583 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica83]

yes true meh... and the plot of DA2 have so huge mistakes... You have a family and you don't know almost NOTHING of it... This is an important aspect of the plot they should take care... The interaction with your family are really weak and really poor of content.. Just bland...

But if i must write all the mistakes da2 did with the plot well.. it takes weeks

[Yrkoon]

iggy4566 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

The fact that there's even a fire in the first place is a testiment to the fact that something went terribly wrong with DA2.

We didn't see this kind of consistant and extended vitriol across the board when ANY OTHER Bioware sequel came out. Didn't happen with BG2, didn't happen with ME2.

Both sides need to stop crying at one another.

No,   Nothing meaningful  can ever come from ordering both sides to go to their respective corners  and sit in time out or whatever.

You  can call it "crying" if you want.   But I call it  emotional feedback.   Something that's more useful to gaming companies than you might think.   And  we've already had a Developer come in to this very thread and thank us for  it.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 juillet 2011 - 11:34 .

[Walrusninja]

Corto, we are all entitled to opinions. Personally, despite my irritations in parts, I enjoyed DA2 as a game, I could see round the flaws, as did most reviewers.

1. By experimenting I meant trying out different ideas, like the new approach to combat, ME2 style clothing system, different chat system, voice acted pc and the list goes on.
2. There were reused ares in DA2 yes, there were also reused areas in DA;O and Awakening....
3. Choices, well ... Anders for a start? No matter what I do, the end is morally grey.
4. Origins had 10 minute or less quests in abundance too!
5. Exploration .... um yeah, simpyl by travelling and seeing new areas you're exploring. What you're complaining about is not getting to see enough outside Kirkwall which I agree with. Research? What Research did Origins have ? They both have a Codex.

Come on, pull yourself together. Learn to spot the good and bad.

[txgoldrush]

xkg wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

I can change alot in DAII, I can choose who lives and who dies, who can turn against me, whether Aveline can marry or not, whether Petrice lives or dies, whether Gamlen finds his daughter, and whether I become the mages champion or oppressor.

If you take out DAO's and DAO Awakening's ending cards, you will find that DAII actually shows more of the consquences of your actions than DAO and its expansion does.

There are too many choices in origins so I wont list all here but on top of my head (only important choices)

txgoldrush wrote...
I can change alot in DAII,
I can choose who lives and who dies,
whether Petrice lives or dies,

I can kill Zevran, Wynne, Leliana, Shale, Dog at Ostagar, leave Sten in his cage for certain death,
I can kill Loghain, Flemeth
I can kill Werewolves/Dalish
I can decide the fate of Conor/His mother

I can decide the fate of Jowan, if I let him free i can find him later defending refugees, or i can send him to the fade and later i can spare or execute him.

I can even choose to die MYSELF, or just let Alistair/Loghain sacrifice him self .
Of course I can perform Morrigan's Ritual and no one will die.

If I really want and manage to ****** off/kill all my companions I can be left with only Alistair in my party before the final battle.

txgoldrush wrote...
who can turn against me

Wynne, Leliana, Shale, Oghren, Zevran, Sten can turn against me.

txgoldrush wrote...
whether Aveline can marry or not

Yep, I can decide whether Alistair will marry Anora, ohhh I can even marry him/her myself
I can decide about Oghren - Felsi relationship

txgoldrush wrote...
whether Gamlen finds his daughter

How about Alistair and his sister Goldanna. Gamlen's daughter is a pure "cosmetic choice", Alistair quest has serious impact on the story.

txgoldrush wrote...
and whether I become the mages champion or oppressor.

I can become QUEEN/KING of Ferelden.

And mages - here I have even more choices than DA2.
First I can decide thier fate (tower) - if I let them live then later I can set (or not) the entire circle free (boon).
In DA2 siding with mages or not is really meaningless - in DAO it has real impact later (like Irving helping with Conor's quest)



Anyone ? feel free to give some more examples from DAO or counter those examples with DA2 choices.

I have Updated this list a little.

congrats on trying to argue a point I didn't make....my point was DAII has meaninful choice and consquence.

And you still have not countered that except for ending cards DAII shows you the consquence of your actions more than DAO does (and neither does it well).

The only mid game consquece that truly matters is whether the mages live or die in the Tower quest and how it impacts the Connor quest. The rest are artificial and shallow. The only consquences truly shown are who can be called up to be fodder in the final battle, and ending cards (and comparing DAO to say New Vegas, while New Vegas does have ending cards, choices have profound impacts on the gameplay well before the end, this is not the same in DAO).. While DAII's consquences are shallow, at least they remind me of what I did before, such as how I dealt with the blood mage in the brothel, or what I did with Fenyrial and they do it by either letter or appearance. In dealing with the Magister's son, the girl I rescued can show up if I killed the son. The only true choices that affect the main plot are at the end of both games (landsmeet and ritual in DAO, and the chantry bombing in DAII), just like every Bioware game. At least DAII gives you some outcomes on the small, side stuff. Nothing as deep as say The Witcher or Tactics ogre, but the consquences are there.

