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The hypocritical criticism of choices not affecting DAII's plot......


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#476
FJVP

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txgoldrush wrote...

You couldn't really talk to companions whenever you want in past Bioware games either, other than that "we'll talk more later" crap. In most Bioware games, each character got three conversations and a small quest. While it fleshes them out, however, it makes all their interesting developments all in the past. DAII format is better, you learn more about chareacters during their quests AND by generally having them in the party. Not only that, they can alter scenes, opening and closing options. While you can't talk to them outside Questioning Beliefs and othe rmoments like a normal Bioware game, it is better than what we had before.

Its another unwarranted criticism stemmed from the fact that players are so used to formula that they are not used to the format change. And the designers did confirm that they had just as much dialogue as the DAO characters.


Kindly stop talking as if your opinion is a universal fact, it gets frustrating and annoying after a while.

#477
Sacred_Fantasy

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txgoldrush wrote...
Wrong.

If you want to talk about shallow characters, talk about the extremely overrated DAO cast, who are not only mostly talking codex entries, but come in the story WITH THE MOST INTERESTING DEVELOPMENT ABOUT THEM ALREADY DONE!!!! They barely even develop as characters outside maybe Allistair and Leliana...Zervan and Morrigan don't change unless they are romanced (but Zevran never truly changes). Not only that, except for Wynne and Shale, they are clones of every other Bioware character. At least only Merrill strongly resembles another Bioware character (Tali) in DAII.

HOWEVER, what they learn after the Act III companion quest is completely DIFFERENT whether they are friends or rivals (or the outcome of the quest itself). They're final battle speech is DIFFERENT whether they are rivals, friends, or romantic partners, as well who you side with.

Could character development be better? Yes. But DAII allows you much more character development options than other Bioware games in which outside maybe the dueteragonist, its romance, normal, or dead.



So you're saying Origins companions didn't learn anything? Sten was cold to me the first time I met him. He rarely wanted to talk. He even belittled me for being a grey warden. And he wouldn't approved most of my actions. But in the end. do you know what happen? He admitted he was wrong  that the grey wardens truly deserved their reputation as the legendary honorable warrior and that he was truly honored to be with me. So, I asked him, "Can you smile?"  He said, "I am now."  This is Sten that most players hate.  I don't have to mention the more popular companions like Alistair, Leliana and Morrigan. 

DA 2 companions speech although is completely different after ACT III, don't reflect how they change. Merril has the eluvian mirror that she's going to fix no matter what and that mean she'll continue to be as naive blood magic practiser as she was when both BioWare's Marian and Garret Hawke first met her. Isabella has her ship gifted by BioWare's Blue Garret Hawke. With her disappearance, she will most likely to continue travelling ( more likely pirating ) and having threesome with whoever she meet in her journey the way she was when BioWare's Hawke first met her. Both Fenris and Anders are now in serious big trouble ESPECIALLY  after they too are separated from Hawke. Fenris is now the most wanted person in Tervinter after *** spoiler *** killing **** cough** spoiler. Anders is the most wanted criminal by the chantry. With the Seeker and Leliana are hot in pursuit and the increasing Justice turn to Revenge thing, he's back to square one just like the person he was when Hawke first met him.  No one change in DA 2. Their different speeches in ACT III meant nothing. You can tell it because it was in the past. Not in the future as we experience with Origins companions. The worst of all, your Hawke is gone now. Not 10 years ago. But now. In present DA 2 time frame. So if you're Hawke, this give more reason why nothing from ACT I to ACT III meant anything. The entire goddamn DA 2's story mean nothing personal. It's all in Varric's head. Every single words, every single tears and blood that I shed  and every single sh*t  accomplishment I've archived is all in Varric's head. Still you call this as Character development? You really can't see this, do you? Wake up. Varric has finished telling his story. Now move on to DA 3.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 23 juillet 2011 - 02:53 .


#478
Yrkoon

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FJVP wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

However, the characters in other Bioware games develop much better than the ones in DAO, especially Jade Empire.


This is up to opinion, and I haven't played enough BW games to make a solid counter-argument.

