116 réponses à ce sujet

[telephasic]

I thought it would be interesting to talk about content in Dragon Age which should really have been left out of the game, in order to allow for more needed development in other areas.

Flemeth:   She played no role in the game whatsoever, despite her big role in the introduction, and how much they hyped her in the marketing.  I'd actually argue that having her in the game was damaging, in some ways,  as it gave players the mistaken idea that Hawke was in some manner special, and not just some dude/dudette who got caught up in events.  I'm sure they could have come up with some plausible manner to get the Hawkes out of Lothering without her. 

Anders:  Although there were issues with Dragon Age Awakening, people loved Anders, who was a fun-loving, happy-go-lucky Mage who just became an apostate because he didn't want anyone telling him what to do.  Through his mind-meld with Justice, they eliminated essentially all vestiges of his former personality, which enraged the original fans who wanted him included (plus the fans of Justice, who was an interesting character they turned into a mindless demon-like force).  Quite honestly, his role in the plot could have easily been served by some other mage - a non-possessed mage who could have been given a more credible reason to attack the chantry.  Also, without Anders in the story, they could have avoided the continuity errors many people pointed out - that Chapter 1 happened before/during Awakening. 

The other cameos:  Alistair is involved in a non-quest quest. Leliana's appearence was fine IMHO, but it was made canon, which broke immersion in campaigns where she died.  Zevren's was okay I thought, but it served no game purpose - I thought it should have been tied to Isabella's personal quest - why were they all back-loaded into Chapter 3 anyway?  

The random item quests: Although in general side quests were better in DA2, these left me scratching my head.  How do we pick up random items, and then mysteriously know to whom to deliver them?  Who is updating our codex?  Why should we do all this for only 50 silver?  

The lyrium idol:  A lot of people have mentioned the game is cheapened by the reveal that Meridith is under the influence of the idol late in Act 3.  I'd go further, and say the idol itself was a stupid idea.  It would have been better in terms of writing if Bartrand left his brother locked in the deep roads while being fully sane, and a different Act 2 personal quest for Varric could have been written. 

Everything outside of Kirkwall:  This is going to be the most questioned of my statements, but I think the game should have gone the whole nine yards, and had nothing but Kirkwall.  Yes, I mean they should have cut out Sundermount, the Bone Pit, and the Wounded Coast (the Deep Roads could have survived as a passage under the city for the end of Act 1).  Why you ask?  Because the focus of the game was Kirkwall anyway.  The external areas were only a tease, and made it feel like Origins Lite.  Ultimately, I think the game would have been better served with another three urban districts instead, and presumably a few more dungeon maps made.

Any additions?  

Modifié par telephasic, 12 juillet 2011 - 01:06 .

[Rifneno]

So you want less quests and no mystery to keep us guessing and/or setting up sequels/DLC. Gonna have to disagree on this one.

[whykikyouwhy]

Perhaps you're not looking for voices of disagreement, but...

I think Flemeth was a nice addition. She will probably serve to unite the DA games, past and future, and will probably play a large role in the overall story. It was great to see her looking incredibly bad*ss. And for all we know, Hawke will be special, even if some people may not believe he/she was in DA2.

The "outside of Kirkwall" areas are within the borders of Kirkwall, I believe. While not part of the city exactly, they fall under the control of the Viscount. I don't think including some scenic bits of beach and forest shifted any focus.

[Vicious]

My main problem with the Lyrium Idol was that you recieved absolutely no information about it, it's creators or what the hell it was made of. [red lyrium of ubergodly power is the best i've heard]

This was made worse when it was destroyed, completely absolving Bioware from ever having to use it again or refer back to it.

Which turns it from possible cool story piece to a MacGuffin and Deus Ex Machina rolled into one.

And like I said, worst part is it will probably never be referred back to again. Like Morrigan's child. Seemed like a HUGE DEAL at the end of DA:O, to many people the most memorable part of the game was their decision, only to be told by Morri in Witch Hunt that she didn't need it anyway.

