174 réponses à ce sujet

[ItsTheTruth]

Theagg wrote...

And since I have little interest in playing as a dwarf or elf, that reduced the packages available down to two in my playthrough.(Human noble vs human magi). Just one more choice than DA2.

Just one more choice for you. A lot more choices for all DA:O players.

[Serpieri Nei]

ItsTheTruth wrote...

Theagg wrote...

And since I have little interest in playing as a dwarf or elf, that reduced the packages available down to two in my playthrough.(Human noble vs human magi). Just one more choice than DA2.

Just one more choice for you. A lot more choices for all DA:O players.

Definately, a lot more - still haven't even played Human mage on Origins - never really cared for Humans in video games.

[DarkDragon777]

I doubt it. That would be terrible role-playing. Hawke is supposed to be your character as well. If he/she became your companion, then he/she would have a predefined personality, which would make the way you created him/her terribly irrelevant.

[Shuma Gorath]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

ItsTheTruth wrote...

Theagg wrote...

And since I have little interest in playing as a dwarf or elf, that reduced the packages available down to two in my playthrough.(Human noble vs human magi). Just one more choice than DA2.

Just one more choice for you. A lot more choices for all DA:O players.

Definately, a lot more - still haven't even played Human mage on Origins - never really cared for Humans in video games.

Huuumaans are boring.

[Theagg]

ItsTheTruth wrote...

Theagg wrote...

And since I have little interest in playing as a dwarf or elf, that reduced the packages available down to two in my playthrough.(Human noble vs human magi). Just one more choice than DA2.

Just one more choice for you. A lot more choices for all DA:O players.

A lot more ?

No, you mean just four more. Or only 5 more than Hawke. Which is the real point, two more, four more, or 5 more do not equate to 'blank slate'. Nothing like it at all. It's limited.

Blank slate is more like this. I walk into a game, the GM sets up the scenario and I fill in the section on my character sheet entitled 'back history' with anything I so desire. Warden the farmer, Warden the deckhand, warden from the ranks, warden the merchant on the run. Whatever I so choose as their starting point. I start blank and simply imagine my Origins.

Not the mere six choices I am given. Or two since I have no interest in being dwarf or elf. But, you know, six of half a dozen of the other, the game still constrains. However, if you want to imagine those mere 5 extra choices you have over and above the single choice of Hawke somehow amount to a world of difference, or are what defines role playing, then fine.

[Sutekh]

Theagg wrote...

A lot more ?

No, you mean just four more. Or only 5 more than Hawke. Which is the real point, two more, four more, or 5 more do not equate to 'blank slate'. Nothing like it at all. It's limited.

Blank slate is more like this. I walk into a game, the GM sets up the scenario and I fill in the section on my character sheet entitled 'back history' with anything I so desire. Warden the farmer, Warden the deckhand, warden from the ranks, warden the merchant on the run. Whatever I so choose as their starting point. I start blank and simply imagine my Origins.

Not the mere six choices I am given. Or two since I have no interest in being dwarf or elf. But, you know, six of half a dozen of the other, the game still constrains. However, if you want to imagine those mere 5 extra choices you have over and above the single choice of Hawke somehow amount to a world of difference, or are what defines role playing, then fine.

Everything is limited. As soon as you have a set of rules, limitations ensue. Even in your PnP example up there, you're limited to the settings of the game you're playing: I can't play an elf in Vampire, or a software dev in AD&D. The one and only way to have no limitations, is to create something from scratch, without any rules whatsoever. I don't know that it's feasible for an RPG (but it could fun experimenting).

So considering this, the problem isn't limitations or lack thereof but the amount of limitations. Reducing the starting possibilities to one single race means four less possibilities than DAO. That's a lot, considering replayability and combinations. You might not see it as a problem because you don't like playing other races, but for those who do, it is. Consider yourself lucky. Honest question: what would you have thought if you had been forced to play a dwarf or an elf instead of a human?

So it isn't blank slate against prewritten slate, but how much room is left on the slate for us to make that character our own. I had no real problem with Hawke in that regard, but I was (very) disappointed at the lack of races, and I can understand people may feel they're not left enough room.