I have.  And I can confidently say he's full of ka-ka.  DA:O  npcs are as deep and well delveloped as npcs from any bioware game.   And certainly  far more well developed than  any companion in   KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights,  Shadows of undrentide, Hordes of the underdark,  BG2 or BG1,  And oh yeah... DA2.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 juillet 2011 - 03:53 .


#479
Addai

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txgoldrush wrote...

And the designers did confirm that they had just as much dialogue as the DAO characters.

Quote please.

DA2 has less than half the word count of Origins.

Methinks you're talking out your arse again.  Are you on EA's payroll, by any chance?  Because you seem to have taken this on as a full-time job.

#480
HawkeN7x

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txgoldrush wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Just because you are focused on an objective doesn't mean you can neglect character development or skimp on it.


This part I agree with, so why did they skimp on it in DA2?

I really hope they go back at least partially being able to talk to companions whenever we want. Keep the quest/act related ones sure but just not what we had in Da2. (I also vote no to daa style companion conversation) But that's just me...I love to talk, love laundry lists of important and not so important things but all that now is big ticket items. $$$$Image IPB$$$$


You couldn't really talk to companions whenever you want in past Bioware games either, other than that "we'll talk more later" crap. In most Bioware games, each character got three conversations and a small quest. While it fleshes them out, however, it makes all their interesting developments all in the past. DAII format is better, you learn more about chareacters during their quests AND by generally having them in the party. Not only that, they can alter scenes, opening and closing options. While you can't talk to them outside Questioning Beliefs and othe rmoments like a normal Bioware game, it is better than what we had before.

Its another unwarranted criticism stemmed from the fact that players are so used to formula that they are not used to the format change. And the designers did confirm that they had just as much dialogue as the DAO characters.


100% agreed with everything you said, man. sad that so many feel the need to bash a good game and a reasonable post whenever they see one.

#481
Yrkoon

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Yeah, real sad... people shouldn't be allowed to criticize a rushed turd, right?

You know what I think is even more sad? People who have never played DA:O yet somehow manage to come on here and try to argue that DA2 is better. Begs the obvious question: How  would they know?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 juillet 2011 - 09:08 .


#482
alex90c

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Addai67 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

And the designers did confirm that they had just as much dialogue as the DAO characters.

Quote please.

DA2 has less than half the word count of Origins.

Methinks you're talking out your arse again.  Are you on EA's payroll, by any chance?  Because you seem to have taken this on as a full-time job.


I think what txgoldrush is sayin is true, the problem is of course it's all so spread out for the fact to be meaningless. It's like Origins giving you half the dialogue at the beginning and then the characters telling you the second half pre-final battle.

#483
Yrkoon

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alex90c wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

And the designers did confirm that they had just as much dialogue as the DAO characters.

Quote please.

DA2 has less than half the word count of Origins.

Methinks you're talking out your arse again.  Are you on EA's payroll, by any chance?  Because you seem to have taken this on as a full-time job.


I think what txgoldrush is sayin is true,

No.  It's not.  No matter how one spins it.    It's a flat out FALSE claim that he made up.     There's no such developer confirmation for it either.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 juillet 2011 - 09:18 .


#484
xkg

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Yrkoon wrote...

Yeah, real sad... people shouldn't be allowed to criticize a rushed turd, right?

You know what I think is even more sad? People who have never played DA:O yet somehow manage to come on here and try to argue that DA2 is better. Begs the obvious question: How  would they know?


hehe, this HawkeN7x  is goldrush's second account :)  So don't bother, he always appears when goldrush arguments are proved to be BS.

#485
xkg

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Addai67 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

And the designers did confirm that they had just as much dialogue as the DAO characters.

Quote please.

DA2 has less than half the word count of Origins.

Methinks you're talking out your arse again.  Are you on EA's payroll, by any chance?  Because you seem to have taken this on as a full-time job.


Thx for this link. Lets see

Cinematics   DA 1000  DA2 2500
Spoken lines   DA 56k   DA2 38k
Words count  DA 1000k   DA2  400k

Yeah it is clear - DA serie is turning into interactive movie,
less dialogs,
less words ,
more than twice cinematics.


txgoldrush wrote...

