583 réponses à ce sujet

[txgoldrush]

JaegerBane wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I don't know what you're arguing against, but it isn't me. What I said was that the Warden was not a lynchpin of anything. The darkspawn DLC shows us exactly the scenario that people argue the absence of Hawke would cause (everything goes on about the same) and the defence being used is the exact same one people use to defend Hawke (no one could defeat x beside Hawke!). 

In Exile, I won't quote you line for line to avoid the Walls of Text, so I'll sum up my reponse:

You'll have to forgive me but from what you've just written there, it sounds like you're making a self-contradictory point. On the one hand you claim that the Warden is not important to the plot, and that it would have gone on without him.... and on the other hand, concede that things worked out differently without him there and therefore the plot ends in a very different fashion.

The whole situation with Grey Warden treaties and the various problems hitting the different groups existed independantly of the Warden's success at the Joining, so I don't really understand why you think it such a significant issue that Alistair ended up carrying out the same course of action... i mean, to put it bluntly, how else would you have expected him to go about replacing the king's army? Of course there's going to be some similarities to how Alistair would have went about his task, but whatever he did, he didn't do it as well. You're making a blind assumption that his only reason for failure was that he choked at the final hurdle... in a story where the improvement of the character, from zero to hero, is a major aspect of it. You have no idea why he failed. Given how the story works, however, it's likely that he wasn't as experienced or developed as the Warden was at the end - which is a question of the character's capability that has developed over the course of the story, not simple chance. As you said yourself, the armies themselves didn't actually make that much of a difference.

The main issue I have with what you're saying seems to centre on the Archdemon being a binary value that was 1 for the Warden and 0 for Alistair. This is nothing like the situation for Hawke, because, unlike the Warden, No matter what experiences he went through, the game world is left in disarray and both sides are in ruins. His experience and his capability did not matter one jot to the conclusion of the plot, whereas the same for the Warden was the difference between the end of Ferelden and it's survival. No matter how many assumptions you make, this final point can't be simply ignored. And that is precisely why people were dissatisfied with DA2's conclusion in comparison to DA:O's.

This is all I have to say on the matter to be honest, as I said, you argument is coming across that you're arguing that black is white but also black, and it's getting a little frustrating to comprehend.

no, fans just simply miss the entire point of DAII....

...that the world is bigger than just one man or woman.

It breaks WRPG cliche and norms, where you are commonly a god hero in which the world bows down to your decisions.

And just because Hawke's choices don't mean much in the grand scope of things, they surely mean alot to the characters around him, from his sibling, to his companions, to other NPCs.

[xkg]

^
And you miss the entire point of DRAGON AGE franchise - it is about THEDAS not about any single person. At least that how it was before DA2.

[OdanUrr]

I never bother with Infinities' type of stories. They're not canon in any way, just a version of what could have happened as opposed to what did happen.

[mordarwarlock]

no, fans just simply miss the entire point of DAII....

no, fanboys just are too much thick headed to see the game is mediocre at best

...that the world is bigger than just one man or woman.

yeah, something that never happened in any RPG before, hypocrite much?

It breaks WRPG cliche and norms, where you are commonly a god hero in which the world bows down to your decisions.

haven't played much RPG's have you?, heck, even freaking oblivion (which is awful compared to its predecessors, much like DA 2 is) puts you on the role of not being a god hero

And just because Hawke's choices don't mean much in the grand scope of things, they surely mean alot to the characters around him, from his sibling, to his companions, to other NPCs.

keep believeing that indeed, because that never happened in any RPG before, DA 2 it's just something so unique and so out of the norm that deserves the award for best rpg ever to exist in story


not



troll harder man, really, at least it would be more funny to read

[txgoldrush]

mordarwarlock wrote...

Don't get me started on The Witcher 2's ending now.........its even more disappointing than DAII's.

a) show how much you appreciate games.....what  am I talking, you love DA 2, of course you don't know what are you talking about

TW 2 ending might be short but at least it varies completely depending on your choices throughout the whole game, period

You can't stop Anders, Orsino, and Merdith like you can't stop the generic orc army from attacking generic capital city in DAO. Its part of the plot. The extremists are the antagonists of DAII just like the buttspawn of DAO...they are going to antagonize and the protagonist has to react to it.

uumm no, in DAO you could choose to kill loghain or let him join you, exhile alistair, make him a king, make  loghains daughter queen, heck the landsmeet itself proves that at least you have choices in the matter even if in the end you had to kill the arch demon

c) stop with the nonsense about the extremist being the same as darkspawn, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever, Anders was your companion from beggining to end, and you couldn't do a single thing to stop his nonsense, you don't care about orsino or meredith until the beggining chapter 3 where you think you could actually affect who you choose and how to resolve the matter....but that is moot when they both force you to kill them and the end it's exactly the same, Anders blow half the city and everything goes haywire

heck, if hawke wasn't there everything could've transpired exactly the same, your choices didn't matter whatsoever

And how do I kill both sides....last time i checked Cullen was still alive and reacted differently whether I sided witht he Templars or the mages.

