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The hypocritical criticism of choices not affecting DAII's plot......


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#126
Pasquale1234

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ademska wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

The Warden was also able to influence companions in some pretty significant ways. so it is pretty easy to overlook that aspect in DA2 when making comparisons.

not to anywhere close the degree that hawke can (simply by virtue of having a dual f/r bar instead of a single scale of good vs leave party), but that makes sense, because this game's focus was on its companions, whereas dao's was bigger-picture.

if zevran's approval drops to minimum, he leaves the party and nothing comes of it, unless you force him into a fight, and then he's dead.

if anders' rivalry goes to max, he has completely different game-spanning character arc with separate dialogue and he actually discusses his fate in-game, if spared.


I haven't experienced both ends of that scale with Anders.

I will say, though, that if the Warden wins Shale's friendship and respect, Shale can decide to seek out a way to become squishy again.  That is a bigger impact on a companion character than anything I have seen (or heard described) in DA2, imho.

#127
Myzzrimm

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I still can't stress how many rpg's bioware has produced with just a single plotline, with very few, or no choices up to end game. Baldur's gate: kill the masked man. Baldurs gate II: kill your captor. Knights of the old republic: kill malak.

Origins was quite the leap, considering it was in development before mass effect, and it's predecessor was jade empire, which was only marginily an improvement on choices from knights.

For emphasis, these were critically acclaimed games. Great games. I don't really understand the bystandet argument when so many were just that, by its definition.

#128
xkg

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Aaleel wrote...

xkg wrote...

I think she means Petrice. You can save her and even meet her in act 3.
But no, you can't save Saemus.


Can you kill her, because I might play the game again just for that.  The one time I thought I was going to be able to I never got the chance.  I was begging for an ME2 renegade interrupt lol. 


You mean later in act 3? No . for her to survive you need to support her in act 2 -and then she became your "friend"Image IPB
So killing her is not an option lol

#129
TEWR

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Nerevar-as wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The real problem with Hawke isn't that he can't keep things from falling apart (which is something I love seeing if done right). It's that he doesn't make enough of an effort to try and keep things from falling apart.


Had he made an honest effort, then people wouldn't have such a problem with him. He was meant to change the world after things fell apart.


Also, it didn't help that the three Acts were barely connected to one another when they could've been.


Hawke's endgame choice does have potential. I just wish the entire game had made it feel like it should've


Potential for what? Another thing the game failed (IMHO) was convincing me hawke could do anything about the war. Mages or templars respect him/her? Besides the other side most likely hating his/her guts, I don´t see why picking one side would mean they are going to stop fighting just because s/he tells them to. S/he isn´t valid even as a messenger, as only one side likes him. So unless the choice also means the side Hawke chose is the one winning (which would be a nonsense), there´s nothing s/he can do in the war.



Hence why I said "I just wish the entire game had made it feel like it should've".


Whether people like it or not, Hawke has the potential to do something about the war. That's why he was the protagonist. That the game and the devs failed to deliver this in a way that worked is a different matter.

#130
Nerevar-as

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Myzzrimm wrote...

I still can't stress how many rpg's bioware has produced with just a single plotline, with very few, or no choices up to end game. Baldur's gate: kill the masked man. Baldurs gate II: kill your captor. Knights of the old republic: kill malak.

Origins was quite the leap, considering it was in development before mass effect, and it's predecessor was jade empire, which was only marginily an improvement on choices from knights.

For emphasis, these were critically acclaimed games. Great games. I don't really understand the bystandet argument when so many were just that, by its definition.


There´s a lot more than that to them. With DA2, not so much. Excluding the end of Act 2, DA2 plot seems just a bunch of quests slapped together among unrelated quests. Few of which are good.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 12 juillet 2011 - 10:23 .


#131
phaonica

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ademska wrote...

we're not talking about plot, we're talking about impact on characterization in a significant way. rivaled anders vs friend anders is almost a different person.

that's the point.

you don't have to like that it's an impact on characterization rather than plot, and that's fine. just recognize that it's an impact.

edit: i've got to run errands; i hope we're still on this when i get back because this is fun


Okay, I do agree. In DA2, you certainly have the ability to change your party members, that as a consequence of your dialog choices, you can have a significant impact on the way your party members think.

