96 réponses à ce sujet

[Sshodan]

@ Ryzaki
I strongly recall having 2 more sqadmates and a great deal of bullets, which is not exactly a biotic duel one on one. One on one without weapon Benezia would have eaten Shep alive
It seams you believe that biotic power comes form implants, but that is not true, which was stated on more than one occasion. Biotic potential - the power, comes form the person, form their genetic makeup, to upgrade ones biotical potential they would have had to rewrite Shep on genetic level, which will mean it is not Shep any more.
The implants are a tool that allows biotic to use that power, a hammer, not the hand that swings it. So there is only so much upgrading that can be done - after the maximum output is achieved (implant allows the person to use their full potential) all they can do further is upgrade control, safety and so on, but adding power is beyond the implants abilities.
So again - Sheps power level is roughly the same it has always been, Shep may have gained more control, abilities became easier to use and so one, but the potential is still the same.
If you recall Jack and Gilian you'll notice that after certain level the biotics are usually not exactly right in the head, probably because a human brain is not build for that power to begin with.
Shep is the best balance point - the max amount of power one can get without going crazy. If we equaled to an assari commando before, than we are roughly on the same level now.

@ Wizz
No it is mentioned that asari have biotics naturally, I believe they reproduction mind meld is based on them. I may be wrong about the second part, but the first was mentioned in Revelation - all asari have biotic abilities, but soem chose not to develope them, which keeps them out of military service.
Biotics in humans thou, are the result of exposure.

Modifié par Sshodan, 12 juillet 2011 - 08:55 .

[100k]

About as strong as Cpt. Wasea? Sounds about right. Stronger than Kaiden and Miranda, not quite as strong as Samara, no where near as strong as Jack, though maybe a bit more precise.

[Ahriman]

In my opinion Jack is stronger than Samara. I mean that point of Cerberus' project is creationg most powerfull biotic, more powerfull than any asari. Human dominance and all that stuff.

Sshodan wrote...
@ Wizz
No it is mentioned that asari have biotics naturally, I believe they reproduction mind meld is based on them. I may be wrong about the second part, but the first was mentioned in several places.
Biotics in humans thou, are the result of exposure.

But all biotic use small parts of eezero in their body to create biotic fields, it cannot be synthesized naturally. Ok, I'm confused.

[Ryzaki]

Sshodan wrote...

@ Ryzaki
I strongly recall having 2 more sqadmates and a great deal of bullets, which is not exactly a biotic duel one on one. One on one without weapon Benezia would have eaten Shep alive
It seams you believe that biotic power comes form implants, but that is not true, which was stated on more than one occasion. Biotic potential - the power, comes form the person, form their genetic makeup, to upgrade ones biotical potential they would have had to rewrite Shep on genetic level, which will mean it is not Shep any more.
The implants are a tool that allows biotic to use that power, a hammer, not the hand that swings it. So there is only so much upgrading that can be done - after the maximum output is achieved (implant allows the person to use their full potential) all they can do further is upgrade control, safety and so on, but adding power is beyond the implants abilities.

I never said he killed her alone. You can do that fight as a soldier with Tali and Garrus so no biotics required. 

And do not forget that Benezia had a squad of Geth and Commandos helping her. It certainly wasn't a three on one fight.  

Since when did biotic potential come from genetics?  You realize the reason that there's even human biotics is because of those eezo "accidents" right? Humans do not naturally become biotics. Not without help. Now the Asari might have it in their genes (as may the Krogan) but not humans. 

It's not just the implants. Its the amount  of eezo one is exposed too and if they manage to survive it. Something that is easily controllable wih a hunk of meat that Shepard would be while Cerberus is rebuilding him. So they probably could modify and add power. (It's what they did to Jack). 

Once a person has been identified as having biotic ability, they must be outfitted with a surgically implanted amplifier, usually installed around the time of puberty, in order to make their talents strong enough to be useful. They must then develop conscious control over their nervous system, which is a long, slow, difficult ordeal (except for the asari, who possess a degree of control naturally). Biofeedback therapy is commonly used to aid in this process. Once trained, a biotic can generate and control dark energy to move objects, generate protective barriers, or restrain enemies. Biotic abilities are activated using a technique called "physical mnemonics", in which the biotic uses a physical gesture to cause neurons to fire in a certain sequence, sending an electrical charge through their eezo nodules and creating the desired effect. A biotic may enhance certain aspects of his or her biotic abilities by installing implant upgrades called bio-amps.

After a series of starship accidents in the 2150s which dispersed element zero over populated areas, the first human biotics were born, though their abilities were not recognized right away. By the time these children were teenagers, the Alliance had made contact with the Citadel and learned of the effects of in-utero eezo exposure. A company called Conatix Industries was founded to track down exposed individuals and develop implants for humans. There are rumours that, after the link between eezo and biotics was discovered, some human colonies were deliberately exposed to dust-form element zero to create more biotic children.

