116 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

Foolsfolly wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

I wouldn't put it past Bioware to make Sebastion a Religious tyrant that one must depose.

-snipped-
Varric and Merrill'll get the Anders treatment next time.

Though Merrill will still be adorable
Merrill: It's unjust what the Shems do to Elves Hawke, help me kill someone
Hawke: awww, okay, but only because you used the 'you kicked my puppy' voice

[Sylvianus]

Areksu wrote...

Vicious wrote...

My main problem with the Lyrium Idol was that you recieved absolutely no information about it, it's creators or what the hell it was made of. [red lyrium of ubergodly power is the best i've heard]

This was made worse when it was destroyed, completely absolving Bioware from ever having to use it again or refer back to it.

Which turns it from possible cool story piece to a MacGuffin and Deus Ex Machina rolled into one.

And like I said, worst part is it will probably never be referred back to again. Like Morrigan's child. Seemed like a HUGE DEAL at the end of DA:O, to many people the most memorable part of the game was their decision, only to be told by Morri in Witch Hunt that she didn't need it anyway.

Crap storytelling at it's best.

Actually, the worst thing about the Lyrium Idol was the character who got her hands on it patronizes mages for using blood magic, is a templar, and is surrounded by people who should be able to tell her that the lyrium has evil magic in it. There is no reason given for why Meredith would even want such an item. Sure, she is a complete ****, but prior to Act 3 she would not tolerate a single instance of blood magic, let alone an evil idol forged with blood magic. Either we are missing some very important information here or this idol was just forced onto a character whose prime motives would preclude her from ever using it. 

Indeed. I always asked myself the question. Why Meredith ? Someone as prudent as Meredith about magic and especially blood magic ? She's a powerful templar.  Couldn't really feel anything? Or then, the templars really suck.

[Plaintiff]

Sylvianus wrote...

Areksu wrote...

Vicious wrote...

My main problem with the Lyrium Idol was that you recieved absolutely no information about it, it's creators or what the hell it was made of. [red lyrium of ubergodly power is the best i've heard]

This was made worse when it was destroyed, completely absolving Bioware from ever having to use it again or refer back to it.

Which turns it from possible cool story piece to a MacGuffin and Deus Ex Machina rolled into one.

And like I said, worst part is it will probably never be referred back to again. Like Morrigan's child. Seemed like a HUGE DEAL at the end of DA:O, to many people the most memorable part of the game was their decision, only to be told by Morri in Witch Hunt that she didn't need it anyway.

Crap storytelling at it's best.

Actually, the worst thing about the Lyrium Idol was the character who got her hands on it patronizes mages for using blood magic, is a templar, and is surrounded by people who should be able to tell her that the lyrium has evil magic in it. There is no reason given for why Meredith would even want such an item. Sure, she is a complete ****, but prior to Act 3 she would not tolerate a single instance of blood magic, let alone an evil idol forged with blood magic. Either we are missing some very important information here or this idol was just forced onto a character whose prime motives would preclude her from ever using it. 

Indeed. I always asked myself the question. Why Meredith ? Someone as prudent as Meredith about magic and especially blood magic ? She's a powerful templar.  Couldn't really feel anything? Or then, the templars really suck.

Prudent? More like paranoid and hypocritical. Meredith is the Loghain of DA2. She sees evil everywhere except in herself. Nothing she does could ever be wrong and the lyrium idol preys on that weakness.

The woman has shown she has little to no qualms about violating or ignoring chantry law if it served her purpose  (or that of her subordinates) to do so. Even if she was concious of the lyrium idol"s corrupting influence, it seems entirely in-keeping wit her character that she would hold onto it if she thought it could help her in her fight against BLOOD MAGES! BLOOD MAGES EVERYWHERE!!!

[Addai]

First of all, thank you so much for not writing "should of."

Secondly, I'm horrified you think Flemeth should have been cut. She had more style than all of Kirkwall.

I can't really comment on what should have been cut, because the game is so stunted as it is. I guess I can agree that the lyrium turning people insane wasn't very interesting. I would point out, however, that I don't think Bartrand was under its influence when he shut Hawke and Varric in the Deep Roads. I got the impression that was his plan all along.

