist the Warden-Commander
in ending the threat to Amaranthine, and a mage can be the most powerful
Andrastian mage in history by becoming the new Arl of Amaranthine,
governing a city of Andrastians and having a military at his command,
where saving the city can earn the love of the people and protecting all
his interests can have the farmers depend on him heavily for safety? I
don't see where you're getting this "continuously" from. As much as some people seemed to care about what mages were going in Kirkwall, the problem didn't change for nearly a decade.

Most powerful Andrastian mage ever if Tevinter didn't exist, That achivement would go to one of tevinters archons since tevinter even though not being under the Orlesian chantry are still considered andrastian.. Also we dont know anything regarding the line of First Wardens.. one of them could have been a mage

 DPSSOC wrote...
Yes, and no.  If the Mages win outright or achieve a compromise (Mage
run Circles with Templars acting solely as an independent guard for
example) then yes fighting back is proven to be a viable option.  If
however the Templars win outright it reinforces the idea that it isn't,
because in the end the Templars won.  It doesn't change the notion that
the Templars will crush them it just puts a timescale on it.

Either both sides with have to make peace or be conquered by the qunari which seems highly likely since they will invade now the Llomeryn Accord is broken. With the Qunari invading Tevinter will either now be able to focus on the southern nations as well and conquer a few which isn't that great for mages anyway since Tevinters magisters dont like foreign mages seeing them as political competiton or imo the more likely scenario, Tevinter will fall to the Qunari since Thedas seems to parallel Medieval Europe. Tevinter being Byzantine the qunari will finally conquer minrathous (Constantinople)

DPSSOC wrote...
Sorry if I wasn't clear I didn't mean to suggest a quick defeat of the
mages just a total, eventual, defeat (entirely in the realm of
possibility).  There are 3, in my mind equally possible, outcomes to the
war; Mages win, Compromise (admittedly broad), Templars win.  If the
Templars win I don't think it's a stretch to say they will not be kind
to the rebels just as the Mages won't be kind to the Templars.  The bulk
of the Templars, like the rest of the Chantry, is Orlesian and we know
how they like to deal with rebels.

The Compromise will be the most likely outcome since hopefully neither side is so arrogant they dont realise the Qunari threat. I would think the mages would come out on top in the negotiations though since their magic is desperatly needed to counter the Qunari's Technological advantage

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 15 juillet 2011 - 02:25 .

[GavrielKay]

Sons of Horus wrote...

"secular governments" GavrielKay ? This is Dragon Age your playing right? As far as i know there are no secular governments unless you count the Qunari and their attitude towards mages is one of containment.

A government can be made up of people who have a belief and still be secular.  King Alistair's rule would be fairly secular in this case.  Orlais probably less so.  We don't know a lot about how Rivain and the Chasind are organized but I've never heard them referred to as outright theocracies.

[Addai]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sons of Horus wrote...

"secular governments" GavrielKay ? This is Dragon Age your playing right? As far as i know there are no secular governments unless you count the Qunari and their attitude towards mages is one of containment.

A government can be made up of people who have a belief and still be secular.  King Alistair's rule would be fairly secular in this case.  Orlais probably less so.  We don't know a lot about how Rivain and the Chasind are organized but I've never heard them referred to as outright theocracies.

The Fereldan government is Andrastian, or it would not maintain alienages and have the Grand Cleric at the Landsmeet with an important voice.

[GavrielKay]

Addai67 wrote...
The Fereldan government is Andrastian, or it would not maintain alienages and have the Grand Cleric at the Landsmeet with an important voice.

The Ferelden government is made up of predominantly Andrastian folks.  It is not a theocracy however.  Alistair was able to decree that the circle be freed, even though the Chantry refused to do it.  Alistair is not a member of the Chantry hierarchy, he is just a man who happens to have been brought up as an Andrastian.

Edit:  my gammar sucks this morning

Modifié par GavrielKay, 15 juillet 2011 - 03:49 .

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

The Fereldan government is Andrastian, or it would not maintain alienages and have the Grand Cleric at the Landsmeet with an important voice.