d) last I checked, you kill meredith even tho you sided with here, last I checked orsino becomes a blood mage even tho the stupid retard keeps spewing how not all mages are bad, and...you kill her, they are the main protagonists of Chapter 3, stop citing NPC's that didn't have anything to do with the start of the conflict

oh and riddle me this, I guess you have a choice to save thrask....nope, you don't

And like I said earlier, the ending to the inside of the frame changes with Hawke's decision even though the outside of the frame narrative does not.

e) yeah, such a grand ending to the inside of the frame a small text saying "you become a paragon, you become a ruthless ******", even tho the ending and everything that transpired to it its exactly the same, such a grand finale sir, DA 2 is the best RPG for centuries to come

And if you are going whine about DAII's ending, do I need to pull up Fallout 2's main ending, Planescape Torment's, or Baldur's Gate II's ending to show how much hypocrites old school RPG elitists are?

f) like everyone has been saying but you can't get thru your thick fanboy ignorant skull of yours, at least in those games you had choices, consequences that mattered, what do you have in DA II?, artificial choices with no consequences and an ending that transpires exactly the same no matter what you choose in the end, and even if the ending is static like most bioware WRPG's, the road to it happens exactly the same and nothing changes based on your choices

g) seriously calling old school RPG elitist hypocrites when you are the fanboy trolling and defending something that has already been proven in your face that can't be defended?, cry me a river would you?

a) Nevermind the fact that TW2's ending was commonly criticized for being abrupt and disappointing. I am not alone. I do think TW2 is better than DAII (and DAO), but a flaw is a flaw.

And in DAII, you can execute Anders, spare him, side with the templars or mages, your point? The Chantry bombing sequence in DAII's "Landsmeet".

c) And the darkspawn burn Denerim. The extremists are the anatgonists like the Darkspawn are to DAO. You can't do anything from keeping the spawn from attacking Denerim no matter how hard you try. You are railroaded into the bait. Ever thought that companions can be villains as well? Sometimes you can't change someone or stop something from happening. I know it breaks WRPG norm in which you are the god in everything by games end, but the choice with Anders is how to deal with him after he does his thing.

d) use your brain.....a) Cullen and his men bow down to you and you become Viscount or He and his men let you go and you become an outcast. And last time I checked the main protagonist is Hawke. Even with Meridith and Orsino killed in both sides of it THE ENDING IN HAWKES STORY IS DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!

e) Never said that DAII has a grand finale, it could have been much better. However, it fit with the themes of the game.

f) So Hawke becoming a champion for one side doesn't matter? So the fate of the sibling doesn't matter? So his love interest doesn't matter?

Get off your DAII hatedom high horse and use your thick skull. This game does have meaningful choice and consquence. Bethany's involvemnt as a Circle mage for instance, can alter the entire tone of the endgame.

"and even if the ending is static like most bioware WRPG's, the road to it happens exactly the same and nothing changes based on your choices"

Just like every other Bioware RPG. Tell me that KOTOR is different, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, even DAO....Its all the same, but instead of the end choice being between goody goody or meanie, its mage or templar.

g) and how is DAII proven it can't be defended....lol....simple DAII hater nothing more.

[OdanUrr]

txgoldrush wrote...

no, fans just simply miss the entire point of DAII....

...that the world is bigger than just one man or woman.

It breaks WRPG cliche and norms, where you are commonly a god hero in which the world bows down to your decisions.

And just because Hawke's choices don't mean much in the grand scope of things, they surely mean alot to the characters around him, from his sibling, to his companions, to other NPCs.

That's an opinion based on hindsight, realising what the game's about after you've played it several times to let it sink in. The fact is DA2 wasn't marketed that way, we might even go as far as saying the marketing campaign was (deliberately) misleading. Therefore, a lot of fans bought the game based on their experience with DAO, their friends' experience with DAO, and DA2's marketing campaign. A lot of hype grew around the image of the "Champion of Kirkwall" and, indeed, "Destiny" shows us Hawke in the traditional hero role, defeating the "evil" enemy and thus saving the day. And while this is an element present in the game, Hawke is by no means a hero in the traditional sense.

Hawke's choices don't have the impact many of us, myself included, expected from a story that spans ten or so years. You argue they mean a lot to the characters around him but the same can be argued about almost any RPG out there. It's not something that particularly distinguishes DA2 from the rest.

In hindsight, I appreciate what they tried to do with DA2, if indeed that is what they tried to do: to depict the struggle of a man/woman trying to find his/her place in the world. In doing so, Hawke does things that may be considered heroic but they don't turn the character into an outright hero. But the journey feels patchy, jagged, lacking. It's a journey of discovery that isn't very challenging.

EDIT: Please, try to keep this discussion as much spoiler-free as is humanly possible.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 16 juillet 2011 - 06:13 .

[txgoldrush]

mordarwarlock wrote...

no, fans just simply miss the entire point of DAII....

a) no, fanboys just are too much thick headed to see the game is mediocre at best

...that the world is bigger than just one man or woman.

yeah, something that never happened in any RPG before, hypocrite much?