[Sylvianus]

Plaintiff wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Areksu wrote...

Vicious wrote...

My main problem with the Lyrium Idol was that you recieved absolutely no information about it, it's creators or what the hell it was made of. [red lyrium of ubergodly power is the best i've heard]

This was made worse when it was destroyed, completely absolving Bioware from ever having to use it again or refer back to it.

Which turns it from possible cool story piece to a MacGuffin and Deus Ex Machina rolled into one.

And like I said, worst part is it will probably never be referred back to again. Like Morrigan's child. Seemed like a HUGE DEAL at the end of DA:O, to many people the most memorable part of the game was their decision, only to be told by Morri in Witch Hunt that she didn't need it anyway.

Crap storytelling at it's best.

Actually, the worst thing about the Lyrium Idol was the character who got her hands on it patronizes mages for using blood magic, is a templar, and is surrounded by people who should be able to tell her that the lyrium has evil magic in it. There is no reason given for why Meredith would even want such an item. Sure, she is a complete ****, but prior to Act 3 she would not tolerate a single instance of blood magic, let alone an evil idol forged with blood magic. Either we are missing some very important information here or this idol was just forced onto a character whose prime motives would preclude her from ever using it. 

Indeed. I always asked myself the question. Why Meredith ? Someone as prudent as Meredith about magic and especially blood magic ? She's a powerful templar.  Couldn't really feel anything? Or then, the templars really suck.

Prudent? More like paranoid and hypocritical. Meredith is the Loghain of DA2. She sees evil everywhere except in herself. Nothing she does could ever be wrong and the lyrium idol preys on that weakness.

The woman has shown she has little to no qualms about violating or ignoring chantry law if it served her purpose  (or that of her subordinates) to do so. Even if she was concious of the lyrium idol"s corrupting influence, it seems entirely in-keeping wit her character that she would hold onto it if she thought it could help her in her fight against BLOOD MAGES! BLOOD MAGES EVERYWHERE!!!

Uhm, not false. I agree with what you said.

That said I never understood what the idol did. Does it pushing the vice of a human being ?

For example. Greed for the brother of Varric.

and paranoia for Meredith ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 juillet 2011 - 04:53 .

[Plaintiff]

Sylvianus wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Areksu wrote...

Vicious wrote...

My main problem with the Lyrium Idol was that you recieved absolutely no information about it, it's creators or what the hell it was made of. [red lyrium of ubergodly power is the best i've heard]

This was made worse when it was destroyed, completely absolving Bioware from ever having to use it again or refer back to it.

Which turns it from possible cool story piece to a MacGuffin and Deus Ex Machina rolled into one.

And like I said, worst part is it will probably never be referred back to again. Like Morrigan's child. Seemed like a HUGE DEAL at the end of DA:O, to many people the most memorable part of the game was their decision, only to be told by Morri in Witch Hunt that she didn't need it anyway.

Crap storytelling at it's best.

Actually, the worst thing about the Lyrium Idol was the character who got her hands on it patronizes mages for using blood magic, is a templar, and is surrounded by people who should be able to tell her that the lyrium has evil magic in it. There is no reason given for why Meredith would even want such an item. Sure, she is a complete ****, but prior to Act 3 she would not tolerate a single instance of blood magic, let alone an evil idol forged with blood magic. Either we are missing some very important information here or this idol was just forced onto a character whose prime motives would preclude her from ever using it. 

Indeed. I always asked myself the question. Why Meredith ? Someone as prudent as Meredith about magic and especially blood magic ? She's a powerful templar.  Couldn't really feel anything? Or then, the templars really suck.

Prudent? More like paranoid and hypocritical. Meredith is the Loghain of DA2. She sees evil everywhere except in herself. Nothing she does could ever be wrong and the lyrium idol preys on that weakness.

The woman has shown she has little to no qualms about violating or ignoring chantry law if it served her purpose  (or that of her subordinates) to do so. Even if she was concious of the lyrium idol"s corrupting influence, it seems entirely in-keeping wit her character that she would hold onto it if she thought it could help her in her fight against BLOOD MAGES! BLOOD MAGES EVERYWHERE!!!

