583 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

csfteeeer wrote...

Nope, my friend, you're not the only one, i think that way, and a lot of people seem to think that way too, there is a Poll Here
the ME2 characters are winning, followed closely by DAO's, and with a FAR away third spot, DA2's.

It definitely is a tough call. Mordin, Thane, and Legion were great fun, but then I just think about all the Morrigan-Alistair banter. It's close, but Origins narrowly wins it for me.

Edit: One thing that I think works in favor of Origins (compared to other Bioware products) is that there isn't a single character I can really say that I really dislike. KotOR, DA2, ME2, etc, all have interesting characters, but there's always a few that I find annoying (Mission, Juhani, Anders, and Jacob, as examples).

My least favorite Origins character is Oghren, but even there I don't actively dislike him, I simply think he's overshadowed by other, better personalities.

Modifié par Il Divo, 23 juillet 2011 - 07:30 .

[Brockololly]

Filament wrote...

The amount of dialog had with companions is not the same number as the amount of dialog in the game.

Right- but given the Friendship/Rivalry mechanics its likely less dialogue the player could see in one playthrough though too, compared to Origins. So while overall, the amount of companion dialogue may be similar (outside of Alistair and Morrigan) its probably less that the player would be able to access in one run.

Yet, DA2 seemed to lack many of the second tier type NPCs which were common in Origins. People like Anora, Duncan, Harrowmont/Behlen, Zathrian, Howe, Flemeth, Shianni and so forth. And with many of those characters you could ask them tons of player initiated questions outside of any more scripted dialogue scenes they had. Whereas in DA2, you not only rarely got any player initiated questioning for dialogue, but most of the second tier type NPCs only had dialogue during specific cutscenes.

Thats really one of my bigger issues with DA2- that the non companion characters were mostly terribly underdeveloped, likely due to them not having much dialogue.

Modifié par Brockololly, 23 juillet 2011 - 07:39 .

[FJVP]

Filament wrote...

The amount of dialog had with companions is not the same number as the amount of dialog in the game.

Considering that most of DA2's plot is composed of dialogue with companions I doubt that it makes a difference in this case.

[xkg]

Filament wrote...
 avoiding admitting that the first complaint was wrong.

You wont see that anytime soon.
Why ?

because "6/8 companions havin ALMOST as much dialogue"
is faar far away from simply saying "they all have as much dialogue"

at least in my book.
So OP twisting original D.Gaiders words in favour of his arguments doesn't work for me. Maybe for you, but that is not my concern.

[Fallstar]

Brockololly wrote...

Filament wrote...

The amount of dialog had with companions is not the same number as the amount of dialog in the game.

Right- but given the Friendship/Rivalry mechanics its likely less dialogue the player could see in one playthrough though too, compared to Origins. So while overall, the amount of companion dialogue may be similar (outside of Alistair and Morrigan) its probably less that the player would be able to access in one run.

Yet, DA2 seemed to lack many of the second tier type NPCs which were common in Origins. People like Anora, Duncan, Harrowmont/Behlen, Zathrian, Howe, Flemeth, Shianni and so forth. And with many of those characters you could ask them tons of player initiated questions outside of any more scripted dialogue scenes they had. Whereas in DA2, you not only rarely got any player initiated questioning for dialogue, but most of the second tier type NPCs only had dialogue during specific cutscenes.

Thats really one of my bigger issues with DA2- that the non companion characters were mostly terribly underdeveloped, likely due to them not having much dialogue.

Don't forget Lanaya. She had a lot of optional dialogue, and was one of the most well developed secondary characters, to the point where if you got to know her, then stole from the Dalish, she'd stop talking to you and say something like "I thought you were our friend". I couldn't agree more about the better developed NPC's in Origins, it really was an indication of the quality and polish of Origins in comparison with DA:2. Can you name any non companion characters in DA:2 that are anywhere near as deep and complex as Zathrian, Bhelen and (depending on whether you recruit him) Loghain?

[Fallstar]

Filament wrote...

I was addressing the complaint that DA2's companions have less dialog than DAO's companions. It does seem to mean as a consequence that DA2 has a higher proportion of companion dialog to NPC dialog than DAO, but complaining about that reeks of shifting the goalposts and avoiding admitting that the first complaint was wrong.

I'm pretty sure that most companions in Origins had  more dialogue than those in DA:2, particularly Zevran when you get him talking about his adventures.

[FJVP]

Filament wrote...

I was addressing the complaint that DA2's companions have less dialog than DAO's companions. It does seem to mean as a consequence that DA2 has a higher proportion of companion dialog to NPC dialog than DAO, but complaining about that reeks of shifting the goalposts and avoiding admitting that the first complaint was wrong.

No comments on that except that I don't mind the amount of dialogue as long as it is interesting.

Modifié par FJVP, 23 juillet 2011 - 08:47 .

[Pasquale1234]

DuskWarden wrote...

Don't forget Lanaya. She had a lot of optional dialogue, and was one of the most well developed secondary characters, to the point where if you got to know her, then stole from the Dalish, she'd stop talking to you and say something like "I thought you were our friend". I couldn't agree more about the better developed NPC's in Origins, it really was an indication of the quality and polish of Origins in comparison with DA:2. Can you name any non companion characters in DA:2 that are anywhere near as deep and complex as Zathrian, Bhelen and (depending on whether you recruit him) Loghain?

I thought some of the DA2 NPCs were very well developed.

Viscount.... Saemus.... Petrice.... Arishok....Marethari....Cullen.... Bartrand...  to name a few.

[txgoldrush]

Il Divo wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Not varied enough from other bioware characters....