No.  The Fereldan Govt is secular.  It has authority outside the chantry.  It claims this authority comes from the Maker (Divine Right) which means that there is a strong religious component, but secular govt do exist (just as they did in the middle ages and rennaissance).  Even the Haupsberg line of the HRE was technically a secular govt (the Emperor was even elected!). 

More to the point, Alistair seems to be on the knife edge of "Going Chuch of England" on the Divine which would make the issue brutally clear.  In fact Maric and Loghain nearly did so after the Orlesian occupation so it's not a new thought in Fereldan.

-Polaris

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Should mages be put to "practical use", that could lead down the road to indentured servitude or slavery (removing Tevinter from consideration here). And forcing labors from mages could lead to unrest.

Bang on the button, I think.

The last thing the Chantry wants are unhappy people who can fling fireballs from their fingertips.

And yet unhappy mages who can fling fireballs from their fingertips are what we see more often now. What does that tell us? Perhaps some sort of law of unintended consequences at work here?

I think the quote is meant to remind mage and non-mage alike of humility

If by humility you mean a lack of sense of false pride, then I'll agree. Otherwise, I don't care much for that word.
 

- that great power is bestowed for the benefit of man,

I think I can equate "magic" with "great power" on some levels. Although, I think there is some amount of the skill of the mage also at work - the skill to channel that power to do its intended thing. So, I do not think of it [magic] as some kind of great power that is automatically bestowed for someone's benefit.

I don't know about you, but certain niggling things do crop up: bestowed for the benefit of which man? And bestowed by whom? Although, one could respond to the latter by saying the Maker, well, we don't know that for sure, yet.

 
not as a means to rule over him.

I think this is the only part that can be viewed without much moral ambiguity.

* Edit (had to walk away before I had truly finished my thought) - The above isn't to say that the a beautiful lyric can't be manipulated or perverted for negative means. Maybe the intended thought behind the quote was one of purity, but how it is used down the line may be a complete departure.

Perhaps it can be viewed as a beautiful lyric. But is there anything beyond that facade? Let's look:
"Magic exists to serve man": I think we can agree that magic is not like some apple that can be plucked from some welcoming tree. Magic needs a mage to make it real. So, corrected in that sense, the sentence reads: "magic that can be wielded by a mage exists to serve man." Now, I think we run into moral ambiguities. Is it possible for magic to serve man without also the mage taking up that servitude? And, further, serve which man? Can we be sure that the man and the mage were meant to be the one and the same?

Issues such as this always make me view "magic exists to serve man" with cynicism. I think (my opinion, of course) that that statement is purely one of enslavement. I can sympathize with the other half though, "magic exists not to rule over him (again mankind, in general, as I interpret it)."

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The people have no problem with the Chantry controlled Circles in the same way they have no problem with the horrible living conditions of the Alienages or the "purges" of the elves. If the mages are supposed to wait until the common people - who have been taught to hate mages and see them as cursed for nearly a millennia  - suddenly decide to go against centuries of indocturination, then the mages will spend another millennia under oppression. Freedom is preferrable to subjugation.

They could have waited till a time when the Qunari threat wasn't as high as it is now that the Llomeryn Accord has been broken, The Chantry is needed to unify the people and the mages are needed to counter the superior technology of the qunari.. Now with both sides fighting each other The Qunari will sweep through the rest of thedas with easy and conquer everyone... Then the mages will come to realise they were better off when they had their tongues and the little rights they still had.
Wish the Mages would have acted sooner... or much later.

It's been three years, and Hawke can resolve the conflict by fighting the Arishok in single combat (and being respected by the other Qunari who leave and the one Qunari who addresses Hawke with respect because the Arishok viewed him with high regard) or he can abide by the Arishok's demands by handing over Isabela. It's been six years (at the conclusion of the storyline) and there's no mention of the Qunari leadership invading the rest of Thedas. If the Qunari did invade, the Circles of Magi were the "greatest advantage" against them - according to historical scholar Brother Genitivi.