Not to mention that in DAII, who I bring in my party is a significant choice that can add ot take away options. DAO can't claim this. The only affect that party members have on scenes outside companion quests in DAO are crisis points and maybe some unique dialogue. In DAII, having a mage at the right time can allow for more options, while Fenris being in the party against Tevinter slavers limits choices. Try doing All The remains with Varric in the party and Gascand alive and see the result, or take Anders with you in Varrics personal quest in Act II (which alters the nature of the decision entirely and Varrics reaction to it), or take Merrill with you to the brother to confront that blood mage who possesses you. Not only that, you can have companions make decisions for you at certain points. Nevermind the Deep Roads moment in DAII where who you bring in the party affects things.

Oh, and regarding character development. DAII has far more options and far more development paths for characters than DAO does. Alistair and Leliana are the only Origin characters to have more than two development paths (excluding crisis points), whether you romance them or not, and whether you harden them are not. The rest of the cast either has two (Morrigan and Zervan) or just one (everyone else). In DAII however, all characters have a least two, with many having more. Merrill, Isabela, and Fenris have FOUR paths to take, five if you count special disaffection. Aveline has three (friendship, rivalry, relationship break but doesn't leave) and the rest have two. So DAII one ups DAO in the character development department as well.

Is DAII good at showing consquences? No....far to shallow. But DAO would be a lot worse if it wasn't for ending cards.

[HawXV2]

Monica83 wrote...

yes true meh... and the plot of DA2 have so huge mistakes... You have a family and you don't know almost NOTHING of it... This is an important aspect of the plot they should take care... The interaction with your family are really weak and really poor of content.. Just bland...

But if i must write all the mistakes da2 did with the plot well.. it takes weeks

Basically, you want them to start with his mother as child, watch her grow up, meet Hawke's father, flash back his childhood, watch him grow up, then, watch Hawke grow up up to the point of Ostagar, then take control?

I don't know about you, but I felt fairly close to my sister and mother. 

[Kaiser Shepard]

txgoldrush wrote...

I can change alot in DAII, I can choose who lives and who dies,

Not nearly as much a much as most people would like.

who can turn against me,

Not much of a conscious choice.

 

whether Aveline can marry or not,

That's just completing her quest in the only possible way.

 

whether Petrice lives or dies,

Not really, because a polite or sarcastic Hawke apparently can't be a plotting Hawke.
 

whether Gamlen finds his daughter,

Woah, major gamechanger here. 

and whether I become the mages champion or oppressor.

Doesn't really change much, sadly enough.

Yes, its true that you can't change much in the big picture HOWEVER, the personal aspects of the story change wildly from player choices, more so than DAO.

If you take out DAO's and DAO Awakening's ending cards, you will find that DAII actually shows more of the consquences of your actions than DAO and its expansion does. Its no where near The Witcher 2 when it comes to consquences, but DAII is just the same as any Bioware game including DAO (despite its unique plot structure), haters simply refuse to admit that

True, true, and I've argued the same before. The thing just is that none of DAII's choices feel really fulfilling, especially not after being told your character will change the world. Also, after the excellent Landsmeet arc in Origins, I sort of expected Hawke getting railroaded into a quasi-political position would have some relevance... but alas, Hawke is never allowed to play the game himself.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 21 juillet 2011 - 02:12 .

[tmp7704]

txgoldrush wrote...

Oh, and regarding character development. DAII has far more options and far more development paths for characters than DAO does. Alistair and Leliana are the only Origin characters to have more than two development paths (excluding crisis points), whether you romance them or not, and whether you harden them are not. The rest of the cast either has two (Morrigan and Zervan) or just one (everyone else). In DAII however, all characters have a least two, with many having more. Merrill, Isabela, and Fenris have FOUR paths to take, five if you count special disaffection. Aveline has three (friendship, rivalry, relationship break but doesn't leave) and the rest have two. So DAII one ups DAO in the character development department as well.

Afraid this argument is confusing the character development (which is character growth and porentially change) with a plot path. In both games there's paths which don't result in any actual character development -- the "frienship" paths especially, since these can involve just ensuring the companion they're right, and there's no reason for them to develop or change their views whatsoever. And so as result, they don't.

Is DAII good at showing consquences? No....far to shallow. But DAO would be a lot worse if it wasn't for ending cards.