From this page. 

So again - Sheps power level is roughly the same it has always been, Shep may have gained more control, abilities became easier to use and so one, but the potential is still the same.
If you recall Jack and Gilian you'll notice that after certain level the biotics are usually not exactly right in the head, probably because a human brain is not build for that power to begin with.
Shep is the best balance point - the max amount of power one can get without going crazy. If we equaled to an assari commando before, than we are roughly on the same level now.

I'm pretty sure Shep's power level isn't the same. 

It's because they're brain degrades because they're exposed to it while being whole. Their bodies can't be tweaked to accomdate it. 

Shep probably is the balance point that the current technology can reach. I highly doubt he's on the same level now. 

Nope they're not here's a power list

L1. These biotics can manipulate small objects, but their abilities are not strong enough to be offensively viable, because the L1s were implanted after puberty.
L2.L2. The L2 implants were first implemented in 2167. The results vary wildly - some L2s are hardly stronger than an L1, others are strong but unstable, while a few are powerful and stable enough for combat, though they usually suffer some discomfort from their implants. L2s are all around the same age.
L3. L3. In 2170, the L3 implant was developed. L3 biotics are consistently stable with moderate ability; while their upper limit is less than an L2, L3s are safe from dangerous side effects. Because of the implementation date, most L3s are 25 or younger. Some are older, having been implanted later in life.
L3-R. Short for 'L3-retrofit', this is an L1 or L2 who has undergone extremely dangerous brain surgery to replace their implant with a newer model.
L3-X. Implants installed in an unsuitable candidate.
L4. A new implant used on the children in the Ascension Project; these implants use biotic amplifiers with built-in VI interfaces to enable external monitoring and enhance the user's abilities. L4 implants give a 10-15% increase in power over L3s in 90% of subjects with no currently known side effects.
L5x. In Mass Effect 2, Adepts are outfitted with L5x implants.
L5n. In Mass Effect 2, Vanguards are outfitted with L5n implants.
 Biotic Extremists Edit

From the Wiki
And knowing Cerberus there's just no way they'd give Shepard a weaker implant if they thought a stronger one could still keep him sane. They see Shepard as a part of their human domniance project as surely as any other of their experiments. They would wan the first human spectre, savior of the galaxy to be as strong as possible for humanities "image". 

I'm kind of scared what they did to poor Shep now. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 juillet 2011 - 09:07 .

[Sshodan]

@ Wizz
Well it is stated in Revelation (ME book) that all asari are biotics, some do not develop the abilities, which is ok as long as they don't want to be in a military. How they get the ezero in their bodies I don't know, maybe they naturally have it like we have calcium, who knows? How can they connect to another persons neural system and read their DNA? I do not know, but they obveouse do that. It was stated that they are natural biotics, it's all I know.

[100k]

Here's how I think the strength levels are:

12. Wrex
11. Jacob
10. Thane
9. Miranda
8. Kaiden
7. Saren
6. Shepard
5. Vasir
4. Liara
3. Samara - Aria
2. Benezia
1. Jack

*edited - I also made Saren stronger than Kaiden and Miranda. They may all be pretty close power wise, but sheer experience with biotics is clearly Saren.

Modifié par 100k, 13 juillet 2011 - 12:33 .

[Sshodan]

@ Ryzaki
It comes from genetics because to become a biotic one has to be exposed to ezero while bing in their mothers womb - an embryo, adult people just die when exposed and don't develop anything unless they had biotic ability already, the process is called mutation - it alters a person on genetic level. If it goes to fare the baby deforms or dies, if it's just enough influence the mutation is actually useful.
Did you notice that while there was only 3 cases of mass exposure biotics are born even today. One may say it is because of new small accidental exposures, but with the mortality rate of the firs 3 that is realistically unlikely. What is likely is the munition being passed along to the future generations, which allows the children to absorb ezero with a greater rate of success, so the ability slowly becomes a part of human gene pool.
This thou does not remove the limit - there is only as much a human being can absorb before dying or going crazy.
I played both MEs as Adept, and did not notice any increase in Sheps abilities in comparison, so I am assuming they remained the same. A simple fact of gameplay.

@ 100k
I'm inclined to agree with your list, except I don't think that jack is more powerful than an Asari matriarch.

Modifié par Sshodan, 12 juillet 2011 - 09:13 .

[Ryzaki]

Sshodan wrote...