It breaks WRPG cliche and norms, where you are commonly a god hero in which the world bows down to your decisions.

c) haven't played much RPG's have you?, heck, even freaking oblivion (which is awful compared to its predecessors, much like DA 2 is) puts you on the role of not being a god hero

And just because Hawke's choices don't mean much in the grand scope of things, they surely mean alot to the characters around him, from his sibling, to his companions, to other NPCs.

d) keep believeing that indeed, because that never happened in any RPG before, DA 2 it's just something so unique and so out of the norm that deserves the award for best rpg ever to exist in story


not



troll harder man, really, at least it would be more funny to read

a) and hateboys are too thick headed to see that DAII does many things right.

and in most WRPGs, the player is bigger than the world...even in Ultima. Fallout is another huge example.

c) and then there is the shivering isles....

d) and then keep belittleing me for things I have not said...great argument.

[Addai]

txgoldrush wrote...

no, fans just simply miss the entire point of DAII....

...that the world is bigger than just one man or woman.

It breaks WRPG cliche and norms, where you are commonly a god hero in which the world bows down to your decisions.

And just because Hawke's choices don't mean much in the grand scope of things, they surely mean alot to the characters around him, from his sibling, to his companions, to other NPCs.

If people wanted to play a JRPG, that's probably what they'd be playing.

I think what is most frustrating are the numerous times the games seems to be giving you a choice, but all roads lead to Tevinter anyway, such as in Shepherding Wolves and the end game.  Don't even include those "non-optional options" in the dialogue if they're not going to lead to something actually happening.  It just makes Hawke look like a complete doofus.

And no, Hawke's end game is not different depending on what you choose.  The only difference is Hawke disappearing a bit earlier in the mage ending than in the templar ending.

P.S. Cut it out with all the hateboy/ fanboy crap.  No one cares about your pissing contest, it just detracts and will probably get the thread locked.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 juillet 2011 - 06:18 .

[txgoldrush]

Addai67 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

no, fans just simply miss the entire point of DAII....

...that the world is bigger than just one man or woman.

It breaks WRPG cliche and norms, where you are commonly a god hero in which the world bows down to your decisions.

And just because Hawke's choices don't mean much in the grand scope of things, they surely mean alot to the characters around him, from his sibling, to his companions, to other NPCs.

If people wanted to play a JRPG, that's probably what they'd be playing.

I think what is most frustrating are the numerous times the games seems to be giving you a choice, but all roads lead to Tevinter anyway, such as in Shepherding Wolves and the end game.  Don't even include those "non-optional options" in the dialogue if they're not going to lead to something actually happening.  It just makes Hawke look like a complete doofus.

And no, Hawke's end game is not different depending on what you choose.  The only difference is Hawke disappearing a bit earlier in the mage ending than in the templar ending.

and the only difference makes it by logic, different. But then there is the question of do the mages symbolize Hawke as their savior or their oppressor?

The ending is more "subtle" in its differences than games of the past.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 16 juillet 2011 - 06:22 .

[Sutekh]

xkg wrote...

And you miss the entire point of DRAGON AGE franchise - it is about THEDAS not about any single person. At least that how it was before DA2.

I think you're unfair. It's still about Thedas. The fact that Hawke is so helpless and events happen no matter what is a proof of that.

txgoldrush wrote...

But then there is the question of do the mages symbolize Hawke as their savior or their oppressor?

Which will only be relevant if Hawke becomes the center of the DA franchise. If the franchise is about Thedas (which I hope, and DA3 will tell), what Hawke symbolizes is secondary, unless we have a branching Act IV DLC in which the consequences of that choice are actually played.

[Addai]

txgoldrush wrote...

The ending is more "subtle" in its differences than games of the past.

Well that's a nice marketing word.  <_<  People want meaningful choice when they play this type of RPG.  We were supposed to see more consequence to our choices in this game than in Origins, according to how the game was marketed.

The fact that it was a mediocre game in other ways just reinforces the disappointment of this.  Since you like the game, you're willing to handwave the weaknesses, but don't try to paint over them.

[tmp7704]

txgoldrush wrote...

f) So Hawke becoming a champion for one side doesn't matter?

It doesn't appear to really matter in the sense choosing the side doesn't seem to have any impact -- ultimately the war erupts and is exactly the same for these involved no matter which side Hawke decides to choose.
 

So the fate of the sibling doesn't matter?

Since the surviving sibling appears to have no impact on the world whatsoever, no. The world is the same no matter which of them dies, which lives --if any-- and what they decide to do with their lives.

So his love interest doesn't matter?

Supposedly being the love interest makes the character stay with Hawke in the end. At this point we don't know if it makes any difference.

This game does have meaningful choice and consquence. Bethany's involvemnt as a Circle mage for instance, can alter the entire tone of the endgame.

The tone, maybe. The outcome, no. So what "meaningful consequence" is that, really?

[Travie]

Gone are the days when one person could do all the levels, dialogue, and combat for an entire side quest single-handedly.

Gone are the days when Jon Romero could complete the entire last 1/4 of the production of Quake single-handedly.

Now it takes hundreds of man hours to do a single level of design, not to mention writing and programming...

Its a new era of game design, think on how long it would take to recreate Baldur's Gate in the Gamebro engine? Believe me, people have tried, and its no cakewalk.

Modifié par Travie, 16 juillet 2011 - 06:52 .

