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[TEWR]

[quote]telephasic wrote...

I thought it would be interesting to talk about content in Dragon Age which should really have been left out of the game, in order to allow for more needed development in other areas.

Flemeth:   She played no role in the game whatsoever, despite her big role in the introduction, and how much they hyped her in the marketing.  I'd actually argue that having her in the game was damaging, in some ways,  as it gave players the mistaken idea that Hawke was in some manner special, and not just some dude/dudette who got caught up in events.  I'm sure they could have come up with some plausible manner to get the Hawkes out of Lothering without her.  [/quote]

No Flemeth should be in the games. She's the part that ties them all together. She seems to know the future, so she'll appear and give us vague hints on the future. Flemeth is the key that opens the doors of the game.


[quote]
Anders:  Although there were issues with Dragon Age Awakening, people loved Anders, who was a fun-loving, happy-go-lucky Mage who just became an apostate because he didn't want anyone telling him what to do.  Through his mind-meld with Justice, they eliminated essentially all vestiges of his former personality, which enraged the original fans who wanted him included (plus the fans of Justice, who was an interesting character they turned into a mindless demon-like force).  Quite honestly, his role in the plot could have easily been served by some other mage - a non-possessed mage who could have been given a more credible reason to attack the chantry.  Also, without Anders in the story, they could have avoided the continuity errors many people pointed out - that Chapter 1 happened before/during Awakening.  [/quote]


Anders was actually perfect for DA2 imo. I didn't see him as a purely happy sunshine-and-rainbows character in Awakening. I saw him as a man who used jokes as a shield because of the harsh life he's had to live. Ripped away from his parents at an early age, escaping numerous times (the last of which resulted in solitary confinement for 1 year), etc. He makes it clear in Awakening that he believes Andraste cautioned men to find their own path to the Maker, that magic has been twisted around by the Chantry to mean they are sinners.

His comments to Wynne imo showed that while he disliked Chantry oversight, the mages can't just pull away entirely without a valid reason. He's not a supporter of the Chantry controlled Circles there. He's a supporter of mages not making a rash decision that could result in genocide. Without a reason, a justifiable one, it would be a foolish endeavor.

Also, the continuity errors could've easily been avoided and have Anders in the game if Act 1 took place 2 years after Hawke arrived in Kirkwall, not 1.

[quote]
The other cameos:  Alistair is involved in a non-quest quest. Leliana's appearence was fine IMHO, but it was made canon, which broke immersion in campaigns where she died.  Zevren's was okay I thought, but it served no game purpose - I thought it should have been tied to Isabella's personal quest - why were they all back-loaded into Chapter 3 anyway?  [/quote]

[/quote]

I thought Alistair's cameo served a purpose.

1) To show how Alistair is ruling the country.
2) To show that the choice of who's ruling has been recognized, which was very important.
3) Alistair is seeking allies because of the impending war with Orlais that seems imminent.


Alistair is a king, and as such he needs to do kingly things.

[quote]
The random item quests: Although in general side quests were better in DA2, these left me scratching my head.  How do we pick up random items, and then mysteriously know to whom to deliver them?  Who is updating our codex?  Why should we do all this for only 50 silver?  [/quote]

I'd say Hawke is updating the journal, as they are his quests.

I'd also say that some quests actually give you enough information to go on. Example: The One True Pantaloons. In that, you discover that these fine dwarven trousers are fit for a.... well.... dwarf. One who would frequent Hightown and be finely dressed (and the dwarf it belongs to is finely dressed). That's some information, but it requires you to read the journal, which imo is unfair (I am not defending the FedEx quests. I'm just merely pointing out that it didn't always give you vague information)

Hawke should've done some investigating (and if they're rare items, faced some bandits). Or they should've just been Chanter's Board quests.

"I've lost a pair of trousers and I require them. They were finely tailored to fit me, and were expensive. It's foolish, I know, but alas I will pay the person who finds them. The last place I remember having them was in an underground passage. I must've dropped them in there."

That would've been enough, as Origins also had fetch quests in chanter's board form, Mages' Collective form, etc..