@ Ryzaki
It comes from genetics because to become a biotic one has to be exposed to ezero while bing in their mothers womb - an embryo, adult people just die when exposed and don't develop anything unless they had biotic ability already, the process is called mutation - it alters a person on genetic level. If it goes to fare the baby deforms or dies, if it's just enough influence the mutation is actually useful.
Did you notice that while there was only 3 cases of mass exposure biotics are born even today. One may say it is because of new small accidental exposures, but with the mortality rate of the firs 3 that is realistically unlikely. What is likely is the munition being passed along to the future generations, which allows the children to absorb ezero with a greater rate of success, so the ability slowly becomes a part of human gene pool.
This thou does not remove the limit - there is only as much a human being can absorb before dying or going crazy.
I played both MEs as Adept, and did not notice any increase in Sheps abilities in comparison, so I am assuming they remained the same. A simple fact of gameplay.

Wait. So you're saying it *is* unnatural then? Because being expoed to eezo while in the mother womb changes the child's genetic structure? As for dying. I've said it already 5 times. Shep was already dead. <_< They couldn't "kill" him again and I doubt you can make a dead person crazy. It would not be out of the realm of possiblity for them to tweak him enough to be able to take the extra load probably using Jack and Gillian as a base of reference and then trying to "awake" Shepard (for spare moments) to see if he survives/has normal brain functioning. (And frankly that whole "oh you're exactly the same." nonsense was headdesk inducing considering Shepard himself says that wasn't the case and if you bothered reading the upgrades.) If something is off pull the cord and start again. They had to rebuild his brain as well.  Is it really likely Cerberus the mad science squad didn't do some tweaking? Miranda was halfway on her way to putting a control chip in there! (and before you even bring up TIm's "bring you back just the way you were." that's debunked by Shepard himself. Shepard's word > TIM's in regards to Shep's body) I'd be surprised if they didn't screw with his nervous system and tweak him to have faster reflexes and better eyesight/hearing. With their humans should be the best slogan. They probably had to walk a fine line (tweak him...but not so much that he becomes a totally different person) God I wish the Lazarus project wasn't completely ignored. That really shoud've screwed with Shep's head more. More "WTF DID YOU DO TO ME!" would've been appreciated. 

And yet we've yet to see human biotics born without said exposure. 

Yes that's totally why Jack and Gillian exist. (they might be going crazy but they certainly aren't dead). Because there's a magical limit that can't ever be broken by mad scientists.  I'm certain there was a time people thought that limit couldn't be reached without the patient becoming totally broken. Jack maybe crazy but she does have a level of sanity (not to mention most of her crazy could be attributed to being tortured and abused. That might have something to do with it. Just sayin'. )

And of course you didn't notice an increase. Did you forget your enemies were stronger as well? Plus...gameplay. If we go by gameplay Shep's the only biotic that can crowd control and damage enemies handily. No enemy biotics save Harbinger are capable of singularity. None are able to lift/throw Shepard. They can't use warp bombs. They can't use shockwave (save Scions). If we use gameplay Sheps a much much better biotic than Jack or Samara. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 juillet 2011 - 09:36 .

[Sshodan]

@ Ryzaki
Yes, I am saying that biotics in humans are unnatural. A mutation. Sad it 10 times already.
No exposing an adult, no matter how dead will not make him a boitic, not even dead biotic, if he is not one already. It may amplify the abilities if he is, or kill him if he was alive and exposure was to much. And to resurrect him they'll have to bring the levels down again to the point when the living body can handle them.
The limit is not magical, it's biological - how much a body and mind can handle before shutting down. And no being dead would not help. ezero is not exactly conductive to good health if you did not notice, they may pack a corps with it but as soon as they try "resurrecting" it it'll "die" on them again. Much like some poisons - in limited dozes they can heal, give a patient to much and they die. The doze is always individual. some can handle more than others.
As for enemies being stronger... Do you mean that all asari commandos trained extra hard for 2 years for the sake of Sheps return? Game mechanic wise they may be stronger, but lore wise the world did not undergo a sudden upgrade to give Shep more challenge

[Ryzaki]

Sshodan wrote...

@ Ryzaki
Yes, I am saying that biotics in humans are unnatural. A mutation. Sad it 10 times already.
No exposing an adult, no matter how dead will not make him a boitic, not even dead biotic, if he is not one already. It may amplify the abilities if he is, or kill him if he was alive and exposure was to much. And to resurrect him they'll have to bring the levels down again to the point when the living body can handle them.
The limit is not magical, it's biological - how much a body and mind can handle before shutting down. And no being dead would not help. ezero is not exactly conductive to good health if you did not notice, they may pack a corps with it but as soon as they try "resurrecting" it it'll "die" on them again. Much like some poisons - in limited dozes they can heal, give a patient to much and they die. The doze is always individual. some can handle more than others.
As for enemies being stronger... Do you mean that all asari commandos trained extra hard for 2 years for the sake of Sheps return? Game mechanic wise they may be stronger, but lore wise the world did not undergo a sudden upgrade to give Shep more challenge

Actually you'd probably be wrong on that front.The scions are said to haven't been implanted with biotics until after "death" then again. Reaper tech. 