Uhm, not false. I agree with what you said.

That said I never understood what the idol did. Does it pushing the vice of a human being ?

For example. Greed for the brother of Varric.

and paranoia for Meredith ?

I'm not entirely sure, I think it's intended to remain a mystery, at least for now. I imagine that the idol can probably do lots of things. I personally theorize that it is somehow sentient, or is a channel through which some sentient being controls others. But I have no idea what its ultimate purpose is.

I think the idol is capable of exploiting character weaknesses, but I don't think that's its primary purpose. Given its mind control properties, I theorize that the idol is linked to or imbued with powerful blood magic (remember Templars actually don't have any defenses against blood magic). I don't think the exploitation of personal weaknesses is an automatic process, I think it makes the bearer susceptible to suggestion in the same way that blood magic does, and that from there, it is intelligent enough to figure out what the bearer wants to hear (remember the idol "speaks" to Bartrand and Meredith). It doesn't just exaggerate negative traits, it appeals to their specific desires and issues specific commands. It's definitely smarter than your average lump of magic rock.

The weaknesses it exploits in Meredith are paranoia, religious zeal and arrogance. Remember that she thinks her power comes from the Maker; she speaks to the Maker throughout the final battle, asking for more power, which she is granted. She is too arrogant to perceive her own weaknesses; she thinks of herself as too strong and too pious to ever fall prey to the influence of blood magic, while everyone else around her is too weak to withstand it. So by her warped logic, if she's hearing voices, it could only ever be the Maker himself, speaking directly to her because she's proved herself worthy through her steadfast devotion to him or some such nonsense. The idol (or its master) probably even claims to be the Maker in order to take advantage of her.

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

I wouldn't put it past Bioware to make Sebastion a Religious tyrant that one must depose.

Who is then possessed by a demon via his Andraste belt buckle is made from White Lyrium, the latest and most powerful of all plot devices.

Actually, since so many people seem to dislike Seb I'd bet they make him into someone great and powerful and unkillable. (I actually like Seb enough. He's not my favorite character but I don't hate him either. He's just weird to have. I honestly believe he should reclaim his throne and not waste his life in the Chantry. To have him agree I have to treat him badly and keep him out of my party whenever I do something nice. Which means I only really get to interact with him when he's ****y at my behavior.)

Varric and Merrill'll get the Anders treatment next time.

Hah white lyrium.


Hey Foolsfolly, you wouldn't happen to remember which thread I thought up a way the lyrium idol could've been handled better, would you?


I think you were the poster I was talking to about that, and I've been searching these forums furiously trying to figure out which thread it was.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 juillet 2011 - 03:16 .

[maxernst]

I would rather have given Flemeth more relevance than cut her. As to the lyrium idol, I thought having Meredith driven mad by an idol was a lousy plot device, and it really annoyed me that Hawke isn't allowed to make any effort to try and find out what happened to it after Bartrand's death. On the other hand, it really is the only major connection between Act 1 and the rest of the game..

[TEWR]

I found my idea for Meredith and the idol:

Hmmm.... well I think if we had met her around maybe Act 1 (maybe after the Tarohne quest) and gotten to converse with her somewhat in Act 1 and a lot in Act 2, we could've found out more about her past.

Then, around Act 3, she comes up to challenge Orsino's rousing of the nobility, but don't show the sword on her back.

Then around the climax of Act 3, she says that her sword was just recently completed, and you leave it unclear whether the Annulment was a result of the idol, or her past.

Well, to add a little bit to my post: First, add maybe 3 or 4 more quests for Act 3. Then, establish that these quests (and any side quests you do in between them) all take place over a certain amount of time. Say 3 months at most.

Then, you can talk to Meredith even as a pro-mage Hawke to find out more about her, and around Quest 4 (the first additional main quest), you see the sword on her back.

Of course, I'd like for Meredith to show us some reasoned arguments for her stance on mages during Act 1, then in Act 2 her arguments start to become a little bit faulty, and by Act 3 she's totally lost it.


Also, I'm changing my stance on the idol being a sword. Something else would've worked. Maybe an amulet or a belt. Or have it enchanted into the armor?

