[quote]Il Divo wrote...
[quote]txgoldrush wrote...
a) Jacob is atypical because he is not a goody goody. He is a true neutral if you talk about D&D alignment.
Yes, much of the story is different in Kaiden, or Carth, or Allistair case, but they are the same archtype...the goody male lead. Its not that they are complete rips, is that they use the same style of character in the same role over and over. Just because they have different goals and somewhat different personalities doesn't mean there beliefs are diffferent. [/quote]
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A) First off, D&D alignments are a pretty fail way to describe a character type. There's a reason why the alignment system is so controversial, primarily because it's far too absolute. Second, Jacob is the typical good-goody, simply affiliated with a terrorist organization. He fills the exact same role that Carth or Kaidan would. Illusive Man specifically points out that Jacob doesn't like him, and refuses to go along with Cerberus' controversial projects.
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And since when is Loghain the main villian of the story? He is not. Its the Archdemon. [/quote]
The Archdemon is a MacGuffin, simply providing the setting of the story. Loghain is the one who fuels the conflict which the PCs focus on. It's like pointing out Sovereign instead of Saren as the main villain of Mass Effect, or the Emperor over Darth Vader. The BBEG is not necessarily the central villain of the story.
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c) still the goody goody female. Who cares if she preaches less, she is still the same Bioware archtype. [/quote]
C) So what is Aveline, besides the goody-goody female?
What is Isabela if not the strong-willed female, which we've already seen in Morrigan, Bastila, and Ashley?
Archetypes are not what makes or breaks a character. Details are.
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d) Yes, there is some difference, however, you cannot ignore the clear similarities as well. Its the similiarities I am criticizing. Its like comparing Cloud and Squall, somewhat different characters, but they are alot alike as well, too alike, and they were criticized for it. In fact, I find Cloud too similiar to a Terra and Celes mix as well. Bioware needs to not become like the Final Fantasy team and rehash plots and characters over and over. [/quote]
D) Rehash plots? Certainly. Rehash characters? Well, if we play your game, I could list pretty much the entire DA2 cast as being a rehash. Archetype =! character.
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The HK droid factory in KOTOR II is canon, despite it being restored. It counts. And give credit to Obsidian, they made a Bioware character even better. [/quote]
E) 1) Cut content is not considered canon.
2) Content which is restored via a mod was not produced by the developers.
3) Obsidian is not Bioware.
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e) Still, while their backstories are different, they are too SIMILIAR in their archtype. And Sagacious Zu, unlike Sten, plays a much bigger role in the plot of JE, while Sten contributes really nothing but window dressing. [/quote]
F) Again, your archetype begins and ends with "reserved". That's all they have in common. Most Bioware characters are window-dressing. This is nothing new.
Carth and Bastila are the necessary plot characters for KotOR. The same goes for Sagacious Zu and Dawn Star. Liara is the only Mass Effect character to be critical. ME2's entire cast can be removed, since they're all window dressing. That DA:O follows this is not some crime against humanity. DA2's plot-essential characters are only Varric/Anders. Everyone else can be remove with very little rewriting, as few characters are central to the storyline.
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f) Ummm...no
DAII is more like The Witcher and its sequel than any other Bioware game when it comes to plot structure. In fact, the main plot of Act III is completely linear. [/quote]
G) I'm sorry. So the structure is:
Introduction-->Kirkwall-->Choose your own Mission-->Deeproads
Repeat for Act 2 --> Act 3.
It's still following the Bioware structure. It resembles the ME2 style almost exactly and only differs from DA:O/KotOR by repeating the choose your own mission order. This is not new.
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g) ummm....no
They are not similiar at all. Sky, while being a lovable morally good rogue, has a purpose and goal, and that is to avenge his daughter's death. Varric has no real goal whatsoever than to just live (except for the Bartrand subplot). He is also a spymaster and knows the inner workings of the city. Varric really is only in it for his friends. Their personalities are completely different as well. Sky is Chaotic Good, and Varric is more True Neutral.or Chaotic Nuetral regarding alignment. [/quote]
H) You're still playing the hypocrite game, saying that archetypes are bad, and then using details to justify why Varric isn't an archetype. Sky and Varric have the same archetype, but as I keep trying to explain to you, repeated archetypes are not a bad thing. Details is what separate Zu from Sten, Zevran from HK, Leliana from Bastila.
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A) That doesn't make Jacob goody goody, that just doesn't make him a bastard or an apologist like Miranda. None of the ME2 cast is goody goody. Even Garrus is brutal and ruthless. ME2 had a noticably darker cast than other bioware games.
Wrong...The Archdemon is by definition, the main antagonist of Dragon Age, just like Soverign is in the first ME game. And no, Loghain is not the central conflict the PCs focus on, its always been the darkspawn. Loghain is less of an "antagonist" than Saren is in ME1. And taking all six star wars movies as a whole...Anakin/Vader is actually the MAIN PROTAGONIST.
C) Is Aveline really that good? Not really, she at times, unlike Alistair, Carth, Kaiden, Dawn Star, light side Bastila, and Leliana....will support an immoral action for the greater good. In fact, she wants you to extrajudically execute the magisters son. She will also look the other way whenever Hawke breaks the law, as well as his or her friends. She will support the Templars against the mages even if innocent mages are being killed. Far from the other typical goody leads, she is far more morally grey. Same with Sebastian who is in a personal conflict.
D) Sure DAII characters can be similiar to other genre characters however, they are much more different from OTHER BIOWARE CHARACTERS than the DAO crew.
E) Except that it is...its official Star Wars canon for the Old Republic series (the light side outcome). And Obsidian isn't Bioware, they rehash their characters far less.
F) Somewhat true, but DAO is far worse than most Bioware games. In Jade Empire, most of the characters will play a role in the story in one form or another. In ME1, Ashley and Kaiden are critical as well, and Liara doesn't have to even be recruited. Still a window dressing effect, but far less than DAO. At least the characters get their moments on Virmire. In ME2, they ARE the story.
Varric and Anders, yes, but Aveline and Isabela as well. And even non essentials will play a role in the plot. Fenris is the ONLY exception.
In DAO, only Allistair will play any major role in the main plot except for one moment with Morrigan. Everyone else are talking codex entries, much more so than other Bioware games KOTOR and after.
G) Keep grasping straws, but DAII is more similiar to The Witcher games Acts structure than Biowares "linear intro-open middle-linear end" approach. You cannot deny this. Not only that companions got one mission per act. Way more than the three talks and small sidequest formula.
H) Wrong...I am not criticizing DAO for using archtypes, I am criticizing DAO's cast for being too similiar to OTHER BIOWARE CHARACTERS!!!!!
And Sky and Varric are NOT the same archetype other than the fact that they are rogues, and definitely not the same BIOWARE archtype.. Sky is a "Locke Cole" type character, a do gooder, a freedom fighter, and an avenger. Varric is not, he is only in for the friendship, not for some higher purpose. He has to morals other than love of his friends. In fact, he is kind of shady at times.
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