Crap storytelling at it's best.

Modifié par Vicious, 12 juillet 2011 - 12:32 .

[Areksu]

Vicious wrote...

My main problem with the Lyrium Idol was that you recieved absolutely no information about it, it's creators or what the hell it was made of. [red lyrium of ubergodly power is the best i've heard]

This was made worse when it was destroyed, completely absolving Bioware from ever having to use it again or refer back to it.

Which turns it from possible cool story piece to a MacGuffin and Deus Ex Machina rolled into one.

And like I said, worst part is it will probably never be referred back to again. Like Morrigan's child. Seemed like a HUGE DEAL at the end of DA:O, to many people the most memorable part of the game was their decision, only to be told by Morri in Witch Hunt that she didn't need it anyway.

Crap storytelling at it's best.

Actually, the worst thing about the Lyrium Idol was the character who got her hands on it patronizes mages for using blood magic, is a templar, and is surrounded by people who should be able to tell her that the lyrium has evil magic in it. There is no reason given for why Meredith would even want such an item. Sure, she is a complete ****, but prior to Act 3 she would not tolerate a single instance of blood magic, let alone an evil idol forged with blood magic. Either we are missing some very important information here or this idol was just forced onto a character whose prime motives would preclude her from ever using it. 

Modifié par Areksu, 12 juillet 2011 - 12:57 .

[telephasic]

Rifneno wrote...

So you want less quests and no mystery to keep us guessing and/or setting up sequels/DLC. Gonna have to disagree on this one.

Huh?  

With the exception of the random item quests, which I just think should have been cut period, I think all the rest could have easily been replaced with other content. 

What would I have liked?  

I think Wynne should have been in the story, starting in Act 2.  I realize she would have been geting up there, and we have no evidence she lived more than a few years after the blight.  But I think having a totally sane, good mage possessed by a benign spirit, who is loyal to The Circle, would have been a great counterbalance to all the crazy mages.  Party member or not, I don't care.  

I think cameos could have been done intelligently.  Zevran, as I said, should have been part of Isabella's personal quest.  Liliana could have been used, but they should have had an alternate if she was dead. 

I think Kirkwall needed a ton of work.  I remember when Anders told me we were going into the sewers, and we got down there, and it looked - nothing like sewers.  How does a game based in a city not have a good sewer system?  To quote a classic, it's an urban man's dungeon!  

Most importantly, I think the game needed to make clear you DON'T need to be possessed by demons, or under the influence of awful magic, to do awful things.  Well, the game did do that with the Qunari, which is probably why it was the best segment of the game.  

Modifié par telephasic, 12 juillet 2011 - 01:05 .

[whykikyouwhy]

telephasic wrote...

Most importantly, I think the game needed to make clear you DON'T need to be possessed by demons, or under the influence of awful magic, to do awful things.  Well, the game did do that with the Qunari, which is probably why it was the best segment of the game.  

DA2 had some prime examples of characters doing awful things but not being possessed:

 - Hayder & Castillon
 - Captain Jevan
 - Javaris
 - Petrice

Not a full list, and folks may not find any of them (or their deeds) awful, but they were characters that leaned toward the shady and deceitful, and cost many their lives in the process.

[Harid]

Knight of Phoenix said some great things about this that I agree with.  I don't know what he said verbatim, but I am going to say what I felt needed to be cut.

No Lyrium Idol.  People have their own motivations and ideologies and magical idols that make you crazy pretty much invalidate them.

Introducing Meredith earlier.  Villains only work when they are introduced early and your hatred for them are allowed to fester.  The same goes for Orsino.

No Qunari Skirmish.  No Champion Subplot that resulted in a whole lot of nothing.  People don't generally want to see our characters stumble into a title and then summarily do nothing to prove they deserved it prospectively.  I would have added a Qunari companion that would have given the same exposition about Qunari.  It would not be a mage.

Focusing on the Mage Templar war from Chapter 1.