Though the exact fate of species captured by the Collectors is unclear, the humaniond appearance of the scions gives ghastly clues. The scion's frame and skull are similar to those of a human or asari, but the bone structure is overlaid with a metallic resin. Posthumous examination of their bodies reveals a skin tone resembling that of Reaper husks, but their transformation process seems more extensive. Like husks, they are cybernetically modified on a nano-scale so they can operate even in hard vacuum. Hoses rather thin veins and muscle tissue join major portions of the body together. One arm is replace with a construct that fits a large rifle, turning the creature into a humaniod weapons platform, and a fleshy sack is supported by the creature's back and head.

These sacks contain brain matter and spinal tissue, too much to have come from just one victim. This indicates scions are an amalgam of several individuals, with one primary victim providing the frame and several "secondaries" providing the flesh for a decentralized semi-mechanical nervous system. This decentralization makes them highly resistant to gunshot wounds; even a headshot is not a certain kill.

The scions' weapons, however, indicate that scions retain some living tissue, or at least sustain some of the same electrochemical reactions as those of a human biotic. The weapon creates a powerful warp effect, which is consistent with the eezo nodules visible in the scion's expansive nervous system. Given the rarity of human biotics, it seems likely that these dust-form eezo nodules are deposited during their transformation, rather than requiring a biotic victim in the first place.

It seems biotics can be implanted into "dead" creatures. Now can it be implanted into a dead creature and still retain humanity and sanity is another question. It might just be possible. With Reaper tech. Which Cerberus happens to enjoy tinkering with. 

And I'm talking about adept Shepard. Who would've already been a biotic. Nothing about Shepard's body in ME2 is "Average" so he would not need to have his levels brought down to the point where the average living body (the point about living body is already disprove by Gillian and Jack) can handle it. Again I'm not saying he's the strongest biotic ever. But he is stronger than he was originally. There just might be an antidote that would likely kill any living victim but can safely be given to a corpse and upon revival they will not die from the eezo exposure. And before you say "it's impossible!" so is recurrecting someone from the dead until Cerberus does it. 

Which is exactly why they'd tweak Shepard's body to accomdate it. If some people are better at higher limits than others. Obviously they'd use those invidiuals as a testmap to see what they'd need to do to tweak Shep's body to handle a higher input. 

As for Shepard...I'm highly inclined to see him as one of those invidiuals to start with. He's already using L3 implants like they're L2's with absolutely zero side effects. He's practically Cerberus' dream test subject. 

Nope morelike the implants and like increased (as did the quality of armor and shields) so yes everyone pretty much did level up by the time Shepard got back. Not to mention Shepard's fighting vastly more powerful enemies (the husks are newer and more advanced than the old ones, the collectors are new and so on). As well as being in a different area (more rife with crime so the people there woud have more experience fighting). 

I do wish Sheps power had come at a price though even if it's something as humorous as now needing the amount of food for 5 or more people to have enough energy to use his biotics. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 juillet 2011 - 09:53 .

[Sshodan]

@ Ryzaki
The amount of ezero one can handle is limited by DNA. Creberus did not change Shepards DNA because you can't change just one parameter - it's a complex interdependent system, change one thing and you need to change 10 others. In the end what they would have gotten would not be even close to Shepard anymore.. After 2 exposures adept Shep had all he/she can handle already at the time of ME1 so they did not have to bring anything down. But neither they could add more - DNA limit is still in place.
And no it was never mentioned that Shepard is any kind of biotical prodigy as Gilian or Jeck are, he/she is very strong, but not pushing any scientific limits. Why?
Since biotics in humans are not natural the over development of the trail obviously leads to side effects - Gilian is autistic, Jack is psychotic, it is a savant syndrome of a kind - they get very good at biotics at the expense of other brain functions. Since Shep is relatively sane and has all his wits about him/her I asume that it's not the case with the commander.
It is not Shepard's biotics that make him/her unique and needed by Cerberus. Cerberus has biotics, plenty of them and they would make more if they want to - first 3 accidents and Jack are their handwork after all. They need Shepard for the leadership qualities and personality, and thay would not risk loosing thous for random biotic experiment that may not work out - it's not like they can make another Shepard if they fail.
They gave Shep the best non experimental treatment - nice safe and checked. Which has advantages over the old version, but nothing to staggering. Shep is probably able to bit his/her own score now, but not by much.

Modifié par Sshodan, 12 juillet 2011 - 09:59 .

[Sshodan]

makalathbonagin wrote...

damn it, Ryzaki nobody will read all that

Can Shepard bio-fly ?
no then

Point Samara can, so she is better

[Ryzaki]

Sshodan wrote...