[quote]
The lyrium idol:  A lot of people have mentioned the game is cheapened by the reveal that Meridith is under the influence of the idol late in Act 3.  I'd go further, and say the idol itself was a stupid idea.  It would have been better in terms of writing if Bartrand left his brother locked in the deep roads while being fully sane, and a different Act 2 personal quest for Varric could have been written.  [/quote]

I feel the lyrium idol is actually important to DA2 (obviously), but the problem isn't the idol itself. It's how little we get to know Meredith to see how the idol affects her and how we don't even get a chance to learn anything more about this new type of lyrium.

I would've been fine if it wasn't in her hands, but still found in the Deep Roads. I would've also been fine if she did have it but we met her early on and got to know her. I'll have to dig up a post I made when I was talking to Foolsfolly about ways the Idol should've been used with Meredith. Not sure which thread it was in though....

[quote]
Everything outside of Kirkwall:  This is going to be the most questioned of my statements, but I think the game should have gone the whole nine yards, and had nothing but Kirkwall.  Yes, I mean they should have cut out Sundermount, the Bone Pit, and the Wounded Coast (the Deep Roads could have survived as a passage under the city for the end of Act 1).  Why you ask?  Because the focus of the game was Kirkwall anyway.  The external areas were only a tease, and made it feel like Origins Lite.  Ultimately, I think the game would have been better served with another three urban districts instead, and presumably a few more dungeon maps made.

Any additions?  
[/quote]


No I think people would've reacted horribly to that. The areas should've actually showed some sort of physical change over the years, Kirkwall especially.

[Harid]

I also think they should have shown more of the marches.  It's not like we will be coming back to the marches post Dragon Age 2 anyway, it would have been better to show the region more so we could get a flavor of the region like we have with Fereldan.  It would have also given us a taste of the surrounding area and how they interact with Nevarra, the Tevinter Imperium and Antiva, which would have given Bioware a better taste on where to take the series next instead of Orzammarr Mk. II with Eyes Wide Shut Masks, aka Orlais.

I am not looking forward to Orlais.

[TEWR]

Harid wrote...

Knight of Phoenix said some great things about this that I agree with.  I don't know what he said verbatim, but I am going to say what I felt needed to be cut.

No Lyrium Idol.  People have their own motivations and ideologies and magical idols that make you crazy pretty much invalidate them.

As I said in my post above, I thought up a way the idol could've worked better, but I wouldn't be against having Meredith's own ideologies affect her thought process, and not idolmania.

Introducing Meredith earlier.  Villains only work when they are introduced early and your hatred for them are allowed to fester.  The same goes for Orsino.

Of course. This was one of DA2's biggest flaws. We can only get to know Meredith as a pro-Templar (which even then is dubious at best because I'm wondering if she even had a sister and the idol didn't just have her make it up ). It's a poorly done way to characterize her, as it happens too little, too late.


Orsino is even worse because we don't get to know him at all. Past life? Nothing. And then he goes Harvestino on us. IMO Orsino's death needs to be retconned with the reason being "Varric just embellished on that."

No Qunari Skirmish.  No Champion Subplot that resulted in a whole lot of nothing.  People don't generally want to see our characters stumble into a title and then summarily do nothing to prove they deserved it prospectively.  I would have added a Qunari companion that would have given the same exposition about Qunari.  It would not be a mage.

The Qunari should've tied in with the Mage-Templar conflict by having Meredith's own fanatic zealotry and hatred against mages working with how the Qunari control their mages. Have her meet with the Arishok regularly, checking up on things (as she is the power in Kirkwall) and remarking how she enjoys how they handle their mages.

The Qunari could've tied in with the Mage-Templar conflict by doing that, and the Champion role could still be given to Hawke.

Focusing on the Mage Templar war from Chapter 1.

Of course. Hawke should've been able to establish early on which side he was on, and become the leader of the Mage Underground or working alongside the Templars to crush the Mage Underground, either secretly or blatantly. If secretly, Anders stays with you as a companion as he wouldn't know. If blatantly, it causes him to leave until Act 3.

I personally would not have had Meredith as the last boss, but a Abomination rampaging Anders as the last boss.  Anders knowing how to create bombs is stupid, it's supposed to be a rare art known to a handful of people.  We got great stories of the power of Anders when he let Vengeance take over but we never saw it, and it would give a non deus ex machina last boss.  If you are pro mage/ don't care, you are stopping him from destroying the city.  If you are anti mage you are putting him down.  Either way, YOU would be doing something rather than being in the wake of the aftermath of Anders' decision.