Lets see, Allistair, a Carth like character. Your common Bioware nuetral good dueteragonist.

a) Alistair is nothing like Carth, aside from being the male lead. Carth spends his entire time agonizing over betrayal/learning to trust others again.
 
Alistair is a character whose importance to the plot supercedes your own (he plays a role in uniting Fereldan). Unlike Carth, he doesn't spend the entire game agonizing over one plot point (betrayal). Alistair is under confident, preferring to give your character the starring role, but he spends a great deal of time focused on the mission as well, and explains what being a Grey Warden means. Every single companion conversation with Carth refers back to the revenge plotline.

Leliana....kind of like Dawn Star and good Bastila. A spiritual goody goody girl. And she is my fave character of the game, however, that doesn't mean she isn't a clone with a religious angle.

Besides Leliana having a dark past associated with her, which has partially influenced her development as a character. Dawn Star/Bastila are goody goody girls, the kind afraid to do any kind of wrong. Leliana was an assassin forced into unusual circumstances. And unlike Bastila/Dawn Star, she is not preachy, but rather talks about how much joy she obtains from her faith in the Maker. Her status as a Bard was also an interesting spin.  

Zevran...the elven HK47, the comic relief assassin

c) With a completely different style attached to him. HK-47 is essentially pure evil. "Let me kill as many people as possible". Zevran may also be a witty assassin, but his backstory presents an entirely different perspective on the character. His personality is more than "I like killing people". He has a history and you have the ability to explore that history. Ex: how he became a Crow, life as an Elf, etc.

Ogren...just a little more mature Black Whirlwind, you stereotypical dwarf. No where near Varric or Zoltan (The Witcher) level.

This is why Oghren is the weakest member of the cast.

Sten - just like Sagacious Zu, the silent warrior who opens up about his path as he gains more respect for the player.

d) Zu's character and Sten's have different perspectives. Their similarities begin and end with "silent", which still doesn't capture either one, as Sten's character is very different from Zu's in terms of history, personality, and beliefs.

Face it, like the plot structure, the characters follow Bioware formula strongly as well.

e) Dragon Age 2 follows the Bioware plot structure. The difference is that you don't have a central focus for the story, beyond Hawke's family, who all are removed in Act II.

ME2's and DA2's cast are a welcome change...look at Varric, reminds me of no one on Bioware's roster.

 
f) Sky from Jade Empire. Varric is simply unlike any stereotypical dwarf seen before. It doesn't make his character concept any less cliche. He's the loveable rogue done ad infinitum.

a) Still cannot deny that he is in the same vain as Kaiden and Carth. You cannot say the same for someone like Jacob or Varric, who were atypical duetragonists for Bioware games.

An Alister loses focus on the mission if you recruit Loghain.

Other than backstory, she is very similiar to Dawn Star and Bastila, and Dawn Star really wasn't that preachy. Also like Bastila and Dawn Star....she has two alternate development paths, one darker than the other.

c) Other than backstory and maybe some views (and Zevran's romance arc), whats the difference? They both enjoy killing people. Really the KOTOR II version of HK47 is a far better character than Zevran, and his decision in the driod factory affects the ending.

d) Just because they have different backstories doesn't mean they aren't similiar Bioware archtypes.

e) And what Bioware game uses a frame story with a biographical style narrative over a time span other than DAII? While the element of choice and consquence is pretty much the same as most Bioware games (aka weak), the plot structure is formula breaking. Contrast that with DAO, which follos formula after the Origin stories.

And wrong, DAII has a central story and really the family is not that important other than to show Kirkwall's conflict. The central story (of the inside frame) is how Hawke has to deal with a city spiralling into madness. The central story of the outside frame is how Cassandra learns that Hawke is not to blame for what happened.

f) No, far from it. Varric is a lovable rogue, yes, but as a Bioware character, he is far more unique. Is he a role playing cliche, yes, but is he a Bioware one? No. He is far from a stereotypical dwarf as well. The only character that is really close to another Bioware character in personality is really Merrill and maybe Fenris.

Really, DAII's cast is more like an Obsidian cast than a Bioware one.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 23 juillet 2011 - 09:29 .

[txgoldrush]

DuskWarden wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Filament wrote...

The amount of dialog had with companions is not the same number as the amount of dialog in the game.

Right- but given the Friendship/Rivalry mechanics its likely less dialogue the player could see in one playthrough though too, compared to Origins. So while overall, the amount of companion dialogue may be similar (outside of Alistair and Morrigan) its probably less that the player would be able to access in one run.

Yet, DA2 seemed to lack many of the second tier type NPCs which were common in Origins. People like Anora, Duncan, Harrowmont/Behlen, Zathrian, Howe, Flemeth, Shianni and so forth. And with many of those characters you could ask them tons of player initiated questions outside of any more scripted dialogue scenes they had. Whereas in DA2, you not only rarely got any player initiated questioning for dialogue, but most of the second tier type NPCs only had dialogue during specific cutscenes.

Thats really one of my bigger issues with DA2- that the non companion characters were mostly terribly underdeveloped, likely due to them not having much dialogue.

Don't forget Lanaya. She had a lot of optional dialogue, and was one of the most well developed secondary characters, to the point where if you got to know her, then stole from the Dalish, she'd stop talking to you and say something like "I thought you were our friend". I couldn't agree more about the better developed NPC's in Origins, it really was an indication of the quality and polish of Origins in comparison with DA:2. Can you name any non companion characters in DA:2 that are anywhere near as deep and complex as Zathrian, Bhelen and (depending on whether you recruit him) Loghain?