And the designers did confirm that they had just as much dialogue as the DAO characters.

Yes, like Addai67 said - give us some quotes, links or anything or it's just another of your BS talks without any backup.

This is getting realy ridiculous - every your post is full of lies and your opinions stated as facts.
And as always - when asked for any backup/proof you got nothing.


But ok let's play your game for a while.
I will say this :

Devs confirmed that DA2 plot and story is much cheaper than that of DAO and the entire game is shallow beyond any possible description.

And now, because it is "in your style" discussion, I dont need any proofs so be my guest and prove me wrong.

Modifié par xkg, 23 juillet 2011 - 01:14 .


#486
Morroian

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xkg wrote...

Thx for this link. Lets see

Cinematics   DA 1000  DA2 2500
Spoken lines   DA 56k   DA2 38k
Words count  DA 1000k   DA2  400k

Yeah it is clear - DA serie is turning into interactive movie,
less dialogs,
less words ,
more than twice cinematics.

OK now average that per character per hour of game time.

xkg wrote...

This is getting realy ridiculous - every your post is full of lies and your opinions stated as facts. 
And as always - when asked for any backup/proof you got nothing.

Hmm delicious irony.

Modifié par Morroian, 23 juillet 2011 - 01:46 .


#487
xkg

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Morroian wrote...

xkg wrote...

Thx for this link. Lets see

Cinematics   DA 1000  DA2 2500
Spoken lines   DA 56k   DA2 38k
Words count  DA 1000k   DA2  400k

Yeah it is clear - DA serie is turning into interactive movie,
less dialogs,
less words ,
more than twice cinematics.


OK now average that per character per hour of game time.


Why should I ? It is you who is trying to make some point here - so you do it and show me the results.

#488
xkg

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Morroian wrote...

xkg wrote...

This is getting realy ridiculous - every your post is full of lies and your opinions stated as facts. 
And as always - when asked for any backup/proof you got nothing.

Hmm delicious irony.


Ha ah yes. You're not any better than OP when it comes to "talking BS". Short memory huh ?

http://social.biowar...4721/23#7760407

#489
Morroian

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The point is obvious, if you don't want to back up your assertion fine.

#490
xkg

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Morroian wrote...

The point is obvious, if you don't want to back up your assertion fine.


Becuase your POINTS are never clear to me - aside form posting something for sake of posting something - so I dont care.
So my point still stand - if you don't wont to prove me wrong, thats fine.

But anyway - my point was "GAME IS BEING CLOSER AND CLOSER TO INTERACTIVE MOVIE"

xkg wrote...
Yeah it is clear - DA serie is turning into interactive movie,

So now if you have some secret formulas to math this in favour of your UNKNOWN TO ME point :

DAO 1000 cinemtics / 60 hours of gameplay 
DA2 2500 cinematics / 40 hours of gameplay       (= much more cinematics per hour)
or maybe
DAO 1000 cinemtics / 1000 characters
DA2 2500 cinematics / 500 characters      (= much more cinematics per character)

please don't hesitate and show me the results and show me how wrong I am about that.

I know that you can't. Just another pointless post from you.

Modifié par xkg, 23 juillet 2011 - 02:38 .


#491
Il Divo

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I wonder if I'm alone in thinking that Origins had Bioware's best cast of characters. I thought they were all varied, interesting, and sympathetic.

#492
Slayer299

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Nope, you're definitely not alone in that. I totally agree with you about them.

#493
txgoldrush

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Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
Wrong.

If you want to talk about shallow characters, talk about the extremely overrated DAO cast, who are not only mostly talking codex entries, but come in the story WITH THE MOST INTERESTING DEVELOPMENT ABOUT THEM ALREADY DONE!!!! They barely even develop as characters outside maybe Allistair and Leliana...Zervan and Morrigan don't change unless they are romanced (but Zevran never truly changes). Not only that, except for Wynne and Shale, they are clones of every other Bioware character. At least only Merrill strongly resembles another Bioware character (Tali) in DAII.