And that the game seems to place a higher priority on making an impact in their lives than it does making an impact on the lives of all the people being affected by the conflict in the main plot.

#132
Zanallen

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Most Bioware games have very little real choice and poor reactivity. DA2's problem is that the short dev time didn't allow them to hide it as well as they usually do.

#133
phaonica

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ademska wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I always thought that it would have been kind of cool if there was a random chance in Awakening that someone you put through the Joining would die. For me, it would have made the choice to put someone through the Joining more intense.

or if you bring your sibling and anders to the deep roads in da2, there was a percentage chance that they wouldn't survive the joining, and the game would just treat it like you hadn't brought anders

okay now i'm really going see ya


Ooh, that would have been cool too, because even metagame, you couldn't be sure they would survive.

#134
CrimsonZephyr

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phaonica wrote...

ademska wrote...

we're not talking about plot, we're talking about impact on characterization in a significant way. rivaled anders vs friend anders is almost a different person.

that's the point.

you don't have to like that it's an impact on characterization rather than plot, and that's fine. just recognize that it's an impact.

edit: i've got to run errands; i hope we're still on this when i get back because this is fun


Okay, I do agree. In DA2, you certainly have the ability to change your party members, that as a consequence of your dialog choices, you can have a significant impact on the way your party members think.

And that the game seems to place a higher priority on making an impact in their lives than it does making an impact on the lives of all the people being affected by the conflict in the main plot.


Absolutely, but the trouble here is that most of your companions are insufferable or annoying in some way (Merrill, Sebastian, Fenris, Anders, Carver, Isabela, I'm looking at all of you). Making a story centered around helping your party means very little if the player can't bring themselves to care about these characters.

#135
phaonica

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Myzzrimm wrote...

I don't really understand the bystandet argument when so many were just that, by its definition.


You're right. Most games are bystander games. DA2 had the perfect potential to not be a bystander game. You could have picked a side and made an *active* effort towards achieving your goals. Instead, to me, it felt like Hawke had nearly no ability to influence the conflict. S/he could only wait around and react to whatever crisis occured.

#136
TEWR

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phaonica wrote...

Myzzrimm wrote...

I don't really understand the bystandet argument when so many were just that, by its definition.


You're right. Most games are bystander games. DA2 had the perfect potential to not be a bystander game. You could have picked a side and made an *active* effort towards achieving your goals. Instead, to me, it felt like Hawke had nearly no ability to influence the conflict. S/he could only wait around and react to whatever crisis occured.



There are a few ways it could've played out:


A bystander to it all who actively tries to keep things together and fails, which would've been nice and if done well I would've liked. Would I have preferred that? No, but if done well I would've liked it.


Or Hawke establishes as early as Act 1 which side he's on and is able to do things to strengthen that side. Pro-Mage players become the leader of the Mage Underground and help break out mages from the Gallows and from Templar captors.

Pro-Templar players can help the Templars crush the Mage Underground either secretly or blatantly (same effects more or less). Difference being that blatantly would cause Anders to leave until the endgame when he forces everyones' hand.

#137
phaonica

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CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Absolutely, but the trouble here is that most of your companions are insufferable or annoying in some way (Merrill, Sebastian, Fenris, Anders, Carver, Isabela, I'm looking at all of you). Making a story centered around helping your party means very little if the player can't bring themselves to care about these characters.


I don't want to imply that I think that characterization is overrated. After all, making a story about ending some conflict means very little if the player doesn't care about the conflict.

For me DAO would not have been nearly as good if not for the presence of Morrigan, Alistair, Loghain, etc. The "gather ALL THE THINGS then fight the boss" plot is pretty formulaic. But at least in DAO, I felt like my characters were making a difference in the world. In DA2, I felt like there weren't many meaningful consequences to my actions (outside of party dialog).

#138
phaonica

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A bystander to it all who actively tries to keep things together and fails, which would've been nice and if done well I would've liked. Would I have preferred that? No, but if done well I would've liked it.


Or Hawke establishes as early as Act 1 which side he's on and is able to do things to strengthen that side. Pro-Mage players become the leader of the Mage Underground and help break out mages from the Gallows and from Templar captors.