@ Ryzaki
The amount of ezero one can handle is limited by DNA. Creberus did not change Shepards DNA because you can't change just one parameter - it's a complex interdependent system, change one thing and you need to change 10 others. In the end what they would have gotten would not be even close to Shepard anymore.. After 2 exposures adept Shep had all he/she can handle already at the time of ME1 so they did not have to bring anything down. But neither they could add more - DNA limit is still in place.
And no it was never mentioned that Shepard is any kind of biotical prodigy as Gilian or Jeck are, he/she is very strong, but not pushing any scientific limits. Why?
Since biotics in humans are not natural the over development of the trail obviously leads to side effects - Gilian is autistic, Jack is psychotic, it is a savant syndrome of a kind - they get very good at biotics at the expense of other brain functions. Since Shep is relatively sane and has all his wits about him/her I asume that it's not the case with the commander.
It is not Shepard's biotics that make him/her unique and needed by Cerberus. Cerberus has biotics, plenty of them and they would make more if they want to - first 3 accidents and Jack are their handwork after all. They need Shepard for the leadership qualities and personality, and thay would not risk loosing thous for random biotic experiment that may not work out - it's not like they can make another Shepard if they fail.
They gave Shep the best non experimental treatment - nice safe and checked. Which has advantages over the old version, but nothing to staggering. Shep is probably able to bit his/her own score now, but not by much.

So what Jack and Gillian have superb DNA or something? (And even if it's limited on DNA stucture. How high do we really know Shep's DNA can reach? Gillian and Jack both have amps that kick up their abilities so high. Without those amps they're power isn't anywhere near as destructive). They also were relegated to Cerberus' "treatement" something Shepard never had to endure. 

Actually...it kind if insuinated with the whole "you're an L2 (normal rank) who can go as high as an L3 (which is the current highest rank at the moment) without no side effects". That's not exactly normal. If it was there'd be no purpose for L3s. Not to mention looking at Shep's past and...yeah. Nothing about Shep is average or normal. 

No Shep is a Sue. It's the same reason his power peaks so high with the L2s with zero side effects. If anything he'd probably be as crazy asJack if Cerberus got their hands on him as a child. (Please do not neglect the fact that most (if not all) of Jack's issues come from being constantly tortured and abused.) Jack is also not psychotic if you bother getting to know her. She's very very very pissed and trying to draw herself into some shield. When someone sees as much as the darkside of humanity as she has one tends to act like that. Biotics have nothing to do with that personality type. Not sure about Gillian because I haven't read the books. 

They need Shepard sane that's all. Why would they not want Shepard as powerful as he/she could be? He/she is supposed to be a shining example of humanities wits, independence and strength. They'd want him to have the whole package. You think they'd let their shiny new information about the peaks of human biotics be wasted on an renegade biotic and Gillian? No. They wanted that info to make stronger human biotics in general. Not just a few exceptions. Shep's abilities mostly being about control plays into the whole human dominance outlook too now that I think about it. 

You do realize they were working on Shep's corpse for 2 years right? That is enough time to have a couple of tests to see what's the limit they can push Shepard too and have him sane/not liable to drop dead in a few seconds. 

Why on earth would you think nothing in Shepard was experimental?  Shepard himself is one big experiment on how to bring someone back to life! HIs brain, his memories, his personality all that could've been screwed up beyond repair yet somehow all that is perfectly fixed. Giving him a little boost in biotics is nothing compared to fully giving him back every single memory and his personality back exactly the way it was before death. 

But frankly that chart pretty much guarantees that Shep's biotics have more kick. L3's are weaker than L4's and L4's are more than likely weaker than L5's. So yeah...Shep's biotics have increased in power as I thought. Just by how much is the question. Probably more than 10%. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 juillet 2011 - 10:26 .

[Sshodan]

@ Ryzaki
No Jack and Gilian pay for their extra high levels with being crazy, is it not clear? As I sad - a kind of savant syndrome (autistic children that can do computer level calculations in their heads, if you are unfamiliar with the term googl it) Shep is not crazy - no price payed - no super high level.
About L2 and L3 - L2 biotics are MORE powerful than L3. But L2 has potentially fatal sideeffects, so they had to be replaced with a safer L3 version. Clear?
It was clarified in one of the pose above that Shep is actually an L3 whit a very good power output, so he can actually compete with L2. So he is equal to Kaiden, or slightly below him in power game wise.
The bring back to life part of Sheps resurrection was experimental enough. You do not run more than one experiment on one subject, every first year science student knows it - it'll be to hard to find and fix the problems. The purpose of project Lazarus was to bring Shep back, not make super solders. And no, for once they did not multi task, it is stated clearly enough by both Miranda and what documentation you can find. If they intended to cut all corners with Shep he would have been simply indoctranated as by the start of ME3 as the rest of the Cerberus. So they obviously did not alter him to much.
As for Jack - she is mentally unstable, not outright crazy but she does not process emotions like an adult should. Sure part of it is trauma, but I strongly suspect that a good deal of problems is caused by dis balance in brain chemistry as well.