HOWEVER, what they learn after the Act III companion quest is completely DIFFERENT whether they are friends or rivals (or the outcome of the quest itself). They're final battle speech is DIFFERENT whether they are rivals, friends, or romantic partners, as well who you side with.

Could character development be better? Yes. But DAII allows you much more character development options than other Bioware games in which outside maybe the dueteragonist, its romance, normal, or dead.



So you're saying Origins companions didn't learn anything? Sten was cold to me the first time I met him. He rarely wanted to talk. He even belittled me for being a grey warden. And he wouldn't approved most of my actions. But in the end. do you know what happen? He admitted he was wrong  that the grey wardens truly deserved their reputation as the legendary honorable warrior and that he was truly honored to be with me. So, I asked him, "Can you smile?"  He said, "I am now."  This is Sten that most players hate.  I don't have to mention the more popular companions like Alistair, Leliana and Morrigan. 

DA 2 companions speech although is completely different after ACT III, don't reflect how they change. Merril has the eluvian mirror that she's going to fix no matter what and that mean she'll continue to be as naive blood magic practiser as she was when both BioWare's Marian and Garret Hawke first met her. Isabella has her ship gifted by BioWare's Blue Garret Hawke. With her disappearance, she will most likely to continue travelling ( more likely pirating ) and having threesome with whoever she meet in her journey the way she was when BioWare's Hawke first met her. Both Fenris and Anders are now in serious big trouble ESPECIALLY  after they too are separated from Hawke. Fenris is now the most wanted person in Tervinter after *** spoiler *** killing **** cough** spoiler. Anders is the most wanted criminal by the chantry. With the Seeker and Leliana are hot in pursuit and the increasing Justice turn to Revenge thing, he's back to square one just like the person he was when Hawke first met him.  No one change in DA 2. Their different speeches in ACT III meant nothing. You can tell it because it was in the past. Not in the future as we experience with Origins companions. The worst of all, your Hawke is gone now. Not 10 years ago. But now. In present DA 2 time frame. So if you're Hawke, this give more reason why nothing from ACT I to ACT III meant anything. The entire goddamn DA 2's story mean nothing personal. It's all in Varric's head. Every single words, every single tears and blood that I shed  and every single sh*t  accomplishment I've archived is all in Varric's head. Still you call this as Character development? You really can't see this, do you? Wake up. Varric has finished telling his story. Now move on to DA 3.


Wrong

Merrill SHATTERS her mirror if you go the rivalry route. She does not on the friendship path. On the rivary path, she realizes that she was the one to blame for what happened. In the friendship path, she learns however that not everyone wants to be saved.

On the friendship path Isabella, while may go back to pirating, however finds true friends. On the romance path, she finds that she was afriad to love and so she pushed everyone away. On the rival path, she learns that her actions do have consquences.

Fenris can even come to respect some mages, especially if Hawke is a mage.

And you keep ignore evidence on the contrary about Anders from another poster here....

#494
Guest_Puddi III_*

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xkg wrote...

please don't hesitate and show me the results and show me how wrong I am about that.

I know that you can't. Just another pointless post from you.


Because of course it's self evident that cinematics are teh ebil and bane on all gaming. :whistle:

Morroian's point was about the word count and spoken lines versus average playtime, not cinematics. Granted if the average is indeed 60 vs 40 hours as opposed the DA2 having less than half as much words and lines, I suppose you have minute point.

#495
txgoldrush

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Il Divo wrote...

I wonder if I'm alone in thinking that Origins had Bioware's best cast of characters. I thought they were all varied, interesting, and sympathetic.


Not varied enough from other bioware characters....

Lets see, Allistair, a Carth like character. Your common Bioware nuetral good dueteragonist.

Leliana....kind of like Dawn Star and good Bastila. A spiritual goody goody girl. And she is my fave character of the game, however, that doesn't mean she isn't a clone with a religious angle.

Morrigan...Viconia

Zevran...the elven HK47, the comic relief assassin

Ogren...just a little more mature Black Whirlwind, your stereotypical dwarf. No where near Varric or Zoltan (The Witcher) level.

Sten - just like Sagacious Zu, the silent warrior who opens up about his path as he gains more respect for the player.