That's true, but since the game does have these ending cards, such theoretical what-if is moot. You might as well argue that DA2 would be better at showing consequences if it had such cards -- it's equally theoretical  argument and not changing what the game actually is like.

Modifié par tmp7704, 21 juillet 2011 - 02:27 .

[xkg]

txgoldrush wrote...

xkg wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

I can change alot in DAII, I can choose who lives and who dies, who can turn against me, whether Aveline can marry or not, whether Petrice lives or dies, whether Gamlen finds his daughter, and whether I become the mages champion or oppressor.

If you take out DAO's and DAO Awakening's ending cards, you will find that DAII actually shows more of the consquences of your actions than DAO and its expansion does.

There are too many choices in origins so I wont list all here but on top of my head (only important choices)

txgoldrush wrote...
I can change alot in DAII,
I can choose who lives and who dies,
whether Petrice lives or dies,

I can kill Zevran, Wynne, Leliana, Shale, Dog at Ostagar, leave Sten in his cage for certain death,
I can kill Loghain, Flemeth
I can kill Werewolves/Dalish
I can decide the fate of Conor/His mother

I can decide the fate of Jowan, if I let him free i can find him later defending refugees, or i can send him to the fade and later i can spare or execute him.

I can even choose to die MYSELF, or just let Alistair/Loghain sacrifice him self .
Of course I can perform Morrigan's Ritual and no one will die.

If I really want and manage to ****** off/kill all my companions I can be left with only Alistair in my party before the final battle.

txgoldrush wrote...
who can turn against me

Wynne, Leliana, Shale, Oghren, Zevran, Sten can turn against me.

txgoldrush wrote...
whether Aveline can marry or not

Yep, I can decide whether Alistair will marry Anora, ohhh I can even marry him/her myself
I can decide about Oghren - Felsi relationship

txgoldrush wrote...
whether Gamlen finds his daughter

How about Alistair and his sister Goldanna. Gamlen's daughter is a pure "cosmetic choice", Alistair quest has serious impact on the story.

txgoldrush wrote...
and whether I become the mages champion or oppressor.

I can become QUEEN/KING of Ferelden.

And mages - here I have even more choices than DA2.
First I can decide thier fate (tower) - if I let them live then later I can set (or not) the entire circle free (boon).
In DA2 siding with mages or not is really meaningless - in DAO it has real impact later (like Irving helping with Conor's quest)



Anyone ? feel free to give some more examples from DAO or counter those examples with DA2 choices.

I have Updated this list a little.

congrats on trying to argue a point I didn't make....my point was DAII has meaninful choice and consquence.

And you still have not countered that except for ending cards DAII shows you the consquence of your actions more than DAO does (and neither does it well).

The only mid game consquece that truly matters is whether the mages live or die in the Tower quest and how it impacts the Connor quest. The rest are artificial and shallow. The only consquences truly shown are who can be called up to be fodder in the final battle, and ending cards (and comparing DAO to say New Vegas, while New Vegas does have ending cards, choices have profound impacts on the gameplay well before the end, this is not the same in DAO).. While DAII's consquences are shallow, at least they remind me of what I did before, such as how I dealt with the blood mage in the brothel, or what I did with Fenyrial and they do it by either letter or appearance. In dealing with the Magister's son, the girl I rescued can show up if I killed the son. The only true choices that affect the main plot are at the end of both games (landsmeet and ritual in DAO, and the chantry bombing in DAII), just like every Bioware game. At least DAII gives you some outcomes on the small, side stuff. Nothing as deep as say The Witcher or Tactics ogre, but the consquences are there.

Not to mention that in DAII, who I bring in my party is a significant choice that can add ot take away options. DAO can't claim this. The only affect that party members have on scenes outside companion quests in DAO are crisis points and maybe some unique dialogue. In DAII, having a mage at the right time can allow for more options, while Fenris being in the party against Tevinter slavers limits choices. Try doing All The remains with Varric in the party and Gascand alive and see the result, or take Anders with you in Varrics personal quest in Act II (which alters the nature of the decision entirely and Varrics reaction to it), or take Merrill with you to the brother to confront that blood mage who possesses you. Not only that, you can have companions make decisions for you at certain points. Nevermind the Deep Roads moment in DAII where who you bring in the party affects things.

Oh, and regarding character development. DAII has far more options and far more development paths for characters than DAO does. Alistair and Leliana are the only Origin characters to have more than two development paths (excluding crisis points), whether you romance them or not, and whether you harden them are not. The rest of the cast either has two (Morrigan and Zervan) or just one (everyone else). In DAII however, all characters have a least two, with many having more. Merrill, Isabela, and Fenris have FOUR paths to take, five if you count special disaffection. Aveline has three (friendship, rivalry, relationship break but doesn't leave) and the rest have two. So DAII one ups DAO in the character development department as well.