The Grand Cleric, the Arishok, Patrice, the Keeper, the Viscount (His reaction to his son's death is the not only the most underrated scene in DAII, its a THEME DEFINING one.), Gamlen, Fenryial, and Cullen is deeper and plays a more defining role in DAII than he was in DAO.

Bhelen is far from deep. In fact, the choice between him and Harrowmont is a flop because you don't know their beliefs and their plans. All you know is Bhelen is a thug if you played the Dwarf Noble.

[Il Divo]

txgoldrush wrote...

a) Still cannot deny that he is in the same vain as Kaiden and Carth. You cannot say the same for someone like Jacob or Varric, who were atypical duetragonists for Bioware games.

I just did. Their similarities begin and end with "male lead". Jacob was atypical in that he was the lifeless "every man", which didn't quite work. There's a reason why he tends to rank low on most ME2 squad votes. You have not demonstrated how Alistair is Carth. The character has a completely different personality and motivation throughout the story.

An Alister loses focus on the mission if you recruit Loghain.

Wait, so Alistair is not focused in the last 2-3 hours of gameplay, because he refuses to cooperate with the central villain of our story? So where did the last 40+ hours of gameplay go, where he was completely on board with killing darkspawn?  

Other than backstory, she is very similiar to Dawn Star and Bastila, and Dawn Star really wasn't that preachy. Also like Bastila and Dawn Star....she has two alternate development paths, one darker than the other.

Dawn Star was plenty preachy in conversation if you were closed fist, or performed evil actions around her. Leliana admittedly would also do the latter, but in conversation she was not quite so focused on lecturing you about good vs. evil (which Origins thankfully avoided), but on explaining why she finds belief in the Maker so beautiful.  

I also don't see the problem with the development paths. This is actually something that is enjoyable to do, despite being a Bioware cliche. Influencing your companions is another example of being able to make decisions in the storyline, one which I enjoy.

c) Other than backstory and maybe some views (and Zevran's romance arc), whats the difference? They both enjoy killing people. Really the KOTOR II version of HK47 is a far better character than Zevran, and his decision in the driod factory affects the ending.

You're basically taking a single trait and claiming that it encompasses the entire character. HK's character, awesome as he is, begins and ends with "kill". That's the summation of his character. Now, why is Zevran different? Again, details. He enjoys killing, like HK. But that's really it. He's not a sadistic maniac and the style of conversation is completely different. Most of HK's conversations do tend to revolve around wanting to kill everything.  

Also, mods are not applicable. In KotOR 2, nothing comes of the Droid Factory without the Restoration Project. Plus, that's Obsidian. Your argument was that Zevran was simply a Bioware archetype.

d) Just because they have different backstories doesn't mean they aren't similiar Bioware archtypes.

Again, similarities begin and end with "silent" or "reserved" or any other synonym. The role that each character plays in the story as well as their motivation is completely different. Zu is a former Lotus Assassin who is disenchanted with the group when ordered to kill a child, despite their attempted brainwashing. He is now trying to aid the PC by killing his former brothers.

Sten is a Qunari warrior with a philosophical code around which he bases his entire existence. On top of that, Sten's conversation style is different from every other Bioware companion, hence the difficulty in getting him to open up. Sagacious Zu is the typical Bioware character. Is he meant to be portrayed as silent/contemplative? Yes, but in reality he's about as open to conversation as Dawn Star, or any other character.

e) And what Bioware game uses a frame story with a biographical style narrative over a time span other than DAII? While the element of choice and consquence is pretty much the same as most Bioware games (aka weak), the plot structure is formula breaking. Contrast that with DAO, which follos formula after the Origin stories.

The plot structure is exactly the same, it just breaks everything into smaller pieces.

Origins:

Introduction-->Ostagar-->Choose your own Mission-->Ending

DA2:

Introduction-->Kirkwall-->Choose your own mission-->Deep Roads

x 3, for each individual act.

Mass Effect 2 had the same structure. It doesn't really change the formula, only breaks it into smaller parts. What DA2 does right is that each "choose your own mission" is actually relevant to the end goal, unlike Origins and Mass Effect 2.  

f) No, far from it. Varric is a lovable rogue, yes, but as a Bioware character, he is far more unique. Is he a role playing cliche, yes, but is he a Bioware one? No. He is far from a stereotypical dwarf as well. The only character that is really close to another Bioware character in personality is really Merrill and maybe Fenris.

Yes, he is a Bioware cliche. He is essentially Sky from Jade Empire, who is also a role-playing cliche. He is no more unique than the credit you seem to give Leliana or Zevran.

Modifié par Il Divo, 24 juillet 2011 - 12:23 .

[FieryDove]

Il Divo wrote...

<snip>
Yes, he is a Bioware cliche. He is essentially Sky from Jade Empire, who is also a role-playing cliche. He is no more unique than the credit you seem to give Leliana or Zevran.

I agree with everything you said.

[Il Divo]

FieryDove wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

<snip>
Yes, he is a Bioware cliche. He is essentially Sky from Jade Empire, who is also a role-playing cliche. He is no more unique than the credit you seem to give Leliana or Zevran.

I agree with everything you said.

Support is always appreciated.

[FJVP]

txgoldrush wrote...

The Grand Cleric, the Arishok, Patrice, the Keeper, the Viscount (His reaction to his son's death is the not only the most underrated scene in DAII, its a THEME DEFINING one.), Gamlen, Fenryial, and Cullen is deeper and plays a more defining role in DAII than he was in DAO.

Bhelen is far from deep. In fact, the choice between him and Harrowmont is a flop because you don't know their beliefs and their plans. All you know is Bhelen is a thug if you played the Dwarf Noble.