Only Wynne and Shale are more orginal characters.

Face it, like the plot structure, the characters follow Bioware formula strongly as well.

ME2's and DA2's cast are a welcome change...look at Varric, reminds me of no one on Bioware's roster.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 23 juillet 2011 - 06:51 .


#496
txgoldrush

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Addai67 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

And the designers did confirm that they had just as much dialogue as the DAO characters.

Quote please.

DA2 has less than half the word count of Origins.

Methinks you're talking out your arse again.  Are you on EA's payroll, by any chance?  Because you seem to have taken this on as a full-time job.


http://social.biowar...08275/2#6510612

From David Gaider himself.....DA2 have almost as much dialogue as DAO characters, except for Allister and Morrigan.

#497
Il Divo

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txgoldrush wrote...

Not varied enough from other bioware characters....




Lets see, Allistair, a Carth like character. Your common Bioware nuetral good dueteragonist.


Alistair is nothing like Carth, aside from being the male lead. Carth spends his entire time agonizing over betrayal/learning to trust others again.
 
Alistair is a character whose importance to the plot supercedes your own (he plays a role in uniting Fereldan). Unlike Carth, he doesn't spend the entire game agonizing over one plot point (betrayal). Alistair is under confident, preferring to give your character the starring role, but he spends a great deal of time focused on the mission as well, and explains what being a Grey Warden means. Every single companion conversation with Carth refers back to the revenge plotline.

Leliana....kind of like Dawn Star and good Bastila. A spiritual goody goody girl. And she is my fave character of the game, however, that doesn't mean she isn't a clone with a religious angle.


Besides Leliana having a dark past associated with her, which has partially influenced her development as a character. Dawn Star/Bastila are goody goody girls, the kind afraid to do any kind of wrong. Leliana was an assassin forced into unusual circumstances. And unlike Bastila/Dawn Star, she is not preachy, but rather talks about how much joy she obtains from her faith in the Maker. Her status as a Bard was also an interesting spin.  

Zevran...the elven HK47, the comic relief assassin


With a completely different style attached to him. HK-47 is essentially pure evil. "Let me kill as many people as possible". Zevran may also be a witty assassin, but his backstory presents an entirely different perspective on the character. His personality is more than "I like killing people". He has a history and you have the ability to explore that history. Ex: how he became a Crow, life as an Elf, etc.

Ogren...just a little more mature Black Whirlwind, you stereotypical dwarf. No where near Varric or Zoltan (The Witcher) level.


This is why Oghren is the weakest member of the cast.

Sten - just like Sagacious Zu, the silent warrior who opens up about his path as he gains more respect for the player.


Zu's character and Sten's have different perspectives. Their similarities begin and end with "silent", which still doesn't capture either one, as Sten's character is very different from Zu's in terms of history, personality, and beliefs.

Face it, like the plot structure, the characters follow Bioware formula strongly as well.


Dragon Age 2 follows the Bioware plot structure. The difference is that you don't have a central focus for the story, beyond Hawke's family, who all are removed in Act II.

ME2's and DA2's cast are a welcome change...look at Varric, reminds me of no one on Bioware's roster.

 
Sky from Jade Empire. Varric is simply unlike any stereotypical dwarf seen before. It doesn't make his character concept any less cliche. He's the loveable rogue done ad infinitum.

Modifié par Il Divo, 23 juillet 2011 - 06:59 .


#498
csfteeeer

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Il Divo wrote...

I wonder if I'm alone in thinking that Origins had Bioware's best cast of characters. I thought they were all varied, interesting, and sympathetic.


Nope, my friend, you're not the only one, i think that way, and a lot of people seem to think that way too, there is a Poll Here
the ME2 characters are winning, followed closely by DAO's, and with a FAR away third spot, DA2's.

#499
Addai

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txgoldrush wrote...
From David Gaider himself.....DA2 have almost as much dialogue as DAO characters, except for Allister and Morrigan.

With less than half the word count of Origins, that "almost" must represent a pretty big gap.

#500
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The amount of dialog had with companions is not the same number as the amount of dialog in the game.