Is DAII good at showing consquences? No....far to shallow. But DAO would be a lot worse if it wasn't for ending cards.

Hehehe, there is no way you can counter this list huh ? You know that.
Thread title says "... CHOICES AFFECTING PLOT" and you telling me about Aveline friendship ??? lol

Your answer is exactly how i expected it to be.
And not only me.

alex90c wrote...
I guarantee you, txgoldrush will find some way to make out the DA2 "choices" were better.

List your DA2 choices to counter this list or drop this BS already - your golden tongue wont fool anyone.

Modifié par xkg, 21 juillet 2011 - 02:47 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

txgoldrush wrote...
 In DAII, having a mage at the right time can allow for more options,

And so does bring Shale or Dog at the right time can allow for more options. 

txgoldrush wrote...
while Fenris being in the party against Tevinter slavers limits choices. Try doing All The remains with Varric in the party and Gascand alive and see the result, or take Anders with you in Varrics personal quest in Act II (which alters the nature of the decision entirely and Varrics reaction to it), 

So does bringing Morrigan to RedCliff Village can limit your choice as she virtually dissaprove everything you did there. While bringing Morrigan to Mage Tower can open up new quest such as The Black Grimoire.

txgoldrush wrote...
In DAII however, all characters have a least two, with many having more. Merrill, Isabela, and Fenris have FOUR paths to take, five if you count special disaffection. Aveline has three (friendship, rivalry, relationship break but doesn't leave) and the rest have two. So DAII one ups DAO in the character development department as well.

I can see different paths for Aveline. I don't see any changes for the rest. Merril still obessive with her blood magic practise. Fenris still hate the mages. Anders still fanatics with the templars and chantry. They still talks the same things. And I still have to wait for their personal quest. But then it only concern with what they want me to do instead of just sitting down and talk privately about personal things like childhood experience and dancing under the moon  like Morrigan did. I understand, love and care for my Morrigan. I don't care about Merril or Isabella or Anders or Fenris. You know what I even skipped Fenris on my second play through. Aveline was exceptional. But that because I get to know her longer than the rest including Varric himself. Overall, whatever you write about character development is lost for me. And that's too bad. I blame DA 2 story segregation for that 

[ademska]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

I can see different paths for Aveline. I don't see any changes for the rest. Merril still obessive with her blood magic practise. Fenris still hate the mages. Anders still fanatics with the templars and chantry. They still talks the same things. And I still have to wait for their personal quest.

then you weren't paying attention. i wall o' texted around page 5-7, and i don't feel like retyping it so have some self-copypasta:

"anders, meanwhile, has two potential endings (obviously we're excluding the ability to kill characters) that vary dramatically. on one end, he ends as a unified janders, a calm assimilation of justice and anders at peace with who he is and what he's become, hopeful about the mage cause.  on the other end, he's bitter, regretful, and completely at war with himself, suffering blackouts and struggling to beat back the influence of vengeance, which is slowly taking him over. he sides against everything he believes in, and regrets it so deeply that he decides to kill himself.

edit: and, for what it's worth, these differences are readily apparent in all of anders' cutscenes and dialogue options.

so, yes, peeling back the layers of zevran or helping leliana reconcile her darker nature or convincing shale to fundamentally alter her existence are crazy awesome, bioware does amazing characters, etc...

...but that kind of influence doesn't hold up to da2 simply because there is no divergent character path. either you kick up their approval or you don't. da2 expanded the gameplay mechanics, so it's able to explore that kind of choice-influenced character dichotomy."

furthermore

"the decision you make at da2's endgame, picking a side, is one of the biggest choice maneuvers the series has ever done, if not the biggest, and it's not because of any epilogue cards detailing the political rammifications of your action.

no, it's because literally half your party has the potential to betray you either way. it's also because, depending on every choice you made during the entire game -- your actions, who you kept close in your party, the way you treated
them -- these same party react completely differently. they may leave forever, they may leave and rejoin you, they may fight you to the death, or they might actually be persuaded to join you, because they trust you so much.

this is just one example of the kind of changes your character inspires in theirs. whole dialogues throughout the game completely differ depending on how you make hawke act earlier in the game.

yes, you can still romance this woman, but her romance is going to behave significantly differently. i don't think it was handled as well with the others as it was with anders, where the rivalmance is incredibly different from the friendmance, and its conclusion is the exact opposite of the friendmance's, but the differences for merrill are still there.

in dao, you make one choice, and that choice has an immediate effect (maybe) that you never see again.

in da2, you make several consistent choices, and those choices culminate into a multitude of diverging characterizations throughout the game."

Modifié par ademska, 21 juillet 2011 - 07:46 .