Of the ones you listed only Petrice and the Arishok are actually developed "more", the rest of them are just plot devices treated in the same way as Leandra:  "Here, go do this and I shall reward you when you return, after that we shall never speak again until my moment to move on with the plot comes". And even then both Mrs. "I am protected by plot shield" and Mr. Horny have no more depth than Lanaya,  Zathrian, the Lady of the Forest, Irving, Greagoir, Kaitlyn, Eamon, Connor, etc.

Modifié par FJVP, 24 juillet 2011 - 01:24 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

txgoldrush wrote...
Merrill SHATTERS her mirror if you go the rivalry route. She does not on the friendship path. On the rivary path, she realizes that she was the one to blame for what happened. In the friendship path, she learns however that not everyone wants to be saved.

She's a naive blood magic user who thinks she can control the demon despite everything she saw from A to Z.  She obsessed about the long lost artifact that belong to her clans ( namely eluvian mrrior ) since Origins to DA 2. 
She is casted by her clans because of this. She's messy. Her house had holes with squirrel ( or was it, rat? I couldn't remember ) She had a library and doing a lot of research. Her knowledge of elven history is impressive. BioWare's Garret Hawke learn a lot from this. She also recount just one or two dialogue lines about my deceased Mahariel but enough to bring nostalgia for me . Despite of this, She is still a shallow character.Period. She has gone to the corner of winds together with the rest of the companions. Or she stayed  with BioWare's Hawke and vanished into thin air by the time DA 2 begins ( Cassandra interogated Varric ). Therefore, the rivalry/friendship effect is meaningless. The person who's supposed to feel such impact on friendship/rivalry ( namely me myself and not the cyborg emotionless dumbed down BioWare's scripted Artificial Intelligence who try so hard to be a person that cannot talk properly, called Garret or Marian Hawke.  ) is nowhere to be found.

txgoldrush wrote...
On the friendship path Isabella, while may go back to pirating, however finds true friends.

Oh, She found her true friends before. Me and Leliana in The Pearl, Denerim, Ferelden. ( I think she's would had threesome with Zevran too if I bring Zevran along. I can't remember already... although it's surprise me that she still interested with Zevran in DA 2. ) Yeap. She still the same old Isabella. Not necessary a bad character. I do like her.

txgoldrush wrote...
On the romance path, she finds that she was afriad to love and so she pushed everyone away. On the rival path, she learns that her actions do have consquences.

She's a widow. A pirate captain. She can backstabs anyone for her own goal but it's fully expected from a rogue pirate. A drunken sex  icons with the golden heart. She belong to the sea. It's in her blood. That's all. Nothing else. Nothing on romance/friendship/rivalry can change that. She's a shallow character that never change.

txgoldrush wrote...
Fenris can even come to respect some mages, especially if Hawke is a mage.

Hawke is BioWare's baby god. Everyone treats Hawke special. Not only Fenris. I don't see your point here.

txgoldrush wrote...
And you keep ignore evidence on the contrary about Anders from another poster here....

Simple. Because Anders is sweet talker who  can not be trusted. He once told me that one day he will change the mages situation. I think he mentioned that somewhere at Vigilant Keep, most probably after his warden's recruitment. At that time he already escaped the mage tower 9 times. He would have been captured again but out of my sympathy for his course of mage freedom, I conscripted him. ( I am a pro mage although I am not a mage myself ) Thus, possibly saving his life as the Templar Commander seem to determine to make sure he would never escape again. You know what he did? He repaid me by abandoning his responsibilty and bashing the grey wardens. A deserter. I would have return back to Awakening to strangle him myself but my Morrigan in Witch Hunt DLC is far far more important than a clumsy joker deserter who cannot learn how to take responsibility. He cannot work his problem with his fellow mages at the Mage Tower. He cannot take his responsibility as the Grey Warden. All his care is his cat Ser-Pouce-A-Lot. His hatred for the templars and chantry knows no bound.  If he can change the Spirit of Justice into the Spirit of Revenge, then I don't see how anything or anyone could possibly change him. 

BioWare's Garret Hawke repeatedly tell him to back off when dealing with the Templars. As expected, he made sorrow looking drama face and played sweet talks by saying, "You're probably right..." in reluctant voice. No matter what different Anders you view ( to me this is just a matter of viewing Anders from friendship/rivalry perspective which has no impact on the story plot - the Chantry Explosion ), he still the same person that murdered many innocents lifes for his own selfish goal. Period.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 24 juillet 2011 - 03:01 .

[txgoldrush]

Il Divo wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

a) Still cannot deny that he is in the same vain as Kaiden and Carth. You cannot say the same for someone like Jacob or Varric, who were atypical duetragonists for Bioware games.

a) I just did. Their similarities begin and end with "male lead". Jacob was atypical in that he was the lifeless "every man", which didn't quite work. There's a reason why he tends to rank low on most ME2 squad votes. You have not demonstrated how Alistair is Carth. The character has a completely different personality and motivation throughout the story.

An Alister loses focus on the mission if you recruit Loghain.

Wait, so Alistair is not focused in the last 2-3 hours of gameplay, because he refuses to cooperate with the central villain of our story? So where did the last 40+ hours of gameplay go, where he was completely on board with killing darkspawn?  

Other than backstory, she is very similiar to Dawn Star and Bastila, and Dawn Star really wasn't that preachy. Also like Bastila and Dawn Star....she has two alternate development paths, one darker than the other.

c) Dawn Star was plenty preachy in conversation if you were closed fist, or performed evil actions around her. Leliana admittedly would also do the latter, but in conversation she was not quite so focused on lecturing you about good vs. evil (which Origins thankfully avoided), but on explaining why she finds belief in the Maker so beautiful.  

