79 réponses à ce sujet

[Eddo36]

Since fraternization is morally wrong anywhere and everywhere?

Within militaries, officers and members of enlisted ranks are typically prohibited from personally associating outside of their professional duties and orders. Excessively familiar relationships between officers of different ranks may also be considered fraternization, especially when between officers in the same chain of command. The reasons for anti-fraternization policies within modern militaries often include the maintenance of discipline and chain of command and the prevention of the spreading of military secrets to enemies, which may amount to treason or sedition under military law. (For an example of the former, consider a fighting force in which officers are unwilling to put certain enlisted men at risk; for an example of the latter, consider a situation in which a senior officer passes secrets to a junior officer, who allows them to be compromised by a romantic interest and consequently to end up in the hands of the enemy).

Modifié par Eddo36, 12 juillet 2011 - 04:11 .

[MeAndMySandvich]

Yes. Also everyone know true romance is between Shepard and gun.

[Eddo36]

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

Yes. Also everyone know true romance is between Shepard and gun.

*gets image out of head*

Seriously though, think there will be any non-biased, non-NPC-lovestruck replies?

Modifié par Eddo36, 12 juillet 2011 - 04:16 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

MeAndMySandvich wrote...
Yes. Also everyone know true romance is between Shepard and gun.

"I call her Jessie..."

[l DryIce l]

No. Shepard is in charge. The people in his ship fall under his rules, and his rules only. And to claim that it is "morally wrong anywhere and everywhere" is a bit much. The relationships are prohibited because the assumption is made that the relationship will negatively affect...well, effectiveness. This assumption shouldn't be made in a video game where you control Shepard's actions.

So in other words: having a relationship should not net you renegade points unless you allow the relationship to affect you in such a way that causes you to make a renegade action. And in that case, the relationship is irrelevant since it's the action that gave you renegade points, not the relationship. 

Modifié par l DryIce l, 12 juillet 2011 - 04:21 .

[bleetman]

Game =/= realism.

[Eddo36]

l DryIce l wrote...

No. Shepard is in charge. The people in his ship fall under his rules, and his rules only. And to claim that it is "morally wrong anywhere and everywhere" is a bit much. The relationships are prohibited because the assumption is made that the relationship will negatively affect...well, effectiveness. This assumption shouldn't be made in a video game where you control Shepard's actions.

The thing is, Shepard doesn't know what's going on in the game until key points, and doesn't know what will happen until they happen. As the player, you are not Shepard, you're only a player who controls his/her interactions. You may know what's going on your second playthrough, but Shep doesn't.

Modifié par Eddo36, 12 juillet 2011 - 04:19 .

[HTTP 404]

Shepard follows his own rules

[Eddo36]

HTTP 404 wrote...

Shepard follows his own rules

Rules are made for a reason. Otherwise, who needs rules? Will you be happy if your manager is married to your co-worker rival?

Modifié par Eddo36, 12 juillet 2011 - 04:22 .

[l DryIce l]

Eddo36 wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

No. Shepard is in charge. The people in his ship fall under his rules, and his rules only. And to claim that it is "morally wrong anywhere and everywhere" is a bit much. The relationships are prohibited because the assumption is made that the relationship will negatively affect...well, effectiveness. This assumption shouldn't be made in a video game where you control Shepard's actions.

The thing is, Shepard doesn't know what's going on in the game until key points, and doesn't know what will happen until they happen. As the player, you are not Shepard, you're only a player who controls his/her interactions. You may know what's going on your second playthrough, but Shep doesn't.

Why does that matter? Who cares if Shepard knows what's going to happen or not. As you said, we control Shepard's actions. If we perform a renegade action, we get renegade points, and vise-versa. Being in a relationship should not give us renegade points just because it could affect our decisions in a negative way. When we make the renegade decision, then give us the renegade points; not before, not after. 

For all you know, being in a relationship could positively affect performance. There's no definite way of knowing. Too many variables, too many variables!