[xkg]

^ hmmm. I am starting to see pattern here.
Why is it always 95% of listed choices from DA2 are romances/relationships between companions.

It is time to give some examples of these so-called "plot changing" choices. And some consequences.
Unless we agree that the whole DA2 is one huge BIG BROTHER soap opera in the house of Kirkwal.

Modifié par xkg, 21 juillet 2011 - 08:10 .

[ademska]

xkg wrote...

^ hmmm. I am starting to see pattern here.
Why is it always 95% of listed choices from DA2 are romances/relationships between companions.

It is time to give some examples of these so-called "plot changing" choices. And some consequences.
Unless we agree that the whole DA2 is one huge BIG BROTHER soap opera in the house of Kirkwal.

you're seeing those listed choices because the game's entire goddamn focus is life on a personal level. dao floats above the clouds, while da2 hovers in the streets. it's intentional.

so sorry that you consider the drama of interpersonal relationships woven into violent plots 'soap operas'. i guess you're not interested in 90% of literature and film.

i'll just link myself again and paste the most important point:

"a lot of people equate change and consequence with, say, picking a
leader or annihilating a large clan, like what dao offered (and, i might
add, what da2 offers endgame and with the dalish, respectively), but in my opinion?
the kind of change hawke effects on that personal level is far more
detailed and actually game-affecting in da2 than any of the major
choices in dao."

if you don't like this kind of focus in a game, that's fine, no one is saying you have to dig it. but don't dismiss the choice in da2 as fact, because you are flat-out incorrect.

[xkg]

ademska wrote...
you're seeing those listed choices because the game's entire goddamn focus is life on a personal level. dao floats above the clouds, while da2 hovers in the streets. it's intentional.

Something from DA2 main web page.

"Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now."

ademska wrote...
so sorry that you consider the drama of interpersonal relationships woven into violent plots 'soap operas'. i guess you're not interested in 90% of literature and film.

Dunno. I have huge collection of books about every aspect of programming. I can tell you - there are no any drama there. Big collection of history books - yep maybe there is some drama there but not THAT kind of drama.

I am usualy watching horrors/sci-fi movies - I can tell you these movies aren't heavy focused on relationships.

Your "90% of literature and film" statement is a little bit exagerrated (Varric's style maybe) 

ademska wrote...
"a lot of people equate change and consequence with, say, picking a
leader or annihilating a large clan, like what dao offered (and, i might
add, what da2 offers endgame and with the dalish, respectively), but in my opinion?
the kind of change hawke effects on that personal level is far more
detailed and actually game-affecting in da2 than any of the major
choices in dao."

Oh well you may give some examples here of big choices and their consequences later in the game.
For every 1 of your example i'll give you 2 from DAO (and I am not talking about Epiogue-Only consequences)

ademska wrote...
if you don't like this kind of focus in a game, that's fine, no one is saying you have to dig it. but don't dismiss the choice in da2 as fact, because you are flat-out incorrect.

I am not. Iam just stating simple FACT - there are far more choices and consequences in DAO. This is FACT.
You of course may like "less choices", I wont deny it to you.

Modifié par xkg, 21 juillet 2011 - 09:00 .

[ademska]

xkg wrote...

"Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now."

that's just ******-poor marketing, and i've readily conceded that point. i know you've read it, because you've responded to it.

Dunno. I have huge collection of books about every aspect of programming. I can tell you - there are no any drama there. Big collection of history books - yep maybe there is some drama there but not THAT kind of drama.

I am usualy watching horrors/sci-fi movies - I can tell you these movies aren't heavy focused on relationships.

Your "90% of literature and film" statement is a little bit exagerrated (Varric's style maybe)

are you actually serious? are you actually serious? i'm talking about fictional literature and a breadth of everything ever, not just what you watch. oh my god.

I am not. Iam just stating simple FACT - there are far more choices and consequences in DAO. This is FACT.
You of course may like "less choices", I wont deny it to you.

uh huh, yeah, 'fact'. despite the ample evidence i provided of a series of complex and consistent choices that contribute to nuanced, in-game outcomes with companions, instead of a handful of x choice y divergence kingmaker options. despite the pages and pages and pages of people pointing out signficant plot choices in da2 and the illusion of choice in dao.

people, including myself, have vomited words all over this thread with our cohesive arguments that enumerate and debate the perceived choices and consequences in both games. thus far, all i've seen you do is make blanket claims with no real thought to back it up.

so, by all means, make a list of dao and da2 and be thorough, because right now it just seems like you're not getting it, and you don't want to get it.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

ademska wrote...