[mordarwarlock]

[QUOTE]
a) Nevermind the fact that TW2's ending was commonly criticized for being abrupt and disappointing. I am not alone. I do think TW2 is better than DAII (and DAO), but a flaw is a flaw.[/QUOTE]

nevermind the fact that TW 2's ending even tho was abrupt and short at least it's ten times better than DA 2 "you are hawke and you cause a war between templars and mages that would've still happened if you weren't there"

[QUOTE]
And in DAII, you can execute Anders, spare him, side with the templars or mages, your point? The Chantry bombing sequence in DAII's "Landsmeet".[/QUOTe]

yeah, execute anders or spare him after not avoiding the blowing of half a city and keep on him rambling about not all mages are bad, at least in DA:O you could kill loghain, or keep anders, or make them fight, the fact you compare the chantry sequence with DA:O landsmeet shows you don't know much what you are talking about

[QUOTE]
c) And the darkspawn burn Denerim. The extremists are the anatgonists like the Darkspawn are to DAO. You can't do anything from keeping the spawn from attacking Denerim no matter how hard you try. You are railroaded into the bait. Ever thought that companions can be villains as well? Sometimes you can't change someone or stop something from happening. I know it breaks WRPG norm in which you are the god in everything by games end, but the choice with Anders is how to deal with him after he does his thing.[/QUOTe]

except in DA 2 they don't show as extremist until the very end of the game where you see those 2 rat bastards orsino and meredith are exactly the same garbage even tho througouth the whole chapter 3 they behave completely different and even make you believe they could be reasoned with, even meredith for christ sakes

but no, scratch that, they both go batsh*t insane for no reason at the end....such genius man, you are right, DA 2 it's the epithome of storytelling and breaks the WRPG norm

because again DA 2 it's the first game to do it........such nonsense

[QUOTE]
d) use your brain.....a) Cullen and his men bow down to you and you become Viscount or He and his men let you go and you become an outcast. And last time I checked the main protagonist is Hawke. Even with Meridith and Orsino killed in both sides of it THE ENDING IN HAWKES STORY IS DIFFERENT!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

outcast or viscount, WOAH dude, such GRAND change of schemes where all they offer you it's a change of words.....

and meredith and orsino ARE the main NPC's of Chapter 3, even tho it's hawke's story they SHOULD feel important in the whole story, they don't, you just end up killing the, and the end it's exactly the same

no wait, you become a viscount or an outcast, again, such genius words means the ending it's 100% different

[QUOTE]
e) Never said that DAII has a grand finale, it could have been much better. However, it fit with the themes of the game.[/QUOTE]

except the theme of the game it's about a man's rising to power and how he changes everything....except everything would've change even if he wasn't there...again, genius

[QUOTE]
f) So Hawke becoming a champion for one side doesn't matter? So the fate of the sibling doesn't matter? So his love interest doesn't matter?[/QUOTE]

ummm how about no?, your sibling would've died if anders wasn't there at the end of chapter 1, or, if your sibling joined the Grey wardens he helps you at the end or if your siblings joins the templars/chantry she would.....and here comes the grand plot twist of it all..........wait for it...............they would still help you in the end, again, genius

or, in the case of the love interest, isabella...stays with you at the end if you romanced here same with merril...or....they would both leave your side if you choose the other side if you didn't romanced them at all, woah man, such choices and consequences, incredible indeed

[QUOTE]
Get off your DAII hatedom high horse and use your thick skull. This game does have meaningful choice and consquence. Bethany's involvemnt as a Circle mage for instance, can alter the entire tone of the endgame.[/QUOTE]

seriously?, again people has proven you that those choices and consequences are no meaningful at all, yet you don your metal cap again each and every arguement thrown and you and still keep spewing the same nonsense, the exact same nonsense that you have been spewing in each and every thread withouth not even changing anything

come on man, again, troll harder, at least you would be funnier that way

[QUOTE]
Just like every other Bioware RPG. Tell me that KOTOR is different, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, even DAO....Its all the same, but instead of the end choice being between goody goody or meanie, its mage or templar.[/QUOTe]

thousand of people has already proven you otherwise, again, keep on your thick metal helmet on, like every other fanboy out there

[QUOTE]
g) and how is DAII proven it can't be defended....lol....simple DAII hater nothing more.[/quote]

with each and every arguement proven against you

[QUOTE]
a) and hateboys are too thick headed to see that DAII does many things right. [/QUOTE]

I've acknowledged that DA 2 has done several things right, but the ammount of fail ideas thrown in it overweights the little things that were done right

you on the contrary overweight those few things right and put them far above the ammount of garbage that exist in DA 2, what's going to be next?, that the Waves after waves of enemies it's something to appreciate in this game?

[QUOTE]
and in most WRPGs, the player is bigger than the world...even in Ultima. Fallout is another huge example.[/QUOTE]

see?, you just contradicted yourself, you say this game it's about hawke story and how he affects everything yet criticize several games for doing the exact same thing....just stop it man, everyone has already proven how much of a troll are you

[QUOTE]
c) and then there is the shivering isles....[/QUOTE]

and then there's DA 2: Legacy....a DLC where hawke goes to defeat the ultimate evil....perhaps it will be different but how Bioware has been marketing it......lets just say you are a hypocrite and leave it there k'?