[Sajuro]

@Writer, I like the way you are thinking with Meredith, but maybe have her telling the public the danger of mages and why they have to keep them in the circle in Act 1, since Hawke has no clout to talk with Meredith. Act 2, she could act slightly more irrational when dealing with Orsino, like it was the fault of mages that the Qunari would attack or that the Qunari are on to something with their treatment of mages.
I would accept that the idol grew over her original sword, since that shard in the mansion was rather large.

[Marduksdragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I found my idea for Meredith and the idol:

Hmmm.... well I think if we had met her around maybe Act 1 (maybe after the Tarohne quest) and gotten to converse with her somewhat in Act 1 and a lot in Act 2, we could've found out more about her past.

Then, around Act 3, she comes up to challenge Orsino's rousing of the nobility, but don't show the sword on her back.

Then around the climax of Act 3, she says that her sword was just recently completed, and you leave it unclear whether the Annulment was a result of the idol, or her past.

It's lyrium. Have her grind it up and injest it because Elthina is restricting her lyrium over her behavior.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:37 .

[DRTJR]

That would make a metric ton of sence

[TEWR]

Sajuro wrote...

@Writer, I like the way you are thinking with Meredith, but maybe have her telling the public the danger of mages and why they have to keep them in the circle in Act 1, since Hawke has no clout to talk with Meredith. Act 2, she could act slightly more irrational when dealing with Orsino, like it was the fault of mages that the Qunari would attack or that the Qunari are on to something with their treatment of mages.
I would accept that the idol grew over her original sword, since that shard in the mansion was rather large.

I would think after the Tarohne quest Hawke would've earned some points with the KC, and she would've wanted to meet him.

It's lyrium. Have her grind it up and injest it because Elthina is restricting her lyrium over her behavior.

That would make sense for Meredith, but make Elthina seem even more incompetent because that was all she did to Meredith. So I approve!

[Marduksdragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

@Writer, I like the way you are thinking with Meredith, but maybe have her telling the public the danger of mages and why they have to keep them in the circle in Act 1, since Hawke has no clout to talk with Meredith. Act 2, she could act slightly more irrational when dealing with Orsino, like it was the fault of mages that the Qunari would attack or that the Qunari are on to something with their treatment of mages.
I would accept that the idol grew over her original sword, since that shard in the mansion was rather large.

I would think after the Tarohne quest Hawke would've earned some points with the KC, and she would've wanted to meet him.

It's lyrium. Have her grind it up and injest it because Elthina is restricting her lyrium over her behavior.

That would make sense for Meredith, but make Elthina seem even more incompetent because that was all she did to Meredith. So I approve!

This pleases me!

Elthina... I still don't know what's going on with her. I mean I understand about her fears over the Divine and the Exalted March, that is a terrible scary kinda thing, but she has to be one of the least empathetic people in Thedas if her reaction to Meredith murdering her way through the Gallows (mage and Templar--- especially the Templars, because those men technically all belong to Elthina) is to just sit on her hands. At least with the lyrium restriction she would have taken some kind of action to curb Meredith's rampage.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I found my idea for Meredith and the idol:

Hmmm.... well I think if we had met her around maybe Act 1 (maybe after the Tarohne quest) and gotten to converse with her somewhat in Act 1 and a lot in Act 2, we could've found out more about her past.

Then, around Act 3, she comes up to challenge Orsino's rousing of the nobility, but don't show the sword on her back.

Then around the climax of Act 3, she says that her sword was just recently completed, and you leave it unclear whether the Annulment was a result of the idol, or her past.

Well, to add a little bit to my post: First, add maybe 3 or 4 more quests for Act 3. Then, establish that these quests (and any side quests you do in between them) all take place over a certain amount of time. Say 3 months at most.

Then, you can talk to Meredith even as a pro-mage Hawke to find out more about her, and around Quest 4 (the first additional main quest), you see the sword on her back.

Of course, I'd like for Meredith to show us some reasoned arguments for her stance on mages during Act 1, then in Act 2 her arguments start to become a little bit faulty, and by Act 3 she's totally lost it.