[Sticky Controller]

There is a lot of things in the game that doesn't follow the code of the military. I'd say some things change in the future. Besides, Shepard isn't technically working for the Alliance at the moment.

[Golden Owl]

Well speaking from the perspective for the fact that my manShep is romance free (that is due to lack of interest in the choices though)....Militarily wise you are dead right and those rules are there for good reason....but honestly, I don't think it should really incur renegade points. Though Shep is a military wo/man s/he is in a rather unique situation, with a unique squad....the squad majority are not Military and Shep would not really be able to run them in that fashion, a differnet approach is required. As to how much this difference should reflect in Sheps own personal choices...such as romance....that is a hard one to answer. As you mentioned and I see as the greatest problem, Shep possibly putting the needs of the LI before the needs, safety of the crew, other squaddies, mission, etc....

[CheeseEnchilada]

It's addressed in ME1 if you romance the VS, I believe. And it's technically a civilian ship in ME2.

Besides, I don't see fraternization charges being brought up on Shepard anyway. There's bigger things to worry about, like the whole 'blowing up a star system' thing and the property damage that occurs whenever Shepard drives.

As for the morality of it? No one else seems to mind and it doesn't seem to undermine Shepard's authority. Also, it's a video game and romances are fun.

[MeAndMySandvich]

l DryIce l wrote...
stuff

Conflict of interest is not only reason why ban fraternization. Also because of morale, asymmetrical relationship, and chain of command. The rule exists for a reason in real world, and is strange that Mass Effect ignore it in games after first.

[l DryIce l]

Eddo36 wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

Shepard follows his own rules

Rules are made for a reason. Otherwise, who needs rules? Will you be happy if your manager is married to your co-worker rival?

I don't think anyone is implying that rules are useless or have no reason. Fact is, Shepard was a Spectre in ME1 and was given full control of the mission (well, pretty much) in ME2. Sometimes it's more effective to work without being burdened by unecessary rules. 

Most of the time, rules help. But Shepard is a commander, not some worker or a merc who needs to be told what to do. Shepard can handle himself/herself just fine. 

[SpiderFan1217]

Screw the rules, Shepard has money.

(9,999,999 cr to be exact.)

[l DryIce l]

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...
stuff

Conflict of interest is not only reason why ban fraternization. Also because of morale, asymmetrical relationship, and chain of command. The rule exists for a reason in real world, and is strange that Mass Effect ignore it in games after first.

I realize that the rule is good to have, as it's impossible to look at every single case and make judgement that way. But Shepard is a special case, isn't he/she? We know Shepard has extraordinary leadership capabilities, so to assume he/she doesn't have the power to make rational decisions, while maintaining a relationship (i.e. by giving the player renegade points) makes the whole role-playing aspect of the game suffer. 

As I've said before, the renegade points should be given if and when the renegade decision is made. Renegade points should not be given if Shepard pursues a relationship that may or may not affect decision making skills. 

[MeAndMySandvich]

l DryIce l wrote...

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...
stuff

Conflict of interest is not only reason why ban fraternization. Also because of morale, asymmetrical relationship, and chain of command. The rule exists for a reason in real world, and is strange that Mass Effect ignore it in games after first.

I realize that the rule is good to have, as it's impossible to look at every single case and make judgement that way. But Shepard is a special case, isn't he/she? We know Shepard has extraordinary leadership capabilities, so to assume he/she doesn't have the power to make rational decisions, while maintaining a relationship (i.e. by giving the player renegade points) makes the whole role-playing aspect of the game suffer. 

As I've said before, the renegade points should be given if and when the renegade decision is made. Renegade points should not be given if Shepard pursues a relationship that may or may not affect decision making skills. 

Did you read post? Fraternization causes problems by self, because bad for morale. If Mass Effect 2 better-written, Jack or Jacob (for example) would trust orders of Shepard less if Shepard tap ass of Miranda. And making Tali sick or die because Shepard not able to keep space zipper closed is huge abuse of authority.

[ladyvader]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Screw the rules, Shepard has money.