I think Meredith was the perfect final boss. Also, remember that Anders spent time at Vigil's Keep where Dworkin the Mad worked with bombs. Anders probably picked up a few things from him.

I would have shown the growing Resolutionist movement.  I would have had a non mage mage sympathizer group.  I also would have shown conditions in the Circle.

I would have removed the stupid Harverster Orsino. and the stupid I helped Quentin kill your mother, ogedybogedyboo!  He's a first enchanter.  Just make him a powerful mage.

I would have tried to make the Templars a little more sympathetic so that this war was grey.

Dear God yes.

I would have made magic cause punishment from templars until you pay for a pass to use it much like in Baldur's Gate 2.  If you don't pay the Templars get mightier until you can't kill them.

Ehh.... I want the Templars to notice, but maybe have them chase you through the streets and if you get caught, you're thrown in the Circle.

Then, depending on who you're working for (Meredith or Orsino), they bail you out with the reasoning that you're either A) working for Meredith to crush rebel mages, and she's given you permission to be an apostate. For now, so long as you don't do anything that requires the Templars to take action against you. or Orsino comes and says you're trying to reason with the rebel mages and help them, and that sometimes the Templars have gone too far.


then every time you cast magic in front of a Templar (which really was only in the Gallows and the Docks for most of the game) they remark "I've got my eye on you mage...."


I don't know, just a thought.

[TJPags]

Sajuro wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

The lyrium idol should have been cut from the game completely.

I find myself also thinking Flemeth should have been cut, even though I really enjoyed her. She just offered nothing to the plot, at least in DA:O she set you on your path, saved you, and gave you Morrigan. Here she just saves you and then says some decent lines.

She gives you Merrill, provides some fun foreshadowing, and sets you on your path albiet indirectly.

We could have gotten Merrill in many other ways, we didn't need her to set us on our path - we could have, for instance, run into Isabela fleeing the Blight - and the foreshadowing means nothing in this game.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

telephasic wrote...

The other cameos:  Alistair is involved in a non-quest quest. Leliana's appearence was fine IMHO, but it was made canon, which broke immersion in campaigns where she died.  Zevren's was okay I thought, but it served no game purpose - I thought it should have been tied to Isabella's personal quest - why were they all back-loaded into Chapter 3 anyway?  

I thought Alistair's cameo served a purpose.

1) To show how Alistair is ruling the country.
2) To show that the choice of who's ruling has been recognized, which was very important.
3) Alistair is seeking allies because of the impending war with Orlais that seems imminent.


Alistair is a king, and as such he needs to do kingly things.

Alistair is not always a king.  He's a GW, or he's a drunk.  He sure didn't need to be in the game as a drunk, except as comic relief, which wasn't needed.  We didn't need him as a GW either.

And while I know most people here can't stand Anora, having Alistair show up as King, but hearing nothing at all about Anora as ruler is kind of a slap in the face for those who went that way.

[Sajuro]

TJPags wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

The lyrium idol should have been cut from the game completely.

I find myself also thinking Flemeth should have been cut, even though I really enjoyed her. She just offered nothing to the plot, at least in DA:O she set you on your path, saved you, and gave you Morrigan. Here she just saves you and then says some decent lines.

She gives you Merrill, provides some fun foreshadowing, and sets you on your path albiet indirectly.

We could have gotten Merrill in many other ways, we didn't need her to set us on our path - we could have, for instance, run into Isabela fleeing the Blight - and the foreshadowing means nothing in this game.