Also, I'm changing my stance on the idol being a sword. Something else would've worked. Maybe an amulet or a belt. Or have it enchanted into the armor?

Isn't the situation already cloudy enough? What you are suggesting would make Meredith the clear villain, instead of actually having some supporters (amongst the players). You are suggesting to let the lyrium idol show a clear corruption of Meredith, which would make it hard to make any sort of rational argument for supporting Meredith's annulment.
As it is now, we aren't sure wether or not the idol had any kind of influence on her before the last quest, and even then if it had, we are unsure of how much of an influence it had. This makes for a much more cloudy situation, which serves to make the whole situation more grey.

[TEWR]

Personally I see Elthina as deciding that Meredith had gone too far and couldn't be stopped, and the only way for Meredith to be stopped was if she (Elthina) was gone. I see her as knowing Anders was going to kill her and she gladly gave up her life for the mages.


That's the only way I can even remotely like her as a character. Which makes Sebastian's reaction even funnier.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Isn't the situation already cloudy enough? What you are suggesting would make Meredith the clear villain, instead of actually having some supporters (amongst the players). You are suggesting to let the lyrium idol show a clear corruption of Meredith, which would make it hard to make any sort of rational argument for supporting Meredith's annulment.
As it is now, we aren't sure wether or not the idol had any kind of influence on her before the last quest, and even then if it had, we are unsure of how much of an influence it had. This makes for a much more cloudy situation, which serves to make the whole situation more grey.

Was there ever a rational argument for supporting Meredith? The situation isn't grey. It's black and white.


Personally, Meredith's own paranoia and zealotry would've worked better imo. This is just if the idol had to be used with Meredith. I'd definitely keep it in Act 1 and Act 2 though with Bartrand, maybe even having Bartrand still having it in his mansion. Of course, that would mean the entire plot Bioware was aiming for with DA2 would need to be rewritten. And it does. It needs to be rewritten so badly it's not even funny.

[Macropodmum]

I would think lyrium restriction woul make Meredith more insane on its own, withdrawal and all that...

[Marduksdragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Personally I see Elthina as deciding that Meredith had gone too far and couldn't be stopped, and the only way for Meredith to be stopped was if she (Elthina) was gone. I see her as knowing Anders was going to kill her and she gladly gave up her life for the mages.


That's the only way I can even remotely like her as a character. Which makes Sebastian's reaction even funnier.

Sebastian lives in fantasy land. He's built this little insulated world with his faith that reality rarely intrudes on because it pleased everyone of importance to his life. He couldn't win their attention by acting out, so he mirrored everything they wanted him to be and sought it that way. It's one of the reasons I rival him.

After listening to Elthina scold him I don't think he really understood her at all, or the situations she was dealing with (he seemed utterly clueless to her fears over the scrutiny of the Divine)-- so he was less an actual priest and more an overgrown child occupying that title. His reaction at the Chantry exploding is a child's reaction to the loss of a parent-- not a man watching the death of his mentor. Since Elthina raised him since he was 12-13, I can see why.

[TEWR]

Macropodmum wrote...

I would think lyrium restriction woul make Meredith more insane on its own, withdrawal and all that...

That came to my mind about 2 minutes ago. But perhaps due to the concentrated nature of the red lyrium it makes her increased insanity due to the lyrium withdrawal even worse?

[Marduksdragon]

Macropodmum wrote...

I would think lyrium restriction woul make Meredith more insane on its own, withdrawal and all that...

Yup, but I don't want to toss away the idol out of hand- just make it more relevant. Also-- the transformation into the statue at the end could remain the same.

Edit: Also, the increased crazy could be accounted for by Elthina that way. Meredith IS acting like she's on restriction, but she's still not willing to obey. It would be cause for alarm.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 15 juillet 2011 - 02:33 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Isn't the situation already cloudy enough? What you are suggesting would make Meredith the clear villain, instead of actually having some supporters (amongst the players). You are suggesting to let the lyrium idol show a clear corruption of Meredith, which would make it hard to make any sort of rational argument for supporting Meredith's annulment.
As it is now, we aren't sure wether or not the idol had any kind of influence on her before the last quest, and even then if it had, we are unsure of how much of an influence it had. This makes for a much more cloudy situation, which serves to make the whole situation more grey.