I also don't see the problem with the development paths. This is actually something that is enjoyable to do, despite being a Bioware cliche. Influencing your companions is another example of being able to make decisions in the storyline, one which I enjoy.

c) Other than backstory and maybe some views (and Zevran's romance arc), whats the difference? They both enjoy killing people. Really the KOTOR II version of HK47 is a far better character than Zevran, and his decision in the driod factory affects the ending.

d) You're basically taking a single trait and claiming that it encompasses the entire character. HK's character, awesome as he is, begins and ends with "kill". That's the summation of his character. Now, why is Zevran different? Again, details. He enjoys killing, like HK. But that's really it. He's not a sadistic maniac and the style of conversation is completely different. Most of HK's conversations do tend to revolve around wanting to kill everything.  

Also, mods are not applicable. In KotOR 2, nothing comes of the Droid Factory without the Restoration Project. Plus, that's Obsidian. Your argument was that Zevran was simply a Bioware archetype.

d) Just because they have different backstories doesn't mean they aren't similiar Bioware archtypes.

e) Again, similarities begin and end with "silent" or "reserved" or any other synonym. The role that each character plays in the story as well as their motivation is completely different. Zu is a former Lotus Assassin who is disenchanted with the group when ordered to kill a child, despite their attempted brainwashing. He is now trying to aid the PC by killing his former brothers.

Sten is a Qunari warrior with a philosophical code around which he bases his entire existence. On top of that, Sten's conversation style is different from every other Bioware companion, hence the difficulty in getting him to open up. Sagacious Zu is the typical Bioware character. Is he meant to be portrayed as silent/contemplative? Yes, but in reality he's about as open to conversation as Dawn Star, or any other character.

e) And what Bioware game uses a frame story with a biographical style narrative over a time span other than DAII? While the element of choice and consquence is pretty much the same as most Bioware games (aka weak), the plot structure is formula breaking. Contrast that with DAO, which follos formula after the Origin stories.

f) The plot structure is exactly the same, it just breaks everything into smaller pieces.

Origins:

Introduction-->Ostagar-->Choose your own Mission-->Ending

DA2:

Introduction-->Kirkwall-->Choose your own mission-->Deep Roads

x 3, for each individual act.

Mass Effect 2 had the same structure. It doesn't really change the formula, only breaks it into smaller parts. What DA2 does right is that each "choose your own mission" is actually relevant to the end goal, unlike Origins and Mass Effect 2.  

f) No, far from it. Varric is a lovable rogue, yes, but as a Bioware character, he is far more unique. Is he a role playing cliche, yes, but is he a Bioware one? No. He is far from a stereotypical dwarf as well. The only character that is really close to another Bioware character in personality is really Merrill and maybe Fenris.

g) Yes, he is a Bioware cliche. He is essentially Sky from Jade Empire, who is also a role-playing cliche. He is no more unique than the credit you seem to give Leliana or Zevran.

a) Jacob is atypical because he is not a goody goody. He is a true neutral if you talk about D&D alignment. Yes, much of the story is different in Kaiden, or Carth, or Allistair case, but they are the same archtype...the goody male lead. Its not that they are complete rips, is that they use the same style of character in the same role over and over. Just because they have different goals and somewhat different personalities doesn't mean there beliefs are diffferent.

And the writer did state that he designed Alistair like a Carth in the medieval setting.

And since when is Loghain the main villian of the story? He is not. Its the Archdemon.

c) still the goody goody female. Who cares if she preaches less, she is still the same Bioware archtype.

Yes, its great that you can influence characters, which DAII actually does better than DAO, offering multiple development options for all characters.

d) Yes, there is some difference, however, you cannot ignore the clear similarities as well. Its the similiarities I am criticizing. Its like comparing Cloud and Squall, somewhat different characters, but they are alot alike as well, too alike, and they were criticized for it. In fact, I find Cloud too similiar to a Terra and Celes mix as well. Bioware needs to not become like the Final Fantasy team and rehash plots and characters over and over.

The HK droid factory in KOTOR II is canon, despite it being restored. It counts. And give credit to Obsidian, they made a Bioware character even better.

e) Still, while their backstories are different, they are too SIMILIAR in their archtype. And Sagacious Zu, unlike Sten, plays a much bigger role in the plot of JE, while Sten contributes really nothing but window dressing.

f) Ummm...no

DAII is more like The Witcher and its sequel than any other Bioware game when it comes to plot structure. In fact, the main plot of Act III is completely linear.

g) ummm....no

They are not similiar at all. Sky, while being a lovable morally good rogue, has a purpose and goal, and that is to avenge his daughter's death. Varric has no real goal whatsoever than to just live (except for the Bartrand subplot). He is also a spymaster and knows the inner workings of the city. Varric really is only in it for his friends. Their personalities are completely different as well. Sky is Chaotic Good, and Varric is more True Neutral.or Chaotic Nuetral regarding alignment.

And come to think of it Wynne is very similiar to Jolee as well...oldies with wild youths.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 24 juillet 2011 - 03:24 .