[QUOTE]
d) and then keep belittleing me for things I have not said...great argument.
[/QUOTE]

yet things that you imply, yoou know like "DA 2 it's a rpg that breaks every WRPG norm", such a blatant lie

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

Riordan isn't comparable, because Riordan doesn't have the treaties.

He is comparable in the areas which apply to the characters equally -- both Riordan and player/Alistair have to operate in country where the public is told the wardens are traitors and there's reward for capturing them. The player/Alistair avoid getting captured but Riordan fails in this area. It can be argued that if he actually had the treaties, getting himself imprisoned would render him unable to use them, and his mission wouldn't even get to the point where the armies got gathered.

Another area of comparison is the fight in Denerim -- you have all three wardens there, but only one decides on a brilliant plan which results in discovering exactly how the gravity works. Again, it can be argued that even if Riordan had treaties and put the armies together, he'd ultimately end as splatter on Denerim pavement, the way he actually did.

If we take this as cannon (and that's a big IF) that doesn't show that the Warden is a special leader, or that the armies of Ferelden could not have been gathered, or anything of the sort. It shows simply that the combination of Alistar, Leliana, Morrigain + dog is fails to kill the archdemon. 

The leadership of Alistair doesn't end in failure. The combat prowess of Alistair ends in failure. But that's just saying that the Warden is better at murdering things. Maybe if Sten was there, or Oghren, the whole battle ends in victory because Sten or Oghren can bring down the Archdemon.

This is discussing possible reasons of failure. But it doesn't change the fact ultimately the failure does take place, and the outcome is opposite of what the player's warden manages to achieve. Which shows plainly that what the player's character achieves isn't just something that could be done by every other warden.

And if we really must get into these possible reasons, then using your own line of reasoning (that it's certain team composition that fails) it can be argued that the failure was caused by choosing that particular party instead of another more capable one, or in not coordinating their efforts well enough. Both these being something other than "being better at murdering things" -- the actual qualities of a leader.

[txgoldrush]

[quote]mordarwarlock wrote...

[QUOTE]
a) Nevermind the fact that TW2's ending was commonly criticized for being abrupt and disappointing. I am not alone. I do think TW2 is better than DAII (and DAO), but a flaw is a flaw.[/QUOTE]

a) nevermind the fact that TW 2's ending even tho was abrupt and short at least it's ten times better than DA 2 "you are hawke and you cause a war between templars and mages that would've still happened if you weren't there"

[QUOTE]
And in DAII, you can execute Anders, spare him, side with the templars or mages, your point? The Chantry bombing sequence in DAII's "Landsmeet".[/QUOTe]

yeah, execute anders or spare him after not avoiding the blowing of half a city and keep on him rambling about not all mages are bad, at least in DA:O you could kill loghain, or keep anders, or make them fight, the fact you compare the chantry sequence with DA:O landsmeet shows you don't know much what you are talking about

[QUOTE]
c) And the darkspawn burn Denerim. The extremists are the anatgonists like the Darkspawn are to DAO. You can't do anything from keeping the spawn from attacking Denerim no matter how hard you try. You are railroaded into the bait. Ever thought that companions can be villains as well? Sometimes you can't change someone or stop something from happening. I know it breaks WRPG norm in which you are the god in everything by games end, but the choice with Anders is how to deal with him after he does his thing.[/QUOTe]

c) except in DA 2 they don't show as extremist until the very end of the game where you see those 2 rat bastards orsino and meredith are exactly the same garbage even tho througouth the whole chapter 3 they behave completely different and even make you believe they could be reasoned with, even meredith for christ sakes

but no, scratch that, they both go batsh*t insane for no reason at the end....such genius man, you are right, DA 2 it's the epithome of storytelling and breaks the WRPG norm

because again DA 2 it's the first game to do it........such nonsense

[QUOTE]
d) use your brain.....a) Cullen and his men bow down to you and you become Viscount or He and his men let you go and you become an outcast. And last time I checked the main protagonist is Hawke. Even with Meridith and Orsino killed in both sides of it THE ENDING IN HAWKES STORY IS DIFFERENT!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

d) outcast or viscount, WOAH dude, such GRAND change of schemes where all they offer you it's a change of words.....

and meredith and orsino ARE the main NPC's of Chapter 3, even tho it's hawke's story they SHOULD feel important in the whole story, they don't, you just end up killing the, and the end it's exactly the same

no wait, you become a viscount or an outcast, again, such genius words means the ending it's 100% different

[QUOTE]
e) Never said that DAII has a grand finale, it could have been much better. However, it fit with the themes of the game.[/QUOTE]

e) except the theme of the game it's about a man's rising to power and how he changes everything....except everything would've change even if he wasn't there...again, genius

[QUOTE]
f) So Hawke becoming a champion for one side doesn't matter? So the fate of the sibling doesn't matter? So his love interest doesn't matter?[/QUOTE]

f) ummm how about no?, your sibling would've died if anders wasn't there at the end of chapter 1, or, if your sibling joined the Grey wardens he helps you at the end or if your siblings joins the templars/chantry she would.....and here comes the grand plot twist of it all..........wait for it...............they would still help you in the end, again, genius

or, in the case of the love interest, isabella...stays with you at the end if you romanced here same with merril...or....they would both leave your side if you choose the other side if you didn't romanced them at all, woah man, such choices and consequences, incredible indeed