The only reason you were allowed to get into the clan's camp is because you had to do the delivery for Flemmeth, which is the reason that Merrill followed you up to the mountain and she might not have decided to go with just any random shem who wandered into the camp.
Isabella is in Lothering, while your Warden could hop up to Denerim and either bed her or cheat to get her to teach you the Duelist specialization and people would be screaming "PLOT HOLE!"
Flemmeth was essential in helping them get from Lothering to the port so they could go to Kirkwall, it also helps set her up as a manipulator because that is the second hero she has gotten started hinting at a larger goal of hers.
Also, if Hawke didn't meet Flemmeth and she shows up in DA3 people would scream "PLOT HOLE!" or "RETCON!" or very possibly "OUR CHOICES DON'T MATTER! BIOWARE HATES US ;A;" it set up a way that Flemmeth avoided death if the Warden killed her, and managed to be in two places at once if the Warden didn't.
And yes, the game has excellent examples of foreshadowing, just because you think that Dragon Age 2 has a poor story doesn't mean that you can simply dismiss the foreshadowing done in the game like they are some sentient warships waiting out in dark space, or something equally implausible

[TEWR]

Alistair is not always a king.  He's a GW, or he's a drunk.  He sure didn't need to be in the game as a drunk, except as comic relief, which wasn't needed.  We didn't need him as a GW either.

And while I know most people here can't stand Anora, having Alistair show up as King, but hearing nothing at all about Anora as ruler is kind of a slap in the face for those who went that way.

I know he's not always king. My point was that his appearance as king served a purpose for the world of Thedas. Just like his appearance as a Grey Warden served a purpose on the business the Wardens must attend to, which happens with Stroud if Alistair is exiled/made king.


It's to show how peoples' choices matter. As for exiled Alistair, he is just there for comic relief as you said


But I agree that Anora should've been mentioned more. Maybe have a trip to Denerim in Act 3 as the Champion of Kirkwall, where you try and seek allies just as Alistair seeks allies in Kirkwall. I dunno, again this is just a thought. All the good ideas I came up with today have pretty much vanished due to my absence on the forums

[Macropodmum]

Well I had been umming and arring about buying DA2 after hearing so many negative things about it, I guess I ended up buying it because I found out that Alistair and other companions would be in it. Now that might be a lame reason to buy a game to some but I was looking at the continuity of story, having bought and played it now I am glad I did.

And I agree with Flemeth appearing, she is, I believe, integral to the main plot even though many may not have gathered that from her appearance. Big changes are coming as Morrigan announced in WH, and I think Flemeth's appearance was to reiterate and to establish that something big is to come.

[Sajuro]

Macropodmum wrote...

Well I had been umming and arring about buying DA2 after hearing so many negative things about it, I guess I ended up buying it because I found out that Alistair and other companions would be in it. Now that might be a lame reason to buy a game to some but I was looking at the continuity of story, having bought and played it now I am glad I did.

And I agree with Flemeth appearing, she is, I believe, integral to the main plot even though many may not have gathered that from her appearance. Big changes are coming as Morrigan announced in WH, and I think Flemeth's appearance was to reiterate and to establish that something big is to come.

Winter is coming

[Macropodmum]

Sajuro wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

Well I had been umming and arring about buying DA2 after hearing so many negative things about it, I guess I ended up buying it because I found out that Alistair and other companions would be in it. Now that might be a lame reason to buy a game to some but I was looking at the continuity of story, having bought and played it now I am glad I did.

And I agree with Flemeth appearing, she is, I believe, integral to the main plot even though many may not have gathered that from her appearance. Big changes are coming as Morrigan announced in WH, and I think Flemeth's appearance was to reiterate and to establish that something big is to come.

Winter is coming

Tis already here in Australia

[Sajuro]

Macropodmum wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

Well I had been umming and arring about buying DA2 after hearing so many negative things about it, I guess I ended up buying it because I found out that Alistair and other companions would be in it. Now that might be a lame reason to buy a game to some but I was looking at the continuity of story, having bought and played it now I am glad I did.

And I agree with Flemeth appearing, she is, I believe, integral to the main plot even though many may not have gathered that from her appearance. Big changes are coming as Morrigan announced in WH, and I think Flemeth's appearance was to reiterate and to establish that something big is to come.

Winter is coming

Tis already here in Australia

aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!

[Bryy_Miller]

Someone said Drunk Alastair should have been cut? Traitorous talk.

[Lord Gremlin]

TJPags wrote...

Lose Flemeth - she meant nothing to the story.

Lose the Lyrium idol . . . it was a whole lot of nothing excep an excuse for people to hate.

Lose the Zevran cameo and the Alistair cameo . . . nothing but fanservice.