[txgoldrush]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
Merrill SHATTERS her mirror if you go the rivalry route. She does not on the friendship path. On the rivary path, she realizes that she was the one to blame for what happened. In the friendship path, she learns however that not everyone wants to be saved.

a) She's a naive blood magic user who thinks she can control the demon despite everything she saw from A to Z.  She obsessed about the long lost artifact that belong to her clans ( namely eluvian mrrior ) since Origins to DA 2. 
She is casted by her clans because of this. She's messy. Her house had holes with squirrel ( or was it, rat? I couldn't remember ) She had a library and doing a lot of research. Her knowledge of elven history is impressive. BioWare's Garret Hawke learn a lot from this. She also recount just one or two dialogue lines about my deceased Mahariel but enough to bring nostalgia for me . Despite of this, She is still a shallow character.Period. She has gone to the corner of winds together with the rest of the companions. Or she stayed  with BioWare's Hawke and vanished into thin air by the time DA 2 begins ( Cassandra interogated Varric ). Therefore, the rivalry/friendship effect is meaningless. The person who's supposed to feel such impact on friendship/rivalry ( namely me myself and not the cyborg emotionless dumbed down BioWare's scripted Artificial Intelligence who try so hard to be a person that cannot talk properly, called Garret or Marian Hawke.  ) is nowhere to be found.

txgoldrush wrote...
On the friendship path Isabella, while may go back to pirating, however finds true friends.

Oh, She found her true friends before. Me and Leliana in The Pearl, Denerim, Ferelden. ( I think she's would had threesome with Zevran too if I bring Zevran along. I can't remember already... although it's surprise me that she still interested with Zevran in DA 2. ) Yeap. She still the same old Isabella. Not necessary a bad character. I do like her.

txgoldrush wrote...
On the romance path, she finds that she was afriad to love and so she pushed everyone away. On the rival path, she learns that her actions do have consquences.

She's a widow. A pirate captain. She can backstabs anyone for her own goal but it's fully expected from a rogue pirate. A drunken sex  icons with the golden heart. She belong to the sea. It's in her blood. That's all. Nothing else. Nothing on romance/friendship/rivalry can change that. She's a shallow character that never change.

txgoldrush wrote...
Fenris can even come to respect some mages, especially if Hawke is a mage.

c) Hawke is BioWare's baby god. Everyone treats Hawke special. Not only Fenris. I don't see your point here.

txgoldrush wrote...
And you keep ignore evidence on the contrary about Anders from another poster here....

d) Simple. Because Anders is sweet talker who  can not be trusted. He once told me that one day he will change the mages situation. I think he mentioned that somewhere at Vigilant Keep, most probably after his warden's recruitment. At that time he already escaped the mage tower 9 times. He would have been captured again but out of my sympathy for his course of mage freedom, I conscripted him. ( I am a pro mage although I am not a mage myself ) Thus, possibly saving his life as the Templar Commander seem to determine to make sure he would never escape again. You know what he did? He repaid me by abandoning his responsibilty and bashing the grey wardens. A deserter. I would have return back to Awakening to strangle him myself but my Morrigan in Witch Hunt DLC is far far more important than a clumsy joker deserter who cannot learn how to take responsibility. He cannot work his problem with his fellow mages at the Mage Tower. He cannot take his responsibility as the Grey Warden. All his care is his cat Ser-Pouce-A-Lot. His hatred for the templars and chantry knows no bound.  If he can change the Spirit of Justice into the Spirit of Revenge, then I don't see how anything or anyone could possibly change him. 

BioWare's Garret Hawke repeatedly tell him to back off when dealing with the Templars. As expected, he made sorrow looking drama face and played sweet talks by saying, "You're probably right..." in reluctant voice. No matter what different Anders you view ( to me this is just a matter of viewing Anders from friendship/rivalry perspective which has no impact on the story plot - the Chantry Explosion ), he still the same person that murdered many innocents lifes for his own selfish goal. Period.

a) Wrong.....Merrill fully knows the danger, and really she brings Hawke along in Act III so in case the demon does possess her, Hawke can kill her. In fact, she even states that dealing with spirits is dangerous when Anders tries to call her out on it, reflecting his criticism back at him (as he dealt with Justice). What Merrill is naive about is not the danger to herself, but the social implications of her actions. She doesn't realize that her actions make either people shunning her or scared about her.

Isabela states in "Questioning Beliefs" Act III (friendship path) that Hawke is the best friend she has had in a long time, even inviting Hawke and his love interest to sail with her.



c) don't help Fenris and see what happens...he leaves, or even attacks you in the end. A friendship Hawke can either confirm his suspicions on mages, or makes him realize that some mages agree with him (and he respects the mage Hawke) or in the rival path, he softens his stance on mages and he realizes how much rage has overcome him.

d) The evidence is right there, in th eend, Anders can be a) content with his actions and if in romance, wants Hawke to run with him (friendship, join mages)  is forced to seek atonement for his actions if you side with the Templars and keep him alive (Friendship, join templars) or c) seeks atonement and realizes he put mages at risk (rival, join mages) or d) is nearly suicidal (rival, join Templars). This is if he is not killed at the scene or in a battle with Hawke. Ander's character development is not done when he bombs the chantry.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

txgoldrush wrote...
a) Wrong.....Merrill fully knows the danger,

Yet she continues to practise it. Nice.  

txgoldrush wrote...
and really she brings Hawke along in Act III so in case the demon does possess her, Hawke can kill her. In fact, she even states that dealing with spirits is dangerous when Anders tries to call her out on it, reflecting his criticism back at him (as he dealt with Justice).

The demon did poses her once ( Feynerial's Quest ). She wasn't killed in the fade but just awake. Aaand, it all lost as soon as she had the mirror shard.

txgoldrush wrote...
What Merrill is naive about is not the danger to herself, but the social implications of her actions. She doesn't realize that her actions make either people shunning her or scared about her.