I personally would not have had Meredith as the last boss, but a Abomination rampaging Anders as the last boss.  Anders knowing how to create bombs is stupid, it's supposed to be a rare art known to a handful of people.  We got great stories of the power of Anders when he let Vengeance take over but we never saw it, and it would give a non deus ex machina last boss.  If you are pro mage/ don't care, you are stopping him from destroying the city.  If you are anti mage you are putting him down.  Either way, YOU would be doing something rather than being in the wake of the aftermath of Anders' decision.

I would have shown the growing Resolutionist movement.  I would have had a non mage mage sympathizer group.  I also would have shown conditions in the Circle.

I would have removed the stupid Harverster Orsino. and the stupid I helped Quentin kill your mother, ogedybogedyboo!  He's a first enchanter.  Just make him a powerful mage.

I would have tried to make the Templars a little more sympathetic so that this war was grey.

I would have made magic cause punishment from templars until you pay for a pass to use it much like in Baldur's Gate 2.  If you don't pay the Templars get mightier until you can't kill them.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Harid wrote...

Knight of Phoenix said some great things about this that I agree with.  I don't know what he said verbatim, but I am going to say what I felt needed to be cut.

No Lyrium Idol.  People have their own motivations and ideologies and magical idols that make you crazy pretty much invalidate them.

Introducing Meredith earlier.  Villains only work when they are introduced early and your hatred for them are allowed to fester.  The same goes for Orsino.

No Qunari Skirmish.  No Champion Subplot that resulted in a whole lot of nothing.  People don't generally want to see our characters stumble into a title and then summarily do nothing to prove they deserved it prospectively.  I would have added a Qunari companion that would have given the same exposition about Qunari.  It would not be a mage.

Focusing on the Mage Templar war from Chapter 1.

I personally would not have had Meredith as the last boss, but a Abomination rampaging Anders as the last boss.  Anders knowing how to create bombs is stupid, it's supposed to be a rare art known to a handful of people.  We got great stories of the power of Anders when he let Vengeance take over but we never saw it, and it would give a non deus ex machina last boss.  If you are pro mage/ don't care, you are stopping him from destroying the city.  If you are anti mage you are putting him down.  Either way, YOU would be doing something rather than being in the wake of the aftermath of Anders' decision.

I would have shown the growing Resolutionist movement.  I would have had a non mage mage sympathizer group.  I also would have shown conditions in the Circle.

I would have removed the stupid Harverster Orsino. and the stupid I helped Quentin kill your mother, ogedybogedyboo!  He's a first enchanter.  Just make him a powerful mage.

I would have tried to make the Templars a little more sympathetic so that this war was grey.

I would have made magic cause punishment from templars until you pay for a pass to use it much like in Baldur's Gate 2.  If you don't pay the Templars get mightier until you can't kill them.

Good post, can't help but find myself agreeing.

Personally I would also change the prologue as it is, or just cut it altogether. Like villains that need to be introduced early on for giving the player a chance to hate them, just having a character the player just met die for no good reason isn't good storytelling. Then there's not showing Lothering and/or Gwaren as well...

[Harid]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Good post, can't help but find myself agreeing.

Personally I would also change the prologue as it is, or just cut it altogether. Like villains that need to be introduced early on for giving the player a chance to hate them, just having a character the player just met die for no good reason isn't good storytelling. Then there's not showing Lothering and/or Gwaren as well...

I have stated several times that they should have had a prologue in Lothering, because killing off characters that you just met 5 mins ago is not only bad storytelling, but won't allow people to care about those characters.  I stated this before release, but yeah, I agree.

[Elessara]

The "paying for a pass to use magic a la BG2" wouldn't really work in the DA universe. You're either a mage in the Circle or you're an apostate who's supposed to be either killed or captured and placed in the Circle. Mage Hawke using magic in front of anyone without comment is a mechanics thing that would be better solved by .... well, changing game mechanics heh.