[Theagg]

Sutekh wrote...

Everything is limited. As soon as you have a set of rules, limitations ensue. Even in your PnP example up there, you're limited to the settings of the game you're playing: I can't play an elf in Vampire, or a software dev in AD&D. The one and only way to have no limitations, is to create something from scratch, without any rules whatsoever. I don't know that it's feasible for an RPG (but it could fun experimenting).

So considering this, the problem isn't limitations or lack thereof but the amount of limitations. Reducing the starting possibilities to one single race means four less possibilities than DAO. That's a lot, considering replayability and combinations. You might not see it as a problem because you don't like playing other races, but for those who do, it is. Consider yourself lucky. Honest question: what would you have thought if you had been forced to play a dwarf or an elf instead of a human?

So it isn't blank slate against prewritten slate, but how much room is left on the slate for us to make that character our own. I had no real problem with Hawke in that regard, but I was (very) disappointed at the lack of races, and I can understand people may feel they're not left enough room.

Yep sure, I would have loved to play through Origins as Thor. I was denied that choice but so what ?

I mean, interesting what you are arguing but its pure straw man.

But back to the actual point I was making. That contrary to the claim that Origins enabled us to start as a blank slate character, whereas DA2 somehow failed in this respect, Origins itself gave no such option. And post the Origin story, from Ostagar onwards the sense of role playing difference between the 6 choices you were given all but vanished, that difference existing almost soley in your head as opposed to in game.

It was as simple as that.

And yes, if the game gave me no choice but to play as an elf or dwarf I would play that game and not be feeling cheated about my inability to play as a human. I can manage that quite easilyB)

[Sutekh]

Theagg wrote...

Yep sure, I would have loved to play through Origins as Thor. I was denied that choice but so what ?

I mean, interesting what you are arguing but its pure straw man.

OK. Way to miss the point there. I was actually agreeing with you on the blank slate thing, only not with your PnP example. Trying to explain (and apparently failing) that it's not really a pure blank slate question, because there are no such things. But never mind.

But back to the actual point I was making. That contrary to the claim that Origins enabled us to start as a blank slate character, whereas DA2 somehow failed in this respect, Origins itself gave no such option. And post the Origin story, from Ostagar onwards the sense of role playing difference between the 6 choices you were given all but vanished, that difference existing almost soley in your head as opposed to in game.

Did you play other origins than Human? If not, didn't you play Noble and Mage? Didn't you notice the difference? Because what is bolded is simply not true. I could give you several examples when things played differently depending on origin. And, more importantly, those differences were enough, for some including myself, to justify another playthrough with another origin, and make the Warden more "unique". They weren't differences in result, but in dialog and NPCs reaction, which are the bulk of roleplaying (you can have branching and choices with other types of game, after all).

I had very intense moments in DAO which were due to my origin only: Howe's confrontation, the Soris and Shianni dialogs for a City Elf, the return of Tamlen for a Dalish, only to name some. I haven't played a dwarf yet, but I'm pretty sure Orzammar plays differently then. Being treated differently depending on race, too. Those moments were important on a pure roleplaying point of view. They are what got me hooked on the game.

In DA2, I am not treated differently. Not even if I am a freaking mage, except on a very few occasions. Not saying Hawke is fixed, because they're not, but it's more difficult to "personnalize" them. Btw, I don't hate Hawke, and I can roleplay him just fine. I just regret not being able to roleplay him - or his elven / dwarven equivalent - even better.

So no, the Warden isn't a blank slate, but they're a much blanker slate than Hawke.




And... to get back on topic, nope, no Hawke as the Warden's companion and no Warden either for DA3 for me. I would love the latter, but it would be nearly impossible to pull and satisfy everyone. The former would mean an NPC Hawke, so really not. I wouldn't mind cameos based on import, though. I certainly don't want either to disappear into Oblivion.

This said, and because I love to contradict myself:

AstoundingArcaneArcher wrote...

Didn't Bioware state that the Warden's tale ended when he/she sank the blade into the Archdemon?[/b]

Little problem there.