[QUOTE]
Get off your DAII hatedom high horse and use your thick skull. This game does have meaningful choice and consquence. Bethany's involvemnt as a Circle mage for instance, can alter the entire tone of the endgame.[/QUOTE]

g) seriously?, again people has proven you that those choices and consequences are no meaningful at all, yet you don your metal cap again each and every arguement thrown and you and still keep spewing the same nonsense, the exact same nonsense that you have been spewing in each and every thread withouth not even changing anything

come on man, again, troll harder, at least you would be funnier that way

[QUOTE]
Just like every other Bioware RPG. Tell me that KOTOR is different, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, even DAO....Its all the same, but instead of the end choice being between goody goody or meanie, its mage or templar.[/QUOTe]

h) thousand of people has already proven you otherwise, again, keep on your thick metal helmet on, like every other fanboy out there

[QUOTE]
g) and how is DAII proven it can't be defended....lol....simple DAII hater nothing more.[/quote]

with each and every arguement proven against you

[QUOTE]
a) and hateboys are too thick headed to see that DAII does many things right. [/QUOTE]

i) I've acknowledged that DA 2 has done several things right, but the ammount of fail ideas thrown in it overweights the little things that were done right

you on the contrary overweight those few things right and put them far above the ammount of garbage that exist in DA 2, what's going to be next?, that the Waves after waves of enemies it's something to appreciate in this game?

[QUOTE]
and in most WRPGs, the player is bigger than the world...even in Ultima. Fallout is another huge example.[/QUOTE]

J) see?, you just contradicted yourself, you say this game it's about hawke story and how he affects everything yet criticize several games for doing the exact same thing....just stop it man, everyone has already proven how much of a troll are you

[QUOTE]
c) and then there is the shivering isles....[/QUOTE]

k) and then there's DA 2: Legacy....a DLC where hawke goes to defeat the ultimate evil....perhaps it will be different but how Bioware has been marketing it......lets just say you are a hypocrite and leave it there k'?

[QUOTE]
d) and then keep belittleing me for things I have not said...great argument.
[/QUOTE]

l) yet things that you imply, yoou know like "DA 2 it's a rpg that breaks every WRPG norm", such a blatant lie

[/quote]

a) the ending of TW2 is just Geralt, Triss, and Roche/Iorveth leaving the ruins...wow. Its just as bad if not worse than DAII's ending. Made worse by CDProjeckt promising 16 endings. Talk about rushed, TW2's Act III is just as rushed as DAII's as well.

dealing with Anders is almost the exact same as dealing with Loghain, the only real difference was that he was a companion and not an antagonist. If you spare Loghain, Allistair leaves, if you spare Anders, Sebastian leaves. In fact Sebastian has a credible reason for leaving, Alistair just whines, pouts, and leaves failing to look at the big picture.

c and d) The are plenty of extremists, its not just Orsino and Meredith. And the developers stated that the true main antagonist is circumstance, not some Big Bad. So Meredith and Orsino do not have to be the most important NPCs out there.

Think about it, the ending is no less or more siginificant in its variance that say Mass Effect's endings. And who knows how big of a differnece Hawkes choices make in DAIII. Sure as hell beats that I am the great saint or I am the great meanie of games past where it was all black and white with no grey.

e) WRONG...its about how one man its not responsible for a failure in society. You don't pay enough attention do you. Marketing campaign =/= the games true story.

f) Yes, they will always help you (however Bethany can die in the endgame), however, their presence in the ending, especially if their not a Warden can change some of the dynamics of the endgame. And almost all companions can leave you or fight you at the end based on your choices. I say that schoice and consquence.

g) But those who say that it has no meaningful choice and consquence at all are proven wrong. There is choice and consquence. Is it meaningful as some other WRPGs...hell no, but its really no different from past Bioware games except the tone of the work.

h) And where is the proof? Almost every Bioware game your decisions rarely matter until the end, DAII is no different. You go through the same plot, the same circumstance, with most choices (almost all) have no consquences outside the alignment meter. And what makes DAII slightly BETTER than past games is that there is no big key decision that slams you morality meter in the opposite direction, no poision the Water Dragon moment here. In fact the consquences coming out of DAII's side quests are in fact much better than side quests of the past games from KOTOR on. Past games rarely remind you of what you did on side quests and the only consquence was a alignment shift. Do I open Tien's Landings dam? Doesn't matter, consquence is not shown later in any meaningful way. I am a fan of Bioware games, but almost all suck when it comes to showing the consquences of your actions. DAII is no different from any other bioware game, other than it lacks these dumb alignment meters.

i) Waves of enemies ARE good, that means you can not stay stationary, you have to move your mages and archers around. It brings more strategy to a fight. Waves can be implimented better however, but the idea is great.

j) and how did I contradict myself? By a god like character I mean how the world changes is almost always player dependant. See Fallout, the entire world only changes after the player interacts with it, the protagonist is the only character than can change things, no one else can. The NPCs are stationary. The world can not change by aspects other than his decisions. The protagonist is way too powerful when it comes to shaping the world. Thats why a game like The Witcher is so refreshing. Geralt is not the only character that can make decisions and change things. DAII is the same way, Hawke can make decisions, but so can Anders, and Meredith, and Cullen, and Aveline, and Isabela. The world is much more alive and the protagonist much more human that way.

k) see j above

l) It breaks a lot of WRPG norms, that is a fact.