Yet she continues to practise it.

txgoldrush wrote...
Isabela states in "Questioning Beliefs" Act III (friendship path) that Hawke is the best friend she has had in a long time, even inviting Hawke and his love interest to sail with her.

Does it matter? Everyone is gone except Varric. Including Hawke. You are arguing an already non-existing implication.

txgoldrush wrote...
c) don't help Fenris and see what happens...he leaves, or even attacks you in the end.

Not in my game.

txgoldrush wrote...
A friendship Hawke can either confirm his suspicions on mages, or makes him realize that some mages agree with him (and he respects the mage Hawke) or in the rival path, he softens his stance on mages and he realizes how much rage has overcome him.

The things is, he's a wanted person in Tervinter Imperium. He will continue to be hunted by the Tervinter mages until he was killed or re-captured. This certainly doesn't look bright on his "soft stance". In case you have forgotten, he already went his own way wheter you befriended with him or not. It's already over. Nothing change.
 

txgoldrush wrote...
d) The evidence is right there, in th eend, Anders can be a) content with his actions and if in romance, wants Hawke to run with him (friendship, join mages)

Which proof he's still the same diehard anti-templar/chantry as he was before the bombing. 

txgoldrush wrote...
is forced to seek atonement for his actions if you side with the Templars and keep him alive (Friendship, join templars) or c) seeks atonement and realizes he put mages at risk (rival, join mages)

We haven't seen this materialize yet. I can't wait to see how this atonement works. But as far as it goes it's all talks. Perhaps a DLC or DA 3 might properly show this? 

txgoldrush wrote...
Ander's character development is not done when he bombs the chantry.

Let see, after the bombing there's a window of 20 minutes or the most 40 minutes before the credit roll in. Aaand you expect me to examine his dialogue options to study his character development during this intense actions? Not a good way to impact players don't you think so? Anyway, my point still stand. I want to see his action to show he redeem himself. Talk only doesn't count. He talks so much in past it difficult to take his words seriously.

[txgoldrush]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
a) Wrong.....Merrill fully knows the danger,

A) Yet she continues to practise it. Nice.  

txgoldrush wrote...
and really she brings Hawke along in Act III so in case the demon does possess her, Hawke can kill her. In fact, she even states that dealing with spirits is dangerous when Anders tries to call her out on it, reflecting his criticism back at him (as he dealt with Justice).

The demon did poses her once ( Feynerial's Quest ). She wasn't killed in the fade but just awake. Aaand, it all lost as soon as she had the mirror shard.

txgoldrush wrote...
What Merrill is naive about is not the danger to herself, but the social implications of her actions. She doesn't realize that her actions make either people shunning her or scared about her.

C) Yet she continues to practise it.

txgoldrush wrote...
Isabela states in "Questioning Beliefs" Act III (friendship path) that Hawke is the best friend she has had in a long time, even inviting Hawke and his love interest to sail with her.

D) Does it matter? Everyone is gone except Varric. Including Hawke. You are arguing an already non-existing implication.

txgoldrush wrote...
c) don't help Fenris and see what happens...he leaves, or even attacks you in the end.

Not in my game.

txgoldrush wrote...
A friendship Hawke can either confirm his suspicions on mages, or makes him realize that some mages agree with him (and he respects the mage Hawke) or in the rival path, he softens his stance on mages and he realizes how much rage has overcome him.

E) The things is, he's a wanted person in Tervinter Imperium. He will continue to be hunted by the Tervinter mages until he was killed or re-captured. This certainly doesn't look bright on his "soft stance". In case you have forgotten, he already went his own way wheter you befriended with him or not. It's already over. Nothing change.
 

txgoldrush wrote...
d) The evidence is right there, in th eend, Anders can be a) content with his actions and if in romance, wants Hawke to run with him (friendship, join mages)

F) Which proof he's still the same diehard anti-templar/chantry as he was before the bombing. 

txgoldrush wrote...
is forced to seek atonement for his actions if you side with the Templars and keep him alive (Friendship, join templars) or c) seeks atonement and realizes he put mages at risk (rival, join mages)

G) We haven't seen this materialize yet. I can't wait to see how this atonement works. But as far as it goes it's all talks. Perhaps a DLC or DA 3 might properly show this? 

txgoldrush wrote...
Ander's character development is not done when he bombs the chantry.

H) Let see, after the bombing there's a window of 20 minutes or the most 40 minutes before the credit roll in. Aaand you expect me to examine his dialogue options to study his character development during this intense actions? Not a good way to impact players don't you think so? Anyway, my point still stand. I want to see his action to show he redeem himself. Talk only doesn't count. He talks so much in past it difficult to take his words seriously.

A) Yes, she does. Why? Because she thinks the danger is worth it. She thinks that the sacrfice is worth it. Everyone else, doesn't, either out of fear of the demonic or love for Merrill.

First off, the demons possess no one, they just influence their actions. Second, everyone but Anders is prone, Isabela and Merill are first in the order for obvious reasons, but even Fenris can buckle. The desire demon conjures up Aveline's dead husband to influence her.

C) See A

D) Did it matter? It did if Isabela is participating in the final battle. You have to make a significant impact on her to even have her in Act III at all.

E) and when does the Tevinters = all mages. What happens is that he realizes that slavers and malificarium are not the same as Hawke or a Bethany. Another important thing is that he learned that his rage has overcome him. And once again, is he fighting with you when you side with the mages? It matters.

F) Confirmation of beliefs is character development and in Anders case, a friendship and a mage siding will result in this.

G) But we have, especially if Anders is forced to fight on the Templar side. That act alone is what he calls the first step of redemption for what he has done. Also it can be inferred that he is suicidal as well if he has to side with the Templars.