Pro-Templar players can help the Templars crush the Mage Underground either secretly or blatantly (same effects more or less). Difference being that blatantly would cause Anders to leave until the endgame when he forces everyones' hand.


That sounds great. If Hawke could have been the leader of the Mage Underground and directed certain escapes, or increased/decreased the prevelance of blood magic use in the Underground or in the Circle, had increased the awareness and/or acceptance of bonding to good spirits, become an influenctial political representative of the Circle ... just all kinds of stuff that would have actually influenced the conflict, instead of waiting for various summons from the Viscount or Merideth or whoever. Hawke does make choices, but they don't change anything.

And while that perhaps is the whole point of the story, that Hawke was there when the conflict occured, but he didn't actually do any of the epic things he was known for, while I give props to the writers for being edgy like that, maybe his stumbling into influence should have been only part of the story while the other part was Hawke actually *using* that influence for something.

#139
TheRealJayDee

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arcelonious wrote...
I personally care more about the fate of my character's friends and family more than choosing one political leader over another.


I do too. And both me and my (canon) Hawke did in DA2. That's about the reason why there was no reason for him to stay in Kirkwall after Act 2...

#140
ademska

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Whether people like it or not, Hawke has the potential to do something about the war. That's why he was the protagonist. That the game and the devs failed to deliver this in a way that worked is a different matter.

no, he actually didn't.  @nerevar-as and i disagree about whether this means the game failed, but he's right in that hawke is a character completely without power. he defeats the big bad in act 2, sure, but he's not actually a noble, he's not got any kind of power or influence beyond name recognition. the only thing being the 'champion' gives him the power to do is protect his own skin if he's a mage and that of his mage companions from meredith. the reason the warden had political capital was that he possessed the warden treaties, and everyone was legally bound by them. hawke has nothing.

you're used to the protagonist having that kind of agency, so you assume he must because you're conditioned to. that's the definition of a deconstruction, and it's part of why, to me, the game is so brilliant.

...though i'll admit their marketing hawke as a harbinger of destiny really didn't help. or maybe it's part of the deconstruction! :wizard:


@CrimsonZephyr
obviously this part's all opinion but i loved the cast of da2, both on their own merits and because they felt so much more alive to me than dao's. they formed relationships and had lives outside of hawke, advanced their own stories without hawke's babysitting and choice-making.

dao had amazing characters, don't get me wrong, but because of the scope of the game they couldn't develop outside of the context of the warden.


@pasquale
the shale thing is very significant, and i thought it was really nifty, but i don't think it eclipses anders' arc at all. because of the approval system, shale's got that one singular path -- either the warden gets her to that point or he doesn't.

anders, meanwhile, has two potential endings (obviously we're excluding the ability to kill characters) that vary dramatically. on one end, he ends as a unified janders, a calm assimilation of justice and anders at peace with who he is and what he's become, hopeful about the mage cause.  on the other end, he's bitter, regretful, and completely at war with himself, suffering blackouts and struggling to beat back the influence of vengeance, which is slowly taking him over. he sides against everything he believes in, and regrets it so deeply that he decides to kill himself.

so, yes, peeling back the layers of zevran or helping leliana reconcile her darker nature or convincing shale to fundamentally alter her existence are crazy awesome, bioware does amazing characters, etc...

...but that kind of influence doesn't hold up to da2 simply because there is no divergent character path. either you kick up their approval or you don't. da2 expanded the gameplay mechanics, so it's able to explore that kind of choice-influenced character dichotomy.

and i love it <3

Modifié par ademska, 13 juillet 2011 - 12:32 .


#141
Pasquale1234

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ademska wrote...

no, he actually didn't.  @nerevar-as and i disagree about whether this means the game failed, but he's right in that hawke is a character completely without power. he defeats the big bad in act 2, sure, but he's not actually a noble, he's not got any kind of power or influence beyond name recognition. the only thing being the 'champion' gives him the power to do is protect his own skin if he's a mage and that of his mage companions from meredith. the reason the warden had political capital was that he possessed the warden treaties, and everyone was legally bound by them. hawke has nothing.

you're used to the protagonist having that kind of agency, so you assume he must because you're conditioned to. that's the definition of a deconstruction, and it's part of why, to me, the game is so brilliant.