Modifié par Sshodan, 12 juillet 2011 - 10:29 .

[Ryzaki]

Sshodan wrote...

@ Ryzaki
No Jack and Gilian pay for their extra high levels with being crazy, is it not clear? As I sad - a kind of savant syndrome (autistic children that can do computer level calculations in their heads, if you are unfamiliar with the term googl it) Shep is not crazy - no price payed - no super high level.
About L2 and L3 - L2 biotics are MORE powerful than L3. But L2 has potentially fatal sideeffects, so they had to be replaced with a safer L3 version. Clear?
It was clarified in one of the pose above that Shep is actually an L3 whit a very good power output, so he can actually compete with L2. So he is equal to Kaiden, or slightly below him in power game wise.
The bring back to life part of Sheps resurrection was experimental enough. You do not run more than one experiment on one subject, every first year science student knows it - it'll be to hard to find and fix the problems. The purpose of project Lazarus was to bring Shep back, not make super solders. And no, for once they did not multi task, it is stated clearly enough by both Miranda and what documentation you can find. If they intended to cut all corners with Shep he would have been simply indoctranated as by the start of ME3 as the rest of the Cerberus. So they obviously did not alter him to much.
As for Jack - she is mentally unstable, not outright crazy but she does not process emotions like an adult should. Sure part of it is trauma, but I strongly suspect that a good deal is inability to do so caused by dis balance in brain chemistry as well.

And did you completely miss the part where most of Jack's crazy came from abuse?  Not to mention she's not psychotic. She's very very pissed. 

Psychosis: http://www.ncbi.nlm....lth/PMH0002520/

Please learn the word. Jack doesn't have those symptons. She's rational, understands what's going on and isn't suffering from delusions.  Shepard is perfectly capable of talking Jack down and she'll realize his logic. 

You don't seem to realize you're talking about Cerberus. The people who push the limit all the time. Not running more than one experiment at a time? You serious? You really think they only tried to increase Jack's biotics using one experiment? They were running countless experiments with those children even once the poor things were dead. They molded her into what she was. 

Actually nothing is clearly stated by Miranda other than her trying to bring you back to life. The documentation is all about bringing Shep to life true but Shep also doesn't find all the documentation. (Not to mention it would have to change for each class and the devs probably could be bothered for such a small detail). 

Jack doesn't process emotions like an adult should? Uh...what?  What emotions pray tell does she not process like an adult? (especially considering she isn't that old anyway. I highly doubt she's older than mid twenties). 

And yes L2's are stronger than L3's. But L3's are considered moderates. Exactly what percentage are L2's stronger than L3's? 20% more? Because if so those L4s come awfully close. And I highly doubt Cerberus would leave Shepard *weaker* than he/she started with (since those L2's had the kick of L3s). So Shep's either stronger (which is reasonable) or exactly the same in biotic ability (which...seems unlikely considering those upgrades Shep can get. What's the point in upgrading if you end up at exactly the same power level you were originally? And would mean Shepard started off weaker than he/she originally was. Don't think Cerberus would do that.) Shepard is no longer using L2 implants either.

Again I'm not arguing that Shep's super strong. But him being stronger than he was is pretty much a definite. 

When the data given for powerful biotics being mentally unstable is an autistic girl and someone who was tortured and abused for as long as they can remember...that's not exactly ironclad proof. Especially not when said 2 are the beta projects.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 juillet 2011 - 10:51 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Shepard in ME1 was a L3 and Kaidans remarks that Shepard is a stronger biotic than him. After the Lazarus project Shepard is rebuild and is given the L5 implant. Which I guess is a cerberus prototype (Jack also uses it if upgraded). So after ME2 I would say Shepard is far stronger than your average Asari.

[Sshodan]

As for Jack, I'm sure you don't want to hear a lecture on abuse and psychology form me. I can give you one, but let's not get boring, just say that Jack level of pissed, as in murder people because she is so pissed is usually kept in mental facilities, for obvious reasons. She killed plenty of other children to escape, mentioned killing everyone who seamed threatening to her in all years past. the children in facility never attacked her, so guess how many "threatening" individuals just looked strangely at half naked tattooed woman? Anyway, this is not a tread about Jack.
Since I need to go get some sleep anyway I'll make the answer simple for you:
1. It never once mentioned anywhere that Shepard is a biotic prodigy of epic proportions. It is sad that he has high levels, but nothing to get anyone awed. Our doctor seams to be more in awe of Kaiden in the first part. No special biotic powers mentioned anywhere in ME2 or books.
2. Shep has the same talents and battle effectives game wise as another biotic squad mates, minus special powers. So nothing to get awed about again.
3. Shep never does anything biotically impressive in any cut scenes - Samara can fly, Jack kills 2 meches in one hit and breaks very hard looking restrains. So Shep is on the bottom of the pile here.
Bottom line - Shep is not a biotic prodigy and has no supper upgrades. At last that's what facts tell us.
If you want to role play your Shep as one you'll have to use your imagination.