H) Ummmm.yeah. Notice that there is a quiet moment in between the action where you can talk to all your companions.

Nevermind the fact that Anders explanation for the Chantry bombing is somewhat DIFFERENT depending on whether he is a friend or rival. If he is a friend or nuetral, he admits that he is the one to do it, without Justice's influence, and that if he has to die, he would be a martyr. If Anders is a rival, he tells you that Vengence took him over and he can no longer control himself. Then he tells you he wants to die (with an amusing reaction from Fenris) because he can't control himself.

[Sharn01]

For me it comes down to the effect that Hawke can have on the story.  Yes, someone else just as skillful as the warden, or the characters in other Bioware games could have accomplished the same thing, in fact the whole origin thing in DA:O is different characters from different backgrounds accomplishing the same thing in similer ways.  In DA2 though if no one had even tried to do what Hawke did the story still plays out the same.

Varric and his brother still get the idol, maybe it takes a little longer as the have to avoid more trouble, maybe Varric dies after his brother seals him in, who knows, but Bartrand still gets the idol and sells it to Merideth.

The qunari will still attack in chapter 2 and be put down regardless of anything Hawke does, at best Hawke saves some lives that would not have been spared when Merideth and Orsino take out the qunari, worst case scenerio they have to wait for nearby reinforcements that arrive to reclaim the city before a qunari messenger, and a team capable of sailing a ship that distance, can even reach the reinforcements, let alone send them.

Third act doesnt change much at all, and would play out the same without Hawke or anyone else to perform his/her role in the game.  I am still of the opinion that the third act was an atrocity of writing, and while the game up to this point was salvagable despite its flaws, act three is hopeless.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

txgoldrush wrote...
A) Yes, she does. Why? Because she thinks the danger is worth it. She thinks that the sacrfice is worth it. Everyone else, doesn't, either out of fear of the demonic or love for Merrill.

Worth it? Playing with the spirit worth it? Then she never learn what happen to Orsino and every other blood magic users including the mage who turn Hawke's mother into zombie. She is as naive as she was before DA 2. Nope. No development here.

txgoldrush wrote...
First off, the demons possess no one, they just influence their actions. Second, everyone but Anders is prone, Isabela and Merill are first in the order for obvious reasons, but even Fenris can buckle. The desire demon conjures up Aveline's dead husband to influence her.

Sorry for the demon posses things. I get mixed up with that desire demon turn to abomination. Anyway, this experience should be a lesson for her. A reason why she should stop using blood magic already. But she never will. Because she doesn't want to. Therefore she stays shallow, non developed and naive character forever. 

txgoldrush wrote...
D) Did it matter? It did if Isabela is participating in the final battle. You have to make a significant impact on her to even have her in Act III at all.

You're not answering my question. I didn't ask for the consequence in the end of Act III.  I repeat my question again.Does it matter? Everyone is gone. She is gone. Hawke is gone. Your provided link is not happening. It should be happening but it's not. ( Varric confirmed that Hawke and The companions including Isabella went their separated ways or Isabella stays with Hawke but also disappear. Given what happen to Leliana in DA 2, It's more likely Isabela also separated and went on her own path )  So your reference link is invalid.

txgoldrush wrote...
E) and when does the Tevinters = all mages. What happens is that he realizes that slavers and malificarium are not the same as Hawke or a Bethany. Another important thing is that he learned that his rage has overcome him. And once again, is he fighting with you when you side with the mages? It matters.

It doesn't now.

txgoldrush wrote...
F) Confirmation of beliefs is character development and in Anders case, a friendship and a mage siding will result in this.

Anders doesn't need "confirmation of belief". He already has his "confirmation of belief" since Awakening. He's an anti-templar who will do anything to archive his selfish goal. This is not a good option. It just twisted view of ignoring who Anders really is.. 

txgoldrush wrote...
G) But we have, especially if Anders is forced to fight on the Templar side. That act alone is what he calls the first step of redemption for what he has done. Also it can be inferred that he is suicidal as well if he has to side with the Templars.

I've played this game before with Anders in Awakening. Grey Warden Conscription. As the former grey warden commander of Amaranthine, It's in my good faith that he will learn to take responsibilty and stays free as a mage within the authority of The Grey Wardens. He disappointed me once. It's not going to happen again. Under no circumstances that this first step of "redemption"  should be considered as valid. Beside, the fight in the end wasn't againt the mages only but Templars too ( which is exactly what he's looking forward ). Anders had to do better than that. 

txgoldrush wrote...
H) Ummmm.yeah. Notice that there is a quiet moment in between the action where you can talk to all your companions.

Nevermind the fact that Anders explanation for the Chantry bombing is somewhat DIFFERENT depending on whether he is a friend or rival. If he is a friend or nuetral, he admits that he is the one to do it, without Justice's influence, and that if he has to die, he would be a martyr. If Anders is a rival, he tells you that Vengence took him over and he can no longer control himself. Then he tells you he wants to die (with an amusing reaction from Fenris) because he can't control himself.

As I said, I've talked so much with Anders in the past I'm not interested in what he tells anymore. I want sincere proof of redemption in deed. I want confirmation that he will not escape his duty again like he did with the mage circle and the grey warden. Proof to me that Anders is not a mere golden tounge joker who cannot be trusted but an honorable freedom fighter that can take his own responsibility without hiding behind Hawke's back. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 24 juillet 2011 - 11:11 .

[Kevin Lynch]

Lots of spoilers in here, so this is being moved to the spoiler forum. Remember where you were posting and try keeping the thread discussion appropriate in the future.