(9,999,999 cr to be exact.)

It would be way more than the 9.999 million credits.  That is the cap, trust me, my Shepard earned a heck of a lot more than 10 million credits. 

[ISpeakTheTruth]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Screw the rules, Shepard has money.

(9,999,999 cr to be exact.)

Yugioh abridged how I love you.

Anyway it may be morally iffy but Shepard saving the galaxy twice more than takes care of that.

[DaringMoosejaw]

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

Did you read post? Fraternization causes problems by self, because bad for morale. If Mass Effect 2 better-written, Jack or Jacob (for example) would trust orders of Shepard less if Shepard tap ass of Miranda. And making Tali sick or die because Shepard not able to keep space zipper closed is huge abuse of authority.

What's this? Stilted hokey english even though the words are spelled fine, overexaggerated criticism with an air of smug-know-it-all-ness...

...is that you, Rubbish Hero?

[l DryIce l]

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...
stuff

Conflict of interest is not only reason why ban fraternization. Also because of morale, asymmetrical relationship, and chain of command. The rule exists for a reason in real world, and is strange that Mass Effect ignore it in games after first.

I realize that the rule is good to have, as it's impossible to look at every single case and make judgement that way. But Shepard is a special case, isn't he/she? We know Shepard has extraordinary leadership capabilities, so to assume he/she doesn't have the power to make rational decisions, while maintaining a relationship (i.e. by giving the player renegade points) makes the whole role-playing aspect of the game suffer. 

As I've said before, the renegade points should be given if and when the renegade decision is made. Renegade points should not be given if Shepard pursues a relationship that may or may not affect decision making skills. 

Did you read post? Fraternization causes problems by self, because bad for morale. If Mass Effect 2 better-written, Jack or Jacob (for example) would trust orders of Shepard less if Shepard tap ass of Miranda. And making Tali sick or die because Shepard not able to keep space zipper closed is huge abuse of authority.

[sigh] Yes, I read your post. 

What is in bold are the assumptions you are making. Things that are not evident in the game. And when we're considering whether or not relationships should be considered renegade, we need to look at the issue within the context of the game, not real-life. 

In the game, Jack/Jacob show absolutely no sign (i.e. 0) of trusting Shepard less if Shepard romances Miranda. Jacob actually addresses this issue specifically if you...talk to him (dun dun dun). They follow his orders through and through. Whether you think they should have or not doesn't matter, because it's ultimately up to the writers to decide how the characters interact with Shepard and each other. 

And as for Tali: it was clear that a lot of preparation was taken before the romance took place. There was no risk of her dying, and it's not an abuse of authority if Tali wants the relationship as well (she clearly did). There was a risk of her getting sick, but it was nothing that affected her performance or the mission. I see no need for renegade points there. 

Modifié par l DryIce l, 12 juillet 2011 - 04:57 .

[MeAndMySandvich]

l DryIce l wrote...

it's ultimately up to the writers to decide how the characters interact with Shepard and each other. 

People in Mass Effect should act like real people. When they do not, is bad writing. Not too complex.

l DryIce l wrote...

And as for Tali: it was clear that a lot of preparation taken before the
romance took place. There was no risk of her dying, and it's not an
abuse of authority if Tali wants the relationship as well (she clearly did). There was a risk of her getting sick, but it was nothing that affected her performance or the mission. I see no need for renegade points there. 

And Shepard know this how? I get that Bioware writers think herbal tea is cure for lore, but there is no good excuse for screw woman who might die from it, or get sick when need to be in peak condition to survive.

[MeAndMySandvich]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

...is that you, Rubbish Hero?

No.

[jeweledleah]

its not morally wrong, unless you superior officer forces a relationship by dangling promotion... or refusing it, or something of that nature - in other words sexual harassment. relationship between consenting adults cannot be morally wrong.

as for work ethic and effectiveness? Both Shepard and whichever LI know better then that. and since its a game? you don't even get an option to tell them secrets that aren't Shepard's to tell (like confidential information, orders, etc)