...though i'll admit their marketing hawke as a harbinger of destiny really didn't help. or maybe it's part of the deconstruction! :wizard:


Welcome back  :D  (though I'll prolly be signing off soon)

I think Hawke may have had some political capital, but the game did not provide us with any way to use it.  If you click on the nobles left standing in the square after the cinematic opening of Act 3, they indicate their support of Hawke.  You can also talk to Bran about the requirements to become Viscount.  I have to wonder whether the original intention was to give Hawke the option to campaign for Viscount, but that content got cut due to time constraints or something.  I'd like to believe they had more planned for Act 3 than what we ended up with - and it would have come a lot closer to satisfying the marketing claim about 'rising to power by any means necessary'.

#142
OdanUrr

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(This post is going to be long so you probably won't read it. You might, however, click on the link below and watch the video. It explores the core of choices. Food for thought.)

More on choices...

Thanks to ademska, I've seen quite a handful of videos from the "Extra Credits" series. One in particular seems to deal with something that polarizes fans on both sides when it comes to DA2: choices. This video deals with the question of what exactly is a choice. Is everything we do a choice? If it were, choices would lose their appeal real fast. Here's the link for the video. Watch it, I recommend it. Then keep reading.

http://www.escapistm...ce-and-Conflict

Illuminating, isn't it? It was for me since it pinned down something that has been troubling me for quite a while. In one of my earlier posts I tried to explain why special attention had been paid to this particular issue, when in DAO it wasn't much of one, or rather, people weren't so vocal about it. I'll get back to that later.

For those who didn't watch the video, here's a quick recap (more of a transcript, really).

In a game you might find:

- Autonomic reactions: These are acts such as breathing, which you don't really have any control over. Even if you tried to stop your breathing, your body will overrule you and resume its normal bodily function.

- Reactions: Such as pulling your hand away from a flame. There's an explosion nearby, your first reaction is probably to get away as fast as you can. It's not a choice, you just react. Bear with me.

- Calculations: These are decisions based solely on reason with a clear correct answer. If I can buy the same game from two places A and B and B's cheaper, I'll buy it from B.

None of the above are choices. A choice is overcoming conflict. Without conflict, there is no choice, only decisions. Conflict can arise from:

Short-term goal vs. Long-term goal

Let's expand on the Mario example. Let's assume your long-term goal is to save the galaxy. Saving the galaxy is quite expensive in terms of armor, weapons, etc., so one of your short-term goals is probably going to be to raise a certain amount of money. Of course, if you want to save the galaxy, you need to stay alive. Hence, your second short-term goal. Now, raising money may put you in harm's way more often than not, thus jeopardizing not only your second short-term goal, but also your long-term goal. But, hey, more money means more options of weapons and armor that will allow you to pursue your long-term goal more efficiently, right? This is a choice. You choose when it's enough. Of course, we'd all rather have our cake and eat it too, hence the modding community. Customization brings me to the next point...

Incomparables

Incomparables pop more often than not when we talk customization, so let's talk customization. Consider "Section 8: Prejudice." In this game, as in many other FPS, you're restricted to the number of weapons you can carry, if memory serves, you can carry between two to three weapons out of an arsenal of six or more. Which one do you take? The pistol? The assault rifle? The sniper rifle? All have different perks, for instance the SR has greater accuracy and damage output but the AR also deals considerable damage in close quarters. If the game's done properly, you can approach it using different weapon combos, and we haven't even entered the realm of selecting different ammunition or mods, like in ME. Some ammo is better suited for synthetics, other for organics. Some mods give you greater stability, others dissipate heat more effectively. See? Choices.

Of course, there will always be games that force you to carry certain weapon all the time because, quite simply, you need it. I've heard this to be true of "Duke Nukem Forever," in the sense that you simply must carry a rocket launcher at all times and, given you're restricted to two weapons, you'll almost certainly go for the shotgun as the second. This leads me to another point of the video: masking calculations as incomparables.

The video mentioned WoW as a perfect example of this, and even Mike Laidlaw (was it him?) at some point complained that players in DAO ended up using the same armor for all their companions. Why? Probably because that particular armor was better than any other in the game. When you can turn an item into a set of numbers, it's easy to decide which one you'll end up using. This isn't a choice, it's a calculation, a decision based solely on reason that has a clear correct answer, remember?