Was there ever a rational argument for supporting Meredith? The situation isn't grey. It's black and white.


Personally, Meredith's own paranoia and zealotry would've worked better imo. This is just if the idol had to be used with Meredith. I'd definitely keep it in Act 1 and Act 2 though with Bartrand, maybe even having Bartrand still having it in his mansion. Of course, that would mean the entire plot Bioware was aiming for with DA2 would need to be rewritten. And it does. It needs to be rewritten so badly it's not even funny.

Havn't you taken part in enough discussion about the annulment, to know that a lot of us players, actually feel that the annulment of Kirkwall's circle was the best choice? Perhaps Meredith herself doesn't have much support, but her annulment does.

[Macropodmum]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

I would think lyrium restriction woul make Meredith more insane on its own, withdrawal and all that...

That came to my mind about 2 minutes ago. But perhaps due to the concentrated nature of the red lyrium it makes her increased insanity due to the lyrium withdrawal even worse?

Quite possibly, I would just think though that if she was suffering from lyrium withdrawal we may have seen her acting more like a junkie than someone who has a superiority complex prior to getting the idol.

[Marduksdragon]

Macropodmum wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

I would think lyrium restriction woul make Meredith more insane on its own, withdrawal and all that...

That came to my mind about 2 minutes ago. But perhaps due to the concentrated nature of the red lyrium it makes her increased insanity due to the lyrium withdrawal even worse?

Quite possibly, I would just think though that if she was suffering from lyrium withdrawal we may have seen her acting more like a junkie than someone who has a superiority complex prior to getting the idol.

We don't actually see her before she gets the idol. She might have. We only know she's been killing and beating people already from Thrask and the others if you make a visit to the Gallows and chat around once everything is finished, right before you enter the Deep Roads. The Initiates already think she's strange.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Isn't the situation already cloudy enough? What you are suggesting would make Meredith the clear villain, instead of actually having some supporters (amongst the players). You are suggesting to let the lyrium idol show a clear corruption of Meredith, which would make it hard to make any sort of rational argument for supporting Meredith's annulment.
As it is now, we aren't sure wether or not the idol had any kind of influence on her before the last quest, and even then if it had, we are unsure of how much of an influence it had. This makes for a much more cloudy situation, which serves to make the whole situation more grey.

Was there ever a rational argument for supporting Meredith? The situation isn't grey. It's black and white.


Personally, Meredith's own paranoia and zealotry would've worked better imo. This is just if the idol had to be used with Meredith. I'd definitely keep it in Act 1 and Act 2 though with Bartrand, maybe even having Bartrand still having it in his mansion. Of course, that would mean the entire plot Bioware was aiming for with DA2 would need to be rewritten. And it does. It needs to be rewritten so badly it's not even funny.

Havn't you taken part in enough discussion about the annulment, to know that a lot of us players, actually feel that the annulment of Kirkwall's circle was the best choice? Perhaps Meredith herself doesn't have much support, but her annulment does.

I have, but I still don't see it as the best option. Even if a Hawke becomes Viscount and truly thinks he can make Kirkwall better, there are a few things standing in the way of that:

1) The Templars are the real power in Kirkwall as they choose who becomes Viscount, and I doubt that Hawke could be the real power. People can certainly roleplay that option, but in-game sadly there isn't anything to support Hawke being an influential and powerful person with various connections
2) Kirkwall's Circle's story of that Annulment. It'll be kinda hard for them to explain in a lie why there's a glowing red lyrium Meredith in the courtyard of the Gallows. Not only that, but some mages had to have escaped for word of the slaughter to have spread, meaning the truth inevitably will reach their ears. This would cause even more unrest among the mages, as they would be in fear of an Annulment being called even if they themselves were innocent
3) Kirkwall's Circle wasn't beyond saving

I had a fourth reason, but I forgot what it was


and this isn't looking at it from a metagaming perspective. It's looking at it from a "Who is Hawke in the future" and "Kirkwall in the future" perspective.