Only if the Warden made the US and died. If they lived we have:

"But these are tales yet to be told. This tale ended when [the Warden] sank his/her blade in the archdemon's head and destroyed it forever. It was not the last that Ferelden would hear of him/her, however..."
(emphasis not mine)

Quite different 

[The Edge]

That... might actually be pretty cool!

Bunch of hoops to jump through (in regards to any retcons or plotholes that could happen), but I'll leave that to the writers

[erynnar]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

I doubt it. That would be terrible role-playing. Hawke is supposed to be your character as well. If he/she became your companion, then he/she would have a predefined personality, which would make the way you created him/her terribly irrelevant.

Sorry, but picking between Happy, Sneezy/Douche, and Angry Douche did not make my Hawke terribly relevant. She is already irrelevant, terribly so. Picking her dialogue for the cut aways scenes really didn't make her sigificant enough for me. BioWare already pre-defined Hawke a lot. What is predefining her/him a little more and making them a companion going to do? Not much. 

I don't want Hawke or my Wardens back at all.  Let's clear the slate, and start with someone new.

[Fedorcyclops]

No Warden is fine, but i would be disappointed
but Hawke is a big no no. can't stand any game focus on him and his companions

[mitchhunter]

It's pretty clear to me that the only way to end this series properly is by putting OGB in the hands of the player. This would finally enable us to make choices of the good versus evil variety, instead of just a 'means to an end' in DAO (where it never really affected the end result) or picking sides in the Chantry/Circle conflict (which never felt important enough to truly draw me in).

If they feel compelled to draw said conflict to its conclusion, then let us play a Tevinter character on either side. I'd love to see Orlais but in no way would I want to play an Orlesian - it wouldn't be unfeasible to see the game end in Val Royeaux, what with the Divine being seated there and all.

[Icy Magebane]

How about we not do anything with the OGB because my Warden didn't allow it to be created? OGB is not canon and could not have happened without the Dark Ritual...

[Blessed Silence]

I'd do it, but alas .. since no ending with Sebastian don't know if my mage would have him if she came back.

I'd rather whole new hero(ine) for DA3

[mitchhunter]

I wouldn't mind pissing off everyone who didn't allow for the Dark Ritual to happen to enable OGB to star in the series finale. OGB has all the makings of a spectacular character, and I think most would agree that playing Hawke, a farmer who just so happened to get himself mixed up in some semi-important events and more or less by accident shaped the course of said events in DA2, wasn't half as intriguing or immersive as playing the Warden, who had the fate of Ferelden on his shoulders. It is entirely plausible that OGB is powerful enough to impose substantial consequence on the whole of Thedas, and it would be up to the player to decide in what direction he/she wants to take it.

Modifié par mitchhunter, 18 juillet 2011 - 06:34 .

[Ninjacat513]

The Warden returning as the protagonist for DA3 wouldn't work lorewise. Especially for those that chose to kill off their Warden in the end of DA:O. Besides, depending on the length of time after the events of DA2 to DA3, your Warden may have kissed the sun goodbye and gone to the Deep Roads to die due to the taint.

[xkg]

Ninjacat513 wrote...

The Warden returning as the protagonist for DA3 wouldn't work lorewise. Especially for those that chose to kill off their Warden in the end of DA:O. Besides, depending on the length of time after the events of DA2 to DA3, your Warden may have kissed the sun goodbye and gone to the Deep Roads to die due to the taint.

Yes one of my Wardens died at the end of DAO but he was resurected for Awakening and he is allright now.
Awakening can resurect my warden, DA3 can.

And the Calling. It takes 30 years for Warden to start hearing it. It is is now maybe 12 years (at the end of DA2) since my Warden's joining ritual so i see no problem here.

[Ninjacat513]

Choosing to play a character that died isn't really in the spirit of an rpg, since there was no real reason for them to be back. ;P

And I stand corrected on the calling/taint.

Regardless, I think that Bioware will not have the Warden playable/making an appearance because it would be hard to truely recreate your image of what you wanted the Warden to be using a voice actor, new model, etc. People would be more disappointed than pleased. No doubt they will be mentioned, though.