Let's bring it closer to home: DA2. I'm sure people out there are already fine-tuning the perfect class-combos. Hey, maybe this is true of DAO as well. When you can create a mage with fireball spells, whirlwind, and assassinate, the perfect class-combo is that much more elusive. On the other hand, when certain abilities are restricted to a specific class, your options are reduced, and the task of turning abilities into numbers becomes so much easier. For instance, whenever I play a mage, I find myself going for pretty much the same abilities: heal, fireball, lightning bolt. It's just what the video said, you look to maximize your damage output while boosting your defense/health values. You might veer off the path a little for variety's sake, but when push comes to shove, you go for the same abilities every time.

 
By this point, you're probably thinking, "How does this relate to Hawke and his companions?" I'm thinking it too. But remember, choice is overcoming conflict. There is no conflict when you can safely say that A is the correct answer. There is no right answer when talking to your companions about their thoughts, opinions, and ideals, as opposed to your own. Conflict may very well arise from discussing the issue of slavery, the validity of using blood magic, or the fine line between justice and vengeance.

The more fulfilling aspect of choice, however, comes not from discussing these topics but from facing them. Would you resort to blood magic to save someone you loved? Would you free a slave if it meant jeopardizing your own mission? These choices go to the core of who you are, of who you want to be. Some of them arise from the points described above, others from carefully considering your own ethics and morals. Satisfaction comes from putting who you are as a person to the test and, sometimes, the test is enough in and of itself, without the player looking for a reward. Of course, it's always welcome.

Perhaps this is why it wasn't very difficult for me to side with the mages rather than the templars at the end of Act III. Yes, we're shown throughout the game that most mages in Kirkwall are deranged, borderline psychotic. We're also shown that templars can act like zealots, fanatics with an insatiable bloodlust. Both feed off each other and perpetuate this circle. But this isn't what sparks the conflict at the end of Act III, this is merely the backdrop, something that's already been going on for a long time. What sparks the conflict is an event, one that is just as unfair to pin on the mages as it would be to pin another one on the templars or the Chantry as a whole.

And we're coming to the crux of the matter. The reason why it's so easy for me to choose, and, yes, it's still a choice, is that the question comes down to a very simple (for me) ethical dilemma: do you hold an entire group responsible for the actions of one of its members? Well, the member isn't quite a member but you get the point. It would be more difficult for me if, say, siding with the templars would provide a quicker resolution to the conflict, or maybe more lives would be spared. My companions could serve to shed some light on these finer points, but they don't and we don't perceive a different outcome save in the manner people will see Hawke. We can conjecture away that siding with the templars is right by the city, but when dealing in intangibles, at the end of the day, no side will win the argument. I can always conjecture something up that will trump my opponent's point and he can do likewise.

But, yes, it's a choice, one that comes down to your ethics sure, but that doesn't diminish its value. Choices based on ethics can be an immensely rich field to explore, but the problem is DA2 doesn't really take advantage of that. Do other Bioware titles successfully explot this? I don't know, and this post has already gone on long enough. So, you might want to explore how many of your decisions in DA2 are really reactions and calculations, and how many are choices and what kind of choices. Just saying. Have fun!

Modifié par OdanUrr, 13 juillet 2011 - 01:17 .


#143
ademska

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@OdanUrr, a concise response to a long post:

i can safely say that since i consider the consequences of greatest depth in da2 to be companion-based, these alterations are wrought from complex, morally indistinct change, not calculation.

and those videos are super fun and informative, aren't they?

#144
Morroian

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Pasquale1234 wrote...

I think Hawke may have had some political capital, but the game did not provide us with any way to use it.  If you click on the nobles left standing in the square after the cinematic opening of Act 3, they indicate their support of Hawke.  You can also talk to Bran about the requirements to become Viscount.  I have to wonder whether the original intention was to give Hawke the option to campaign for Viscount, but that content got cut due to time constraints or something.  I'd like to believe they had more planned for Act 3 than what we ended up with - and it would have come a lot closer to satisfying the marketing claim about 'rising to power by any means necessary'.


You can actually help the nobles in rebellious activities in Act 3 but it gets cuts short by Anders. I'm of the same opinion as Ademska  that Hawke being powerless is a deliberate theme in the game and thus there isn't anything which gives Hawke real power.