"anders, meanwhile, has two potential endings (obviously we're excluding the ability to kill characters) that vary dramatically. on one end, he ends as a unified janders, a calm assimilation of justice

 
Killing innocent people is hardly called justice.

ademska wrote...
and anders at peace with who he is and what he's become, hopeful about the mage cause.  on the other end, he's bitter, regretful, and completely at war with himself, suffering blackouts and struggling to beat back the influence of vengeance, which is slowly taking him over. he sides against everything he believes in, and regrets it so deeply that he decides to kill himself.

Or he's bitter, regretful and completely at war with Justice. I don't know what game you play but the Anders I know never kill himself. It's always Bioware's Purple Marian Hawke that ended his life. MInd you, they're in love with each other.

ademska wrote...
edit: and, for what it's worth, these differences are readily apparent in all of anders' cutscenes and dialogue options.

He's upset if Marian Hawke didn't help him with the ingredients. He's happy if Marian help. This is Anders we are talking about. Not Justice. It doesn't matter how many different paths you see ( which I don't ). The only readily apparent in all Anders' cutscences is the end result. Grand Cleric Elthina and possibly Sebastian if Marian didn't bring him along + many other innocents lifes. That's who and what Anders is. Nothing else.

ademska wrote...
da2 expanded the gameplay mechanics, so it's able to explore that kind of choice-influenced character dichotomy."

Again I fail to see that. If that is what BioWare's intention, then they'  have to flesh out DA 2 companions a lot more. And one way dimensional interaction isn't very helpful. My dissapointed eyes and heart will never reach their feeling to understand who they really are. At the momemt they are all but just friends which I hardly know. 

ademska wrote...
furthermore

"the decision you make at da2's endgame, picking a side, is one of the biggest choice maneuvers the series has ever done, if not the biggest, and it's not because of any epilogue cards detailing the political rammifications of your action.

no, it's because literally half your party has the potential to betray you either way. it's also because, depending on every choice you made during the entire game -- your actions, who you kept close in your party, the way you treated
them -- these same party react completely differently. they may leave forever, they may leave and rejoin you, they may fight you to the death, or they might actually be persuaded to join you, because they trust you so much.

It became the biggest choices only if you invested and cared enough for companions and the political situation. ( Which I don't ).

And It quicky became silly once you get betrayed unreasonably by Or***o. Although Meredith reaction is very much predictable. Too bad. She could have been a good ally. 

You know what is the biggest choice I have ever made? Refusing Morrigan's Dark Ritual and The Ultimate Sacrifice for none other reason than personal motive. My Amber Cousland wasn't sacrifice herself to save the world. She sacrificed herself because of Alistair and because she had lost everything she hold dear in her life that her life doesn't matter anymore. The hard part was, it wasn't NPC Anders that struggle with himself ( which you so concern about in DA 2 ) but me myself because I want my Cousland to continue Dragon Age story and live happily ever after.

See the difference?

[Yrkoon]

ademska wrote...

xkg wrote...

"Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now."

that's just ******-poor marketing,

 Ahhh....No.  ******-poor marketing  is when you've got  a mature-rated game and you try to sell it by saying stuff  like:  " When you Press a but'un,  something Awesome happens!". 

What you're quoting there though, that's something different all together.   It's  what's known as   Blatantly False Advertising, or a LIE, as  regular  people would call it.    Now, normally this wouldn't be a big deal. And, in fact,  It wouldn't even be a relevant  talking point on a thread like this one... if not for the fact that  it happens to strike at the core of  the unusually prolific fan  vitriol against this game.   People dislike being lied to.  They get mad when very clear promises are made to them  and then broken right before their very eyes.    This is what causes gamers to come on here and  say that they disliked the game because  it didn't live up to their expectations.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 21 juillet 2011 - 10:07 .

[ademska]

@sacred_fantasy
yeah i'm not typing more crap out because you refuse to acknowledge that treating companions a certain way over the course of seven years yield just as much consequence as any choice result in dao, even if you don't like that focus in a game.

you admitted that don't care about the companions or the political situation, so i don't expect you to have actually thought about a character like anders as extensively as someone who liked him (or at least his writing), but go ahead and trust me when i say that every word you've just typed out is factually inaccurate. your hawke killed anders, bully for you but if hawke doesn't and you're on rival templar, he tells hawke he's going to kill himself. which you didn't know. clearly all you do know what you perceived in the game, whatever, but some of us have actually engaged in literary analysis of his character.

your entire post is a combination of personal opinions and gross misunderstanding and superficial interpretation of a character, so i'm not dealing with it, bro. read pages 5-7 if you want my actual rebuttal to you, because i really don't feel like writing it out again in the same damn thread oh my god

you don't like the game, you're not GONNA like the game because you don't WANT to, seacrest out


@yrkoon
uh, that's fine and i agree? i get why people are mad at the game. the point of this thread, however, is not soothing butt pains of disappointed fans, it's pointing out the hypocrisy of claiming da2's choices don't affect plot when dao is no better.

and it was actually an awesome thread until around page 10 or so.