Modifié par Ninjacat513, 18 juillet 2011 - 08:55 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

Icy Magebane wrote...

How about we not do anything with the OGB because my Warden didn't allow it to be created? OGB is not canon and could not have happened without the Dark Ritual...

This. I would be very disappointed if they 'created' the OGB another way after my warden refused. Also, David Gaider said this on the subject.  

Modifié par Yellow Words, 18 juillet 2011 - 09:38 .

[Sir Edric]

I think they should have Hawke again. He's story isn't finished (If BW doesn't give us a DLC/expansion, that is).

Plus, have you even thought about how our Warden's gonna look like in DA3? He's gonna look horrible. He's gonna look like Alistair or even worse.

Warden's journey has ended. DA3 should just go more deep into what Flemeth's and Morrigan talks about, with the Warden having a bigger to the connection to it, but not being there physically. Besides my Warden is dead, and I don't want the Orleasian Warden having a greater role than my Warden, that's just stupid.

[Ninjacat513]

I agree with the above post.

Plus, I would blow up the Bioware building (Anders style) if they just left me hanging there with, "Haha, I'm going to let you romance Anders finally, then I'm going to kick your Hawke out of Kirkwall right after the boss fight. Heh, Anders can go with you." without telling me WHAT happened to my Hawke, or WHERE they went. *Twitch*

And to the Hawke haters...

You obviously have never played a sarcastic F!Hawke ;3

[phoenixgoddess27]

Ninjacat513 wrote...

I agree with the above post.

Plus, I would blow up the Bioware building (Anders style) if they just left me hanging there with, "Haha, I'm going to let you romance Anders finally, then I'm going to kick your Hawke out of Kirkwall right after the boss fight. Heh, Anders can go with you." without telling me WHAT happened to my Hawke, or WHERE they went. *Twitch*

And to the Hawke haters...

You obviously have never played a sarcastic F!Hawke ;3

And if we have? I still didn't like her.
How a character feels about the Warden or Hawke is completely their opinion. No matter how lame sarcastic they were.

For starters, that's exactly what happened to some Wardens. My Warden disappeared just like Hawke and it was said their tale has not ended, yet. And for those who didn't go through the mirror or the did the US, the Warden is seen picking up an important book. They both disappeared, as Leliana; the immortal, stated at the end of Dragon Age 2. But there's so many plot holes that it's possible a black hole sucked them up and they were onboard with the Shepherd.

The question is, "Hawke as the Warden's companion in DA3?" which has nothing to do with a "sarcastic F!Hawke". But to be fair to you, sarcastic F!Hawke did have some good lines.


I would prefer a new protagonist that will at least find out the reason behind the disappearances.

On topic -- Bioware has retconned before, but retconning a major character like the Warden would need a bit of an explanation. But for those who didn't do the US, as long as I had my Warden, Hawke could be a sidekick, a doormat to keep my Warden's feet clean, a puppet, I don't mind, as long as Hawke isn't the main character.

Modifié par phoenixgoddess27, 18 juillet 2011 - 01:00 .

[AstoundingArcaneArcher]

Sutekh wrote...

Theagg wrote...

Yep sure, I would have loved to play through Origins as Thor. I was denied that choice but so what ?

I mean, interesting what you are arguing but its pure straw man.

OK. Way to miss the point there. I was actually agreeing with you on the blank slate thing, only not with your PnP example. Trying to explain (and apparently failing) that it's not really a pure blank slate question, because there are no such things. But never mind.

But back to the actual point I was making. That contrary to the claim that Origins enabled us to start as a blank slate character, whereas DA2 somehow failed in this respect, Origins itself gave no such option. And post the Origin story, from Ostagar onwards the sense of role playing difference between the 6 choices you were given all but vanished, that difference existing almost soley in your head as opposed to in game.