[Han Shot First]

Lizardviking wrote...

Shepard in ME1 was a L3 and Kaidans remarks that Shepard is a stronger biotic than him. After the Lazarus project Shepard is rebuild and is given the L5 implant. Which I guess is a cerberus prototype (Jack also uses it if upgraded). So after ME2 I would say Shepard is far stronger than your average Asari.

Far stronger than the average Asari, yes.

But not far stronger than their top tier biotics. As a general rule the Asari have more natural biotic ability than humans. Jack and Gillian are probably the only humans (as far the story goes) that are on the same level as the top Asari biotics.

Shepard of course dominates everyone, but only because the player is controlling him  or her.

[Ryzaki]

Sshodan wrote...

As for Jack, I'm sure you don't want to hear a lecture on abuse and psychology form me. I can give you one, but let's not get boring, just say that Jack level of pissed, as in murder people because she is so pissed is usually kept in mental facilities, for obvious reasons. She killed plenty of other children to escape, mentioned killing everyone who seamed threatening to her in all years past. the children in facility never attacked her, so guess how many "threatening" individuals just looked strangely at half naked tattooed woman? Anyway, this is not a tread about Jack.
Since I need to go get some sleep anyway I'll make the answer simple for you:
1. It never once mentioned anywhere that Shepard is a biotic prodigy of epic proportions. It is sad that he has high levels, but nothing to get anyone awed. Our doctor seams to be more in awe of Kaiden in the first part. No special biotic powers mentioned anywhere in ME2 or books.
2. Shep has the same talents and battle effectives game wise as another biotic squad mates, minus special powers. So nothing to get awed about again.
3. Shep never does anything biotically impressive in any cut scenes - Samara can fly, Jack kills 2 meches in one hit and breaks very hard looking restrains. So Shep is on the bottom of the pile here.
Bottom line - Shep is not a biotic prodigy and has no supper upgrades. At last that's what facts tell us.
If you want to role play your Shep as one you'll have to use your imagination.

Actually the children did attack her.You'd know that if you did her loyalty mission. "The guards attacked me, the other children attacked me, the mechs (or automated weapons no sure which) attacked me. That doesn't leave alot of room for interpretation." (her words not mine). She was trained from childhood to kill or be hurt. It's no surprise that she killed anyone who looked like they were trying to stop her from getting free. They trained her to do that. If she didn't kill she was tortured. When she did kill she was given a high. They got exactly what they taught her to do. (She's probably so used to the narcotics that she got a natural high from killing them). Thus reinforcing her killing = reward attitude. She is stable enough to have concerned a colony of outcasts family and avenged them when they were killed. (indicating some level of care for others), she also took over a ship and didn't immediately kill thecivilians onbard (though she later says it would've been easier if she had). Not to mention the story about that guy. (survivor guilt) she isn't some cold hard unthinking bloodthirsty beast. If someone looked threatening to Jack there's a 99% chance they *were* threatening her. She didn't exactly live in our cushy society. The first thing that happens to her when she meets people outside Cerberus is she's raped and I believe sold into slavery. That's not exactly conductive to a healthy attitude towards strangers.

Jack also doesn't bother trying to attack Shepard nor does she threaten him until one of his crew threatens her. (and she realizes said crew is Cerberus who did that to her and even then she only attacks Miranda. She doesn't bother any of the crew. She just sits down in her hole minding her business for the most part.) Now she *did* flip out on Miranda (ra only knows why) but she doesn't attack Shepard even if he rushes to Miranda's defense (she just calls them ****s before storming off. Much like a angry teenager.) she even agrees to stay on the squad instead of running off.

Hell if life didn't keep kicking her in the teeth she might end up
fairly stable. Not normal (but few people are. Normal is some ridculous
ideal) but stable and happy.

Ugh. Did I just do a defense of Jack? Bleh.

Though go ahead and give me your analysis. I'm not any authority on the subject.

1. That's probably because Kaidan is sane and Shepard has far more interesting things about him than his implants. (Like service history.) Something that *everyone* would know and talk about rather than just his biotics. (I doubt it's even common knowledge that his abilities spike so high). Not to mention resources. The devs weren't gonna have a whole bunch of dialogues based off Shep's class. Especially considering there's 5 of them. The SH and Origin however can get a sidequest because there's only 3 choices each. Shepard's always guaranteed to have an origin. He/she's not always gonna be a biotic.