[Elessara]

Harid wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Good post, can't help but find myself agreeing.

Personally I would also change the prologue as it is, or just cut it altogether. Like villains that need to be introduced early on for giving the player a chance to hate them, just having a character the player just met die for no good reason isn't good storytelling. Then there's not showing Lothering and/or Gwaren as well...

I have stated several times that they should have had a prologue in Lothering, because killing off characters that you just met 5 mins ago is not only bad storytelling, but won't allow people to care about those characters.  I stated this before release, but yeah, I agree.

Definitely agree with the prologue in Lothering thing.  Would have liked more family interaction BEFORE having to flee.

[Harid]

Elessara wrote...

The "paying for a pass to use magic a la BG2" wouldn't really work in the DA universe. You're either a mage in the Circle or you're an apostate who's supposed to be either killed or captured and placed in the Circle. Mage Hawke using magic in front of anyone without comment is a mechanics thing that would be better solved by .... well, changing game mechanics heh.

If they didn't let you cast magic in town, certain fights would be difficult for mages or mage parties.  Heck, even Baldur's Gate 2 wasn't perfect, as I can not remember one time ever when enemy mages would get shut down, outside of the prologue with Irenicus, but hey.  They would simply have to rewrite pretty much every in town conflict you run into.  Furthermore I don't want to create in game disparities between players of mages and players of melee classes.  Quests, sure. . .but a completely different story. . .ehh.

Just say it's a pass because of close proximity of the Tevinter Imperium and the neccesity to have a standing force of mages in town or something, given the Free Marches borders the Imperium.

Hell, you could pay someone for some kind of Circle pass or something, given the fact that we've seen certain mages are allowed to go out and about without supervison, like Wynne and such.  They have to have some sort of pin or badge license or something that stops them from being killed by Templars, logically.  You could pay some crooked Circle Mage for that, I don't care, but there should be repercussions for free casting in the city, but you should be able to remove them.

Modifié par Harid, 12 juillet 2011 - 04:37 .

[TJPags]

Lose Flemeth - she meant nothing to the story.

Lose the Lyrium idol . . . it was a whole lot of nothing excep an excuse for people to hate.

Lose the Zevran cameo and the Alistair cameo . . . nothing but fanservice.

Lose Leliana - I didn't see where she was so important that some other, new character couldn't have worked fine.

[Wentletrap]

Harid wrote...

Knight of Phoenix said some great things about this that I agree with.  I don't know what he said verbatim, but I am going to say what I felt needed to be cut.

Great post and ideas.

Anders as a final boss.... wow, that would have been a great twist, especially if you romanced him .

Personally, I would have cut the Deep Roads.  It felt like an insult to the original Deep Roads in DAO.  

To the OP:  I actually like the idea of the game being limited to the city of Kirkwall...  *if* it  truly felt like a living / breathing city, and grew and changed over the course of the game.

[Huntress]

Harid wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Good post, can't help but find myself agreeing.

Personally I would also change the prologue as it is, or just cut it altogether. Like villains that need to be introduced early on for giving the player a chance to hate them, just having a character the player just met die for no good reason isn't good storytelling. Then there's not showing Lothering and/or Gwaren as well...

I have stated several times that they should have had a prologue in Lothering, because killing off characters that you just met 5 mins ago is not only bad storytelling, but won't allow people to care about those characters.  I stated this before release, but yeah, I agree.

I remember that coming up just after DA 2 demo came out.. I thought we could have done more about it.. Everyone including me probably thought the demo was old and....
Anyway people was bored of the warden saving the world and now they cant stop mentioning.. is like Deja Vu but going reverse mode..
Few people and me were asking for the warden story to continue, in the mean time bioware and players were destroying the warden and now is them asking for the warden to come back, and me not wanting to go back... it feels kinda wierd.

[Harid]

I have no inherent problem with a smaller struggle, hell, I love Spartacus, and it occurs under one house in a town and is still epic.