Modifié par ademska, 21 juillet 2011 - 10:13 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

ademska wrote...

@sacred_fantasy
but go ahead and trust me when i say that every word you've just typed out is factually inaccurate. your hawke killed anders, bully for you but if hawke doesn't and you're on rival templar, he tells hawke he's going to kill himself. which you didn't know. clearly all you do know what you perceived in the game, whatever, but some of us have actually engaged in literary analysis of his character.

Oh I did played BioWare's Blue Garret Hawke who is more merciful than BioWare's Purple Marian Hawke. Garret Hawke let Anders live. He knew everything that come out of Anders' mouth after his inspirational speech. Did Anders kill himself? Go ahead and screen shot the moment that Anders kill himself as you claimed. He really need justice by his own hands. Talk about regret, justice and killing himself isn't going to bring back innocent lifes. He should had listen to Garret's diplomatic and compromised talks about not hating the templars . But NO. He went ahead with the plan secretly.

ademska wrote...
you don't like the game, you're not GONNA like the game because you don't WANT to, seacrest out

Correction. It's not that I don't want to.  I played the demo. I don't like it. I still paid $60 for my pre-order signature edition because I want to like the game. I struggle the pain not once but 5 times in order to like the game. But no matter how well you write DA 2, you cannot explain your own existence as Hawke.  Without a character how do you expect me to like the game? What in the world can any actor act without a character? BioWare want to play third person character. Fine. That's what I'm doing. But don't expect me to call Leandra as my mother or The companions as my friends. Because I am not Hawke.  

But you are right. This discussion is over.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 21 juillet 2011 - 10:50 .

[xkg]

ademska wrote...
so, by all means, make a list of dao and da2 and be thorough, because right now it just seems like you're not getting it, and you don't want to get it.

No lol.Like i said  YOU make DA2 list. My list with DAO choices is already here.
And if you don't want to (or can't - more likely) then why are we arguing.

[OdanUrr]

ademska wrote...

you're seeing those listed choices because the game's entire goddamn focus is life on a personal level.

Kudos for putting it so elegantly.

[tmp7704]

ademska wrote...

you're seeing those listed choices because the game's entire goddamn focus is life on a personal level. dao floats above the clouds, while da2 hovers in the streets. it's intentional.

That's --either intentionally or out of ignorance-- creating false dichotomy where it's not the case. DAO has both the "above the clouds" and "the streets" choices. These titles aren't equal, different alternatives -- instead one is offering just a subset of choices offered by the other.

[MeAndMySandvich]

tmp7704 wrote...

ademska wrote...

you're seeing those listed choices because the game's entire goddamn focus is life on a personal level. dao floats above the clouds, while da2 hovers in the streets. it's intentional.

That's --either intentionally or out of ignorance-- creating false dichotomy where it's not the case. DAO has both the "above the clouds" and "the streets" choices. These titles aren't equal, different alternatives -- instead one is offering just a subset of choices offered by the other.

No, man, everyone knows that if you set a game on a personal level you can't have any C&C. That's why there's no significant choice or consequence in Planescape: Torment or Witcher 1. Oh, wait...

[txgoldrush]

xkg wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

xkg wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

I can change alot in DAII, I can choose who lives and who dies, who can turn against me, whether Aveline can marry or not, whether Petrice lives or dies, whether Gamlen finds his daughter, and whether I become the mages champion or oppressor.

If you take out DAO's and DAO Awakening's ending cards, you will find that DAII actually shows more of the consquences of your actions than DAO and its expansion does.

There are too many choices in origins so I wont list all here but on top of my head (only important choices)

txgoldrush wrote...
I can change alot in DAII,
I can choose who lives and who dies,
whether Petrice lives or dies,

I can kill Zevran, Wynne, Leliana, Shale, Dog at Ostagar, leave Sten in his cage for certain death,
I can kill Loghain, Flemeth
I can kill Werewolves/Dalish
I can decide the fate of Conor/His mother

I can decide the fate of Jowan, if I let him free i can find him later defending refugees, or i can send him to the fade and later i can spare or execute him.

I can even choose to die MYSELF, or just let Alistair/Loghain sacrifice him self .
Of course I can perform Morrigan's Ritual and no one will die.