Lose Leliana - I didn't see where she was so important that some other, new character couldn't have worked fine.

Hm, without Flemeth and Alistair I wouldn't been able to force myself to finish the game.

But I do agree about introducing Meredith earlier and harvester Orisno being the most retarded thing in gaming industry since introduction of a mexican man with dead leg in Alpha Prime.
I just keep remembering it... I've played as a mage and sided with mages, Orsino's transformation made no sense at all. We were winning the uneven battle but he had to screw it all to hell for no reason, which obviously suggests that he went insane.
Look, keep number of insane characters to a minimum. Else it's just goofy.

Modifié par Lord Gremlin, 12 juillet 2011 - 11:59 .

[Teddie Sage]

Sebastian's role. He's pointless. All he adds is a few lines for Elthina's background, a boring side quest or two and somehow forces you to choose between him or Anders in the end. Yeah, he's pointless. You can't even romance him.

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 13 juillet 2011 - 12:17 .

[Sons of Horus]

Teddie Sage wrote...

Sebastian's role. He's pointless. All he adds is a few lines for Elthina's background, a boring side quest or two and somehow forces you to choose between him or Anders in the end. Yeah, he's pointless. You can't even romance him.

I think this may be a set up for an expansion / future DLC, Involving starkhaven and either helping Sebastian overthrow his cousin, overthrowing Sebastian due to him be cruel to mages or something else.

On Topic : I think we needed to add more to the game, from what I hear on youtube a lot of missing lines and scenes may have worked better in the game, for example the bone pit had some extra stuff as well as Varic had more to say. I hope we will get DLC or patch's to add them back into the story.

[TEWR]

One of the devs said his story isn't over. This was in the Sebastian thread in the companions subsection

[DRTJR]

I wouldn't put it past Bioware to make Sebastion a Religious tyrant that one must depose.

[Macropodmum]

Maybe I do need to get that one then

[Sajuro]

What I would want is the ability to leave your mansion after you beat the game and just get into random fights at night or complete quests you skipped over or hadn't downloaded before beating the game *cough Sebastian cough*

[Rifneno]

DRTJR wrote...

I wouldn't put it past Bioware to make Sebastion a Religious tyrant that one must depose.

We can only hope.

[TEWR]

Sebastian doesn't have enough balls to become a tyrant.


Which is funny because tyrants are cowards imo. So he doesn't have enough balls to be a coward.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juillet 2011 - 05:12 .

[Icy Magebane]

All That Remains

[Chiramu]

DA2's story is so very limiting that if they cut anything from it, there might not be much of it left .

If anything, they should add more things to the story. Cause DA2 needs some beefing up.

The only quests that I can think of being really useless(useless, as in useless run around quests unrelated to the main story) are a few from Origins. But then Origins, had a substantial story, and could afford to lose the most pointless quests it has. DA2 doesn't have that luxury though.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sebastian doesn't have enough balls to become a tyrant.


Which is funny because tyrants are cowards imo. So he doesn't have enough balls to be a coward.

Sweet, now we have a title for Sebastian's biography.  "Not Enough Balls to be a Coward."

[Chiramu]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sebastian doesn't have enough balls to become a tyrant.


Which is funny because tyrants are cowards imo. So he doesn't have enough balls to be a coward.

Sweet, now we have a title for Sebastian's biography.  "Not Enough Balls to be a Coward."

You guys seem to be calling Macbeth a coward! It's paranoia not cowardice. 

[Foolsfolly]

DRTJR wrote...

I wouldn't put it past Bioware to make Sebastion a Religious tyrant that one must depose.

Who is then possessed by a demon via his Andraste belt buckle is made from White Lyrium, the latest and most powerful of all plot devices.

Actually, since so many people seem to dislike Seb I'd bet they make him into someone great and powerful and unkillable. (I actually like Seb enough. He's not my favorite character but I don't hate him either. He's just weird to have. I honestly believe he should reclaim his throne and not waste his life in the Chantry. To have him agree I have to treat him badly and keep him out of my party whenever I do something nice. Which means I only really get to interact with him when he's ****y at my behavior.)

Varric and Merrill'll get the Anders treatment next time.