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Where are you getting this "continuously" from? You mean Origins, where the Hero of Ferelden could be from the Circle of Ferelden and ask the new ruler for the local Circle of Magi to be given its independence, which the ruler will decree should happen? Where the mage protagonist and support from the mages can resolve the crisis with Arl Eamon's son? Where two mages can assist The Warden in stopping the Fifth Blight? Or did you mean Awakening, where two mages can assist the Warden-Commander in ending the threat to Amaranthine, and a mage can be the most powerful Andrastian mage in history by becoming the new Arl of Amaranthine, governing a city of Andrastians and having a military at his command, where saving the city can earn the love of the people and protecting all
his interests can have the farmers depend on him heavily for safety? I don't see where you're getting this "continuously" from. As much as some people seemed to care about what mages were going in Kirkwall, the problem didn't change for nearly a decade.

Most powerful Andrastian mage ever if Tevinter didn't exist, That achivement would go to one of tevinters archons since tevinter even though not being under the Orlesian chantry are still considered andrastian.. Also we dont know anything regarding the line of First Wardens.. one of them could have been a mage

When Tevinter mages re-established themselves in positions of authority in the Imperium, they ceceded from the Chantry of Andraste and created the Imperial Chantry - as I said previously, the Hero of Ferelden is the most powerful "Andrastian" (i.e. mage in one of the Andrastian nations under the Chantry of Andraste) in history. Oddly, Knight-Commander Meredith never comments on this, even though King Alistair makes it clear in conversation with Tegan that the Hero of Ferelden is waiting in Denerim (apparently, having returned from the Eluvian if he left with Morrigan). And the First Warden doesn't officially wield any political power - the people of the Anderfels turn to them because their king is weak, while the Warden-Commander is the Arl of Amaranthine, giving him political and military might in his arling.

XxDeonxX wrote...

 DPSSOC wrote...
Yes, and no.  If the Mages win outright or achieve a compromise (Mage run Circles with Templars acting solely as an independent guard for example) then yes fighting back is proven to be a viable option.  If however the Templars win outright it reinforces the idea that it isn't, because in the end the Templars won.  It doesn't change the notion that
the Templars will crush them it just puts a timescale on it.

Either both sides with have to make peace or be conquered by the qunari which seems highly likely since they will invade now the Llomeryn Accord is broken. With the Qunari invading Tevinter will either now be able to focus on the southern nations as well and conquer a few which isn't that great for mages anyway since Tevinters magisters dont like foreign mages seeing them as political competiton or imo the more likely scenario, Tevinter will fall to the Qunari since Thedas seems to parallel Medieval Europe. Tevinter being Byzantine the qunari will finally conquer minrathous (Constantinople)

It's been broken before, and the Qunari never invaded - first when the "Qunari" converts of the Kingdom of Rivain refused to leave, and second when the Andrastians of the Kingdom of Rivain murdered the converts. I don't see why the Arishok's actions will be any different.

XxDeonxX wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Sorry if I wasn't clear I didn't mean to suggest a quick defeat of the mages just a total, eventual, defeat (entirely in the realm of possibility).  There are 3, in my mind equally possible, outcomes to the war; Mages win, Compromise (admittedly broad), Templars win.  If the Templars win I don't think it's a stretch to say they will not be kind
to the rebels just as the Mages won't be kind to the Templars.  The bulk of the Templars, like the rest of the Chantry, is Orlesian and we know how they like to deal with rebels.

The Compromise will be the most likely outcome since hopefully neither side is so arrogant they dont realise the Qunari threat. I would think the mages would come out on top in the negotiations though since their magic is desperatly needed to counter the Qunari's Technological advantage

It has nothing to do with arrogance, and there's no evidence the Qunari are planning to invade when the Accord has been broken at least three times already. There can't be a compromise because the templars want to rule over the mages and the mages want independence from the Chantry - it's impossible.

[MichaelFinnegan]

GavrielKay wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The Fereldan government is Andrastian, or it would not maintain alienages and have the Grand Cleric at the Landsmeet with an important voice.

The Ferelden government is made up of predominantly Andrastian folks.  It is not a theocracy however.  Alistair was able to decree that the circle be freed, even though the Chantry refused to do it.  Alistair is not a member of the Chantry hierarchy, he is just a man who happens to have been brought up as an Andrastian.

Edit:  my gammar sucks this morning

For that matter, before Act 3, even the "government" in Kirkwall was supposed to be "secular." Seneshal Bran says that the rule of Kirkwall has been deliberately kept separate from the rule of the Chantry, with the nobles voting to decide who becomes the Viscount. Although he also says something like: what is good for Kirkwall is inexorably tied with what is good for the Templars.