The problem is this wasn't a well written story, didn't have well written villains, only had less than a handful of well written characters, and it needed another year or so in the oven.

I just hope Bioware learns from this decision.

Modifié par Harid, 12 juillet 2011 - 02:11 .

[Elessara]

@Harid ... That's why I said it would require a mechanics change. A rather significant one at that. I have an idea how it would work but I'm not really sure anyone would be interested in hearing it. Or it would have required BW to basically write a completely different story for a mage Hawke - which would have been even better actually. You'd really get to see the affects of being an illegal mage that way.

[telephasic]

Harid wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Good post, can't help but find myself agreeing.

Personally I would also change the prologue as it is, or just cut it altogether. Like villains that need to be introduced early on for giving the player a chance to hate them, just having a character the player just met die for no good reason isn't good storytelling. Then there's not showing Lothering and/or Gwaren as well...

I have stated several times that they should have had a prologue in Lothering, because killing off characters that you just met 5 mins ago is not only bad storytelling, but won't allow people to care about those characters.  I stated this before release, but yeah, I agree.

The more I've thought about it, the more I think the prologue was meant to be a placeholder, but they didn't have time to finish the real prologue.  As in, they really were planning on a longer prologue which started in Lothering.  It's the only thing that makes sense. 

[Harid]

Elessara wrote...

@Harid ... That's why I said it would require a mechanics change. A rather significant one at that. I have an idea how it would work but I'm not really sure anyone would be interested in hearing it. Or it would have required BW to basically write a completely different story for a mage Hawke - which would have been even better actually. You'd really get to see the affects of being an illegal mage that way.

I stated I don't agree with this.

I don't feel that one choice of class should be considered the 'true path' which it would be if rogues and warriors also did not have different stories as well.

As for the above poster, they could have easily spent their time on day one prologue free dlc if they felt that wasn't a proper prologue, or would have worked on one at this point.  I feel like we got that crappy prologue to appeal to the dudebros Bioware seems to be trying to appeal to or at least appears to be, based on their marketing,  at this current time.

Modifié par Harid, 12 juillet 2011 - 02:30 .

[Big I]

Act 3 should have been cut, making Act 2 the ending. The event so of Act 3 would have worked better as an expansion/dlc.

[Sajuro]

Wentletrap wrote...

Harid wrote...

Knight of Phoenix said some great things about this that I agree with.  I don't know what he said verbatim, but I am going to say what I felt needed to be cut.

Great post and ideas.

Anders as a final boss.... wow, that would have been a great twist, especially if you romanced him .

Personally, I would have cut the Deep Roads.  It felt like an insult to the original Deep Roads in DAO.  

To the OP:  I actually like the idea of the game being limited to the city of Kirkwall...  *if* it  truly felt like a living / breathing city, and grew and changed over the course of the game.

I actually would more readily call the deep roads quest from DA 2 to be an apology for the A Paragon of Her Kind quest if anything.
I don't think that final boss Anders would be popular, especially if he  was still an LI, it would be like having a shoot out with Miranda at the end of Mass Effect 2 if you blow up the collector base.

[Myzzrimm]

I support the magic license 100%, with a permit attained in a quest varric, or hell, a templar could give you.

This is dragon age. Apostates are to be apprehended, or killed. Giving hawke a free pass for no reason is just plain silly.

[Foolsfolly]

The lyrium idol should have been cut from the game completely.

I find myself also thinking Flemeth should have been cut, even though I really enjoyed her. She just offered nothing to the plot, at least in DA:O she set you on your path, saved you, and gave you Morrigan. Here she just saves you and then says some decent lines.

[Sajuro]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The lyrium idol should have been cut from the game completely.

I find myself also thinking Flemeth should have been cut, even though I really enjoyed her. She just offered nothing to the plot, at least in DA:O she set you on your path, saved you, and gave you Morrigan. Here she just saves you and then says some decent lines.

She gives you Merrill, provides some fun foreshadowing, and sets you on your path albiet indirectly.