If I really want and manage to ****** off/kill all my companions I can be left with only Alistair in my party before the final battle.

txgoldrush wrote...
who can turn against me

Wynne, Leliana, Shale, Oghren, Zevran, Sten can turn against me.

txgoldrush wrote...
whether Aveline can marry or not

Yep, I can decide whether Alistair will marry Anora, ohhh I can even marry him/her myself
I can decide about Oghren - Felsi relationship

txgoldrush wrote...
whether Gamlen finds his daughter

How about Alistair and his sister Goldanna. Gamlen's daughter is a pure "cosmetic choice", Alistair quest has serious impact on the story.

txgoldrush wrote...
and whether I become the mages champion or oppressor.

I can become QUEEN/KING of Ferelden.

And mages - here I have even more choices than DA2.
First I can decide thier fate (tower) - if I let them live then later I can set (or not) the entire circle free (boon).
In DA2 siding with mages or not is really meaningless - in DAO it has real impact later (like Irving helping with Conor's quest)



Anyone ? feel free to give some more examples from DAO or counter those examples with DA2 choices.

I have Updated this list a little.

congrats on trying to argue a point I didn't make....my point was DAII has meaninful choice and consquence.

And you still have not countered that except for ending cards DAII shows you the consquence of your actions more than DAO does (and neither does it well).

The only mid game consquece that truly matters is whether the mages live or die in the Tower quest and how it impacts the Connor quest. The rest are artificial and shallow. The only consquences truly shown are who can be called up to be fodder in the final battle, and ending cards (and comparing DAO to say New Vegas, while New Vegas does have ending cards, choices have profound impacts on the gameplay well before the end, this is not the same in DAO).. While DAII's consquences are shallow, at least they remind me of what I did before, such as how I dealt with the blood mage in the brothel, or what I did with Fenyrial and they do it by either letter or appearance. In dealing with the Magister's son, the girl I rescued can show up if I killed the son. The only true choices that affect the main plot are at the end of both games (landsmeet and ritual in DAO, and the chantry bombing in DAII), just like every Bioware game. At least DAII gives you some outcomes on the small, side stuff. Nothing as deep as say The Witcher or Tactics ogre, but the consquences are there.

Not to mention that in DAII, who I bring in my party is a significant choice that can add ot take away options. DAO can't claim this. The only affect that party members have on scenes outside companion quests in DAO are crisis points and maybe some unique dialogue. In DAII, having a mage at the right time can allow for more options, while Fenris being in the party against Tevinter slavers limits choices. Try doing All The remains with Varric in the party and Gascand alive and see the result, or take Anders with you in Varrics personal quest in Act II (which alters the nature of the decision entirely and Varrics reaction to it), or take Merrill with you to the brother to confront that blood mage who possesses you. Not only that, you can have companions make decisions for you at certain points. Nevermind the Deep Roads moment in DAII where who you bring in the party affects things.

Oh, and regarding character development. DAII has far more options and far more development paths for characters than DAO does. Alistair and Leliana are the only Origin characters to have more than two development paths (excluding crisis points), whether you romance them or not, and whether you harden them are not. The rest of the cast either has two (Morrigan and Zervan) or just one (everyone else). In DAII however, all characters have a least two, with many having more. Merrill, Isabela, and Fenris have FOUR paths to take, five if you count special disaffection. Aveline has three (friendship, rivalry, relationship break but doesn't leave) and the rest have two. So DAII one ups DAO in the character development department as well.

Is DAII good at showing consquences? No....far to shallow. But DAO would be a lot worse if it wasn't for ending cards.

Hehehe, there is no way you can counter this list huh ? You know that.
Thread title says "... CHOICES AFFECTING PLOT" and you telling me about Aveline friendship ??? lol

Your answer is exactly how i expected it to be.
And not only me.

alex90c wrote...
I guarantee you, txgoldrush will find some way to make out the DA2 "choices" were better.

List your DA2 choices to counter this list or drop this BS already - your golden tongue wont fool anyone.

Did I say that character development options affect the plot? No I didn't. I said that they were much more options in developing characters in DAII than there is in DAO.

When it comes to PLOT, DAO and DAII are almost exactly the same in regards to choices affecting things. Only endgame choices matter.

And for side quest stuff, DAII actually shows you the consquences of your actions in game while DAO gives you ending cards.

[alex90c]

And for side quest stuff, DAII actually shows you the consquences of your actions in game while DAO gives you ending cards.

Consequences like "wow you found the remains of my wife heres 50 silver"?

[Addai]

ademska wrote...
you're seeing those listed choices because the game's entire goddamn focus is life on a personal level. dao floats above the clouds, while da2 hovers in the streets. it's intentional.

And Origins had your companions with their personal quests and character arcs.  There's no difference there, so it's a wash and the greater plot choices available in Origins- even if you were still moved along in linear fashion- put it ahead of DA2 on the question of choice and consequence.  Because DA2 was marketed to present more than Origins in the way of choice and consequence,  things you would actually see in-game, the lack is all the more glaring.