[xkg]

txgoldrush wrote...

dealing with Anders is almost the exact same as dealing with Loghain, the only real difference was that he was a companion and not an antagonist. If you spare Loghain, Allistair leaves, if you spare Anders, Sebastian leaves. In fact Sebastian has a credible reason for leaving, Alistair just whines, pouts, and leaves failing to look at the big picture.

Hahaha. Always good laff on you. Your fanboism is beoynd any reason.

"Alistair just whines, pouts, and leaves failing to look at the big picture"

Maybe read this first :
http://dragonage.wik...dsmeet_Outcomes

[Yrkoon]

txgoldrush wrote...

What sickens me more is people complaining about aspects in DAII that most RPGs in the past have. You hear all the whining about not being able to customize your teammates armor, but then PST didn't let you equip everything on everyone either.

Yes, you can get to PST's one ending in many different ways, however, that doesn't escape the fact that you can't change that one ending.

Fallout 2, one main ending, Vault 13 residents and tribals create a new village of Arroyo together, no matter what the player did or how good or evil he was. There was no option for evil players to kill them all, or join the Enclave, etc.

And  he misses the point... again. You can take any RPG and find at least one flaw in it (has anyone here argued otherwise?). The difference, though, is that  DA2 manages to nail just about every conceivable flaw from every single big name RPG you can think up.    The same cannot be said for the other RPGs you've cited.

For example,   Like DA2,  Fallout 2 only has one ending.  However,  Fallout  isn't a game painfully riddled with re-used maps... DA2 is.

Like DA2, In  Planescape: Torment  you're extremely limited in Companion gear customization.  However, You can actually talk to your companions whenenver you want in Planescape Torment.  You can't in DA2..


ETC.  ETC.  But you did this thread to discuss *choice*, and, as comical as it is to  see you trying to compare DA2 with such classics like Torment and fallout with regards to the subject of player choices, you continue to do so.  Perhaps its time for you to bring  in that alternate account  of yours to try to help you out here... like you did  the last time we had  a discussion about how not-great DA2 is.  lol

Modifié par Yrkoon, 16 juillet 2011 - 08:26 .

[txgoldrush]

xkg wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

dealing with Anders is almost the exact same as dealing with Loghain, the only real difference was that he was a companion and not an antagonist. If you spare Loghain, Allistair leaves, if you spare Anders, Sebastian leaves. In fact Sebastian has a credible reason for leaving, Alistair just whines, pouts, and leaves failing to look at the big picture.

Hahaha. Always good laff on you. Your fanboism is beoynd any reason.

"Alistair just whines, pouts, and leaves failing to look at the big picture"

Maybe read this first :
http://dragonage.wik...dsmeet_Outcomes

So.....you can never have Loghian or Allistair in th eparty at the same time, just like you cannot have Sebastian and Anders in the smae party at the end.

He leaves your party, king or not, if Loghain is spared.

[xkg]

txgoldrush wrote...

xkg wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

dealing with Anders is almost the exact same as dealing with Loghain, the only real difference was that he was a companion and not an antagonist. If you spare Loghain, Allistair leaves, if you spare Anders, Sebastian leaves. In fact Sebastian has a credible reason for leaving, Alistair just whines, pouts, and leaves failing to look at the big picture.

Hahaha. Always good laff on you. Your fanboism is beoynd any reason.

"Alistair just whines, pouts, and leaves failing to look at the big picture"

Maybe read this first :
http://dragonage.wik...dsmeet_Outcomes

So.....you can never have Loghian or Allistair in th eparty at the same time, just like you cannot have Sebastian and Anders in the smae party at the end.

He leaves your party, king or not, if Loghain is spared.

I'am not talking about them satying together in the party. I am talking about your ridiculous choice of words to prove your points.

"Alistair just whines, pouts, and leaves failing to look at the big picture"

Did you miss that part where he is not leaving just beacuse "he whine and can't see the big picture" but he bacame the KING.

If Becoming the king for you is the same as "failing to look at the big picture" then how can anyone take your arguments seriously.
lol

Modifié par xkg, 16 juillet 2011 - 08:26 .

[txgoldrush]

Yrkoon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

What sickens me more is people complaining about aspects in DAII that most RPGs in the past have. You hear all the whining about not being able to customize your teammates armor, but then PST didn't let you equip everything on everyone either.

Yes, you can get to PST's one ending in many different ways, however, that doesn't escape the fact that you can't change that one ending.

Fallout 2, one main ending, Vault 13 residents and tribals create a new village of Arroyo together, no matter what the player did or how good or evil he was. There was no option for evil players to kill them all, or join the Enclave, etc.

And  he misses the point... again. You can take any RPG and find at least one flaw in it (has anyone here argued otherwise?). The difference, though, is that  DA2 manages to nail just about every conceivable flaw from every single big name RPG you can think up.    The same cannot be said for the other RPGs you've cited.

For example,   Like DA2,  Fallout 2 only has one ending.  However,  Fallout  isn't a game painfully riddled with re-used maps... DA2 is.