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...


It has nothing to do with arrogance, and there's no evidence the Qunari are planning to invade when the Accord has been broken at least three times already. There can't be a compromise because the templars want to rule over the mages and the mages want independence from the Chantry - it's impossible.

It's got nothing to do with the Accord being broken, but there are indications that invasion is imminent.  Sten seems to anticipate an invasion of Fereldan with his and the Warden's lifetime, and the Arishok proclaims that "we shall return".

And compromise is possible.  The Templars, at least the better ones, want to rule over the mages because they see that is the best way to protect the public - if they can't reestablish their absolute control then allowing the mages autonomy is better than an endless war and anarchy.  While most mages are just ordinary people who want to live reasonably normal lives.  Offer them a deal which allows them to do that, and they'll accept that there need to be some controls on them, particularly since many of them are almost as afraid of their gift as the Templars.

[GavrielKay]

Wulfram wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


It has nothing to do with arrogance, and there's no evidence the Qunari are planning to invade when the Accord has been broken at least three times already. There can't be a compromise because the templars want to rule over the mages and the mages want independence from the Chantry - it's impossible.

It's got nothing to do with the Accord being broken, but there are indications that invasion is imminent.  Sten seems to anticipate an invasion of Fereldan with his and the Warden's lifetime, and the Arishok proclaims that "we shall return".

And compromise is possible.  The Templars, at least the better ones, want to rule over the mages because they see that is the best way to protect the public - if they can't reestablish their absolute control then allowing the mages autonomy is better than an endless war and anarchy.  While most mages are just ordinary people who want to live reasonably normal lives.  Offer them a deal which allows them to do that, and they'll accept that there need to be some controls on them, particularly since many of them are almost as afraid of their gift as the Templars.

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if some future DA game was written so that the mages and Templars/Chantry come to exactly such a compromise in order to allow them to come together to fight the Qunari.

In any case, the threat of Qunari invasion is nebulous and the attrocities in the circles are ongoing.  I don't fault the mages for acting when they had an opportunity shoved upon them.  The Templars could just as easily have said "oh dear this has gone too far and we'd better make peace now to prepare for an invasion."

If the Chantry is too caught up in its dogma to compromise, the governments who are under threat from the Qunari certainly could offer the mages protection in return for their efforts should war break out.

[Addai]

GavrielKay wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The Fereldan government is Andrastian, or it would not maintain alienages and have the Grand Cleric at the Landsmeet with an important voice.

The Ferelden government is made up of predominantly Andrastian folks.  It is not a theocracy however.  Alistair was able to decree that the circle be freed, even though the Chantry refused to do it.  Alistair is not a member of the Chantry hierarchy, he is just a man who happens to have been brought up as an Andrastian.

Edit:  my gammar sucks this morning

And the Empress in Orlais is not a Chantry sister, either, nor the magisters in Tevinter.  However the Chantry is just as interwoven with the crown in Ferelden as it is in other Andrastian countries.  Again, the Grand Cleric speaks at the Landsmeet- she is a political figure.  The mage boon is worthless, so all that really shows is that the crown can decree but what actually happens is another story.  Central authority is weakened in Ferelden, such that no one institution holds absolute sway, but that is inherent in a Germanic freeholder-based system.

Really the problem is trying to impose the idea of "secular" on Thedas at all.  Civil government =/ secular government as we understand that term.  There have been very few true theocracies in history, none in European history that I can think of.

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...
No.  The Fereldan Govt is secular.  It has authority outside the chantry.  It claims this authority comes from the Maker (Divine Right) which means that there is a strong religious component, but secular govt do exist (just as they did in the middle ages and rennaissance).  Even the Haupsberg line of the HRE was technically a secular govt (the Emperor was even elected!). 

More to the point, Alistair seems to be on the knife edge of "Going Chuch of England" on the Divine which would make the issue brutally clear.  In fact Maric and Loghain nearly did so after the Orlesian occupation so it's not a new thought in Fereldan.

-Polaris

I don't see any indication that Alistair wants to proclaim himself a divine figurehead.

I think he'd probably be horrified at the notion, in fact.