As for the marketing, it sucks. There were ways they could have advertised it which reflected the actual game but the idiots in the Bioware marketing department chose to create false expectations.

#145
Yrkoon

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ademska wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Whether people like it or not, Hawke has the potential to do something about the war. That's why he was the protagonist. That the game and the devs failed to deliver this in a way that worked is a different matter.

no, he actually didn't.  @nerevar-as and i disagree about whether this means the game failed, but he's right in that hawke is a character completely without power. he defeats the big bad in act 2, sure, but he's not actually a noble, he's not got any kind of power or influence beyond name recognition. the only thing being the 'champion' gives him the power to do is protect his own skin if he's a mage and that of his mage companions from meredith. the reason the warden had political capital was that he possessed the warden treaties, and everyone was legally bound by them. hawke has nothing.

you're used to the protagonist having that kind of agency, so you assume he must because you're conditioned to. that's the definition of a deconstruction, and it's part of why, to me, the game is so brilliant.

...though i'll admit their marketing hawke as a harbinger of destiny really didn't help.

The whole marketing (and official   labeling) of  Hawke's adventure as a  rise to power  didn't help matters either.  LOL

Modifié par Yrkoon, 13 juillet 2011 - 01:06 .


#146
Monica83

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Do you want choice that matter?

Dragon age origins or The witcher 2 end of line

#147
ademska

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yet another brilliant contribution, monica!!!


@Pasquale, Morroian, et al
no, i agree, their marketing is dumbity bum dumb, no arguments from me. and i'd also agree with the possibility that act 3 had content cut or ideas scrapped, ideas that, if implemented, would have made the deconstruction all the more obvious. can you imagine if you'd been able to make a serious bid for viscount, or help out in the mage underground, only to have it stepped on by the respective institutions? it would have been really nifty, and it would have made people feel as if hawke really had the opportunity to try, instead of having to connect a lot of the dots ourselves. alas, short dev time, take what we can get and hope EA doesn't make the same rushing mistake again.

but yeah, i'll stick to the argument that no matter what hawke did, what happened was going to happen, and that was half the point. ...it just would have been cool if 'what hawke did' had greater variety to it.

Modifié par ademska, 13 juillet 2011 - 01:16 .


#148
OdanUrr

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ademska wrote...

and those videos are super fun and informative, aren't they?


Indeed they are.

Morroian wrote...

As for the marketing, it sucks. There were ways they could have advertised it which reflected the actual game but the idiots in the Bioware marketing department chose to create false expectations.


I think the marketing is EA's responsibility, but I could very well be wrong.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 13 juillet 2011 - 01:27 .


#149
TEWR

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ademska wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Whether people like it or not, Hawke has the potential to do something about the war. That's why he was the protagonist. That the game and the devs failed to deliver this in a way that worked is a different matter.

no, he actually didn't.  @nerevar-as and i disagree about whether this means the game failed, but he's right in that hawke is a character completely without power. he defeats the big bad in act 2, sure, but he's not actually a noble, he's not got any kind of power or influence beyond name recognition. the only thing being the 'champion' gives him the power to do is protect his own skin if he's a mage and that of his mage companions from meredith. the reason the warden had political capital was that he possessed the warden treaties, and everyone was legally bound by them. hawke has nothing.

you're used to the protagonist having that kind of agency, so you assume he must because you're conditioned to. that's the definition of a deconstruction, and it's part of why, to me, the game is so brilliant.

...though i'll admit their marketing hawke as a harbinger of destiny really didn't help. or maybe it's part of the deconstruction! :wizard:



Ah true. I forgot he didn't build up any connections. But whatever side he picked endgame is the side he's going to be associated with. And if he's fighting for that side, he'll have to build connections and be proactive.


As for me being used to the protagonist having that kind of agency, no not really if we're talking only about RPGs. I haven't played many RPGs. I'm 19 and I guess you could say DAO was my first RPG. Or Pokemon, as that's an RPG if you make the category of what's an RPG a very broad notion.

#150
Morroian

Morroian
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OdanUrr wrote...

I think the marketing is EA's responsibility, but I could very well be wrong.

Bioware has their own marketing arm. David Silverman heads it up even though his title is now EA related.