Like DA2, In  Planescape: Torment  you're extremely limited in Companion gear customization.  However, You can actually talk to your companions whenenver you want in Planescape Torment.  You can't in DA2..

ETC.  ETC.  But you did this thread to discuss *choice*, and, as comical as it is to  see you trying to compare DA2 with such classics like Torment and fallout with regards to the subject of player choices, you continue to do so.

However, Fallout 2 is missing a huge part of the game, has several broken quests, and is way more buggy than DAII is. Just like DAII, it was rushed to the market before it was complete.

The combat system is much worse in PST than it is in DAII, and playing a speechcraft character is the only great way to play PST.

Ultima VII has a busted inventory system where you can screw yourself over losing an important object. DAII doesn't have this flaw.

Are Planescape Torment and Fallout 2 better games than DAII? Yes. Do they do choice and consquence better? Yes. But like DAII, they don't matter in the end, just like DAII.

But the flaws fans whine about in DAII were alive and well in the old classic games, maybe even worse than in DAII. And there is many flaws in classic RPGs that DAII doesn't have.

[Yrkoon]

txgoldrush wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

What sickens me more is people complaining about aspects in DAII that most RPGs in the past have. You hear all the whining about not being able to customize your teammates armor, but then PST didn't let you equip everything on everyone either.

Yes, you can get to PST's one ending in many different ways, however, that doesn't escape the fact that you can't change that one ending.

Fallout 2, one main ending, Vault 13 residents and tribals create a new village of Arroyo together, no matter what the player did or how good or evil he was. There was no option for evil players to kill them all, or join the Enclave, etc.

And  he misses the point... again. You can take any RPG and find at least one flaw in it (has anyone here argued otherwise?). The difference, though, is that  DA2 manages to nail just about every conceivable flaw from every single big name RPG you can think up.    The same cannot be said for the other RPGs you've cited.

For example,   Like DA2,  Fallout 2 only has one ending.  However,  Fallout  isn't a game painfully riddled with re-used maps... DA2 is.

Like DA2, In  Planescape: Torment  you're extremely limited in Companion gear customization.  However, You can actually talk to your companions whenenver you want in Planescape Torment.  You can't in DA2..

ETC.  ETC.  But you did this thread to discuss *choice*, and, as comical as it is to  see you trying to compare DA2 with such classics like Torment and fallout with regards to the subject of player choices, you continue to do so.

However.....

Just stop.   You're going to get BURIED if you try to play the "lets count the flaws" game.

[xkg]

@txgoldrush:
ahh so you're saying that DA2 combat system is better than D&D combat system.
Well ok. Maybe i'll just finish here without any comments.

Modifié par xkg, 16 juillet 2011 - 08:39 .

[alex90c]

xkg wrote...

@txgoldrush:
ahh so you're saying that DA2 combat system is better than D&D combat system.
Well ok. Maybe i'll just finish here without any comments.

Hell yeah. I love mashing buttons to victory

awesome
Awesome
AWESOME
AWESOME!
AWESOME!!!

where's that demotivational of "awesome" with gradually more and more gore?

[txgoldrush]

Yrkoon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

What sickens me more is people complaining about aspects in DAII that most RPGs in the past have. You hear all the whining about not being able to customize your teammates armor, but then PST didn't let you equip everything on everyone either.

Yes, you can get to PST's one ending in many different ways, however, that doesn't escape the fact that you can't change that one ending.

Fallout 2, one main ending, Vault 13 residents and tribals create a new village of Arroyo together, no matter what the player did or how good or evil he was. There was no option for evil players to kill them all, or join the Enclave, etc.

And  he misses the point... again. You can take any RPG and find at least one flaw in it (has anyone here argued otherwise?). The difference, though, is that  DA2 manages to nail just about every conceivable flaw from every single big name RPG you can think up.    The same cannot be said for the other RPGs you've cited.

For example,   Like DA2,  Fallout 2 only has one ending.  However,  Fallout  isn't a game painfully riddled with re-used maps... DA2 is.

Like DA2, In  Planescape: Torment  you're extremely limited in Companion gear customization.  However, You can actually talk to your companions whenenver you want in Planescape Torment.  You can't in DA2..

ETC.  ETC.  But you did this thread to discuss *choice*, and, as comical as it is to  see you trying to compare DA2 with such classics like Torment and fallout with regards to the subject of player choices, you continue to do so.

However.....

Just stop.   You're going to get BURIED if you try to play the "lets count the flaws" game.

Severity of the flaws is also a factor. Many flaws in DAII are "overblown" like the waves of enemies or not being able to equip armor on teammates. Thats fluff. There are more serious flaws like recycled maps and bad world design, that is legit. In fact, if it wasn't for the recycled maps, DAII would be FAR better recieved.

DAII is nowhere near the buugy mess that Fallout 2 was. DAII was bad in the bugginess, no doubt, but Fallout 2 was almost unplayable at launch and still can be. It was never fixed, and the game was so broken, new bugs pop up when the game is patched.

Do I consider DAII a classic RPG? Hell no....its an 8.0-8.5 game and a disappointment considering what Bioware had going, however, its not a complete piece of trash. There are far far worse RPGs than DAII.