Did you play other origins than Human? If not, didn't you play Noble and Mage? Didn't you notice the difference? Because what is bolded is simply not true. I could give you several examples when things played differently depending on origin. And, more importantly, those differences were enough, for some including myself, to justify another playthrough with another origin, and make the Warden more "unique". They weren't differences in result, but in dialog and NPCs reaction, which are the bulk of roleplaying (you can have branching and choices with other types of game, after all).

I had very intense moments in DAO which were due to my origin only: Howe's confrontation, the Soris and Shianni dialogs for a City Elf, the return of Tamlen for a Dalish, only to name some. I haven't played a dwarf yet, but I'm pretty sure Orzammar plays differently then. Being treated differently depending on race, too. Those moments were important on a pure roleplaying point of view. They are what got me hooked on the game.

In DA2, I am not treated differently. Not even if I am a freaking mage, except on a very few occasions. Not saying Hawke is fixed, because they're not, but it's more difficult to "personnalize" them. Btw, I don't hate Hawke, and I can roleplay him just fine. I just regret not being able to roleplay him - or his elven / dwarven equivalent - even better.

So no, the Warden isn't a blank slate, but they're a much blanker slate than Hawke.




And... to get back on topic, nope, no Hawke as the Warden's companion and no Warden either for DA3 for me. I would love the latter, but it would be nearly impossible to pull and satisfy everyone. The former would mean an NPC Hawke, so really not. I wouldn't mind cameos based on import, though. I certainly don't want either to disappear into Oblivion.

This said, and because I love to contradict myself:

AstoundingArcaneArcher wrote...

Didn't Bioware state that the Warden's tale ended when he/she sank the blade into the Archdemon?[/b]

Little problem there.

Only if the Warden made the US and died. If they lived we have:

"But these are tales yet to be told. This tale ended when [the Warden] sank his/her blade in the archdemon's head and destroyed it forever. It was not the last that Ferelden would hear of him/her, however..."
(emphasis not mine)

Quite different 

I stand corrected, good sir.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I would love to play a game with my Warden and Hawke as a companion. That would be so cool.

I guess players who did the US are forgetting if the Maker wants a player alive then the player will be alive some how - some way, he is the creator. If it's the Maker's will then he will do it. The lore is there to make this happen. All the Maker needs is a small piece of you.

Also per companions that you might have killed off, there is always the explanation that after you walked away an apostate healing mage could have come along and healed your companion or revived them.

Wynne's spirit healer will keep her alive. Anders has Ser Pounce A Lot, Leliana is killed at the ashes and Andraste herself could have revived her,; she is also a Rogue and she could use the Feign Death. How many apostate healing mages are walking around the whole of Thedas that we don't know about that could have been nearby to heal the killed companion(s).

We've also seen by Flemeth that some mages have the knowledge on how to save their life. We also know this from the first game in the ruin where we do the quest to unlock Arcane Warrior. All a person really needs is some sort of life gem. Was Ser Pounce Alot a life gem of a sort?

In DA2 we don't see what happens with Ander's body, the warden could have been nearby and used Ser Pounce to revive him, since a live warden could be anywhere.

I also found it interesting in the Cassandra's cutscene for the new dlc, that the chantry does not like the Grey Wardens.

Personally, I would love to see a game with the Wardens and the Chantry at each other's throats. With "ALL" companions included in that game. That would be awesome. With Hawke's story this could happen with Anders being a companion of both. Just my thoughts on the subject anyway.

One thing that I do want is an explantion on what happened to my Warden.  Did I go to an eluvian mirror and change my appearance and become someone else?  Has Flemeth gained a piece of me somehow in killing the archdemon and I'm now her or Morrigan's puppet to be used at their whim? 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 18 juillet 2011 - 03:02 .

[Addai]

Ninjacat513 wrote...

And to the Hawke haters...

You obviously have never played a sarcastic F!Hawke ;3

Yes I did, it was the only playthrough that made any sense, and it just reinforces the fact that Hawke is a big douche.  Hawke smirking her way through life while Kirkwall burns around her-  I'm supposed to like that protagonist?  Not any more than I liked b*tch Hawke or boring, stale goody-two-shoes.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 juillet 2011 - 03:22 .