2. Game. Play. Do you not understand these words? If we're gonna use gameplay as a judge once again Shepard is a better biotic than both Jack and Samara. He has far more verstility than both of them and can steal their signature powers for himself. (probably just by watching them in combat using it or by them teaching him). [which probably suggests there's not a great power disrepancy between them since they can pick up their unique skill with relative ease]. (He can also learn these abilities in a later game without needing them to even be in his squad or even have met them! Not to mention I can teach my Soldier Shepard stasis! ) 

3. You don't seem to understand the meaning of resource management. Unless of course adept Shepard can use an AR without training?   No Shepard has unique cutscenes. They all have to meet the same generic standards even if it doesn't make much sense. (Like Shepard jumping instead of using his biotics to fly). (And Shepard holding a SMG like a pistol een if it has two grips. ) 

Actually Shepard is said to be a prodigy period. The best humanity has to offer supposedly. That really doesn't require any imagination to think they might be talking about all his powers. (one of the best engineers, the hardest soldider, one of the best infiltrators, one of the most powerful biotics that wasn't mindraped by Cerberus, one of the best vanguards). Then of course is him being N7. I have little doubt they pushed Shepard (and his abilities) to the very limit they could go.

Frankly my power ranking was: 
Samara
Morinth/Aria
Benezia
Jack
Liara
Tela Vasir
Shepard
Wrex *snickers* Totally unintentional.
Miranda
Kaidan
The average Asari commando (like say Weslea or that chick on Miranda's loyalty mission)
Thane
Jacob

That said raw power means little without discipline and control.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juillet 2011 - 12:39 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Han Shot First wrote...
Far stronger than the average Asari, yes.

But not far stronger than their top tier biotics. As a general rule the Asari have more natural biotic ability than humans. Jack and Gillian are probably the only humans (as far the story goes) that are on the same level as the top Asari biotics.

Shepard of course dominates everyone, but only because the player is controlling him  or her.

Never claimed that Shepard is stronger than say Morinth or Samara.

This is just my own guess but I would say that.

Morinth/Samara/Jack>Shepard>Thane/Jacob/Kaidan/Miranda.

Not 100% sure where to pin Liara and Wrex. But proberely in the same camp as Shepard (being either slightly stronger or slightly weaker).

[Trakarg]

Sshodan wrote...

As for Jack, I'm sure you don't want to hear a lecture on abuse and psychology form me. I can give you one, but let's not get boring, just say that Jack level of pissed, as in murder people because she is so pissed is usually kept in mental facilities, for obvious reasons. She killed plenty of other children to escape, mentioned killing everyone who seamed threatening to her in all years past. the children in facility never attacked her, so guess how many "threatening" individuals just looked strangely at half naked tattooed woman? Anyway, this is not a tread about Jack.
Since I need to go get some sleep anyway I'll make the answer simple for you:
1. It never once mentioned anywhere that Shepard is a biotic prodigy of epic proportions. It is sad that he has high levels, but nothing to get anyone awed. Our doctor seams to be more in awe of Kaiden in the first part. No special biotic powers mentioned anywhere in ME2 or books.
2. Shep has the same talents and battle effectives game wise as another biotic squad mates, minus special powers. So nothing to get awed about again.
3. Shep never does anything biotically impressive in any cut scenes - Samara can fly, Jack kills 2 meches in one hit and breaks very hard looking restrains. So Shep is on the bottom of the pile here.
Bottom line - Shep is not a biotic prodigy and has no supper upgrades. At last that's what facts tell us.
If you want to role play your Shep as one you'll have to use your imagination.

Not really.  Shep is easily the strongest in-combat biotic you can have in your party (for obvious reasons).  Makes it pretty easy to imagine him as a biotic prodigy

[ZeroCrewX]

100k wrote...

Here's how I think the strength levels are:

11. Wrex
10. Jacob
9. Thane
8. Saren
7. Miranda
6. Kaiden
5. Shepard
4. Liara
3. Samara - Vasir - Aria
2. Benezia
1. Jack

I agree, Liara is stronger than Vasir I believe, Vasir is a Vanguard, not an adept so naturally she isnt nearly as strong as an adept would be. 

[100k]

ZeroCrewX wrote...

*snip*

I agree, Liara is stronger than Vasir I believe, Vasir is a Vanguard, not an adept so naturally she isnt nearly as strong as an adept would be. 

That's actually a good point. Vasir is more dangerous with weapons + biotics. Liara is more powerful with biotics + small arms. I'll edit the list.

[Ryzaki]

Out of curiosity.

How is Jack stronger than Samara?

I mean...Jack's powerful for a human biotic sure. But most human biotics tend to reach the levels of commandos. Not the Matriarchs or Justicars. Not to mention with training...Samara has a hell of a lot more of life experience and fighting on her own than Jack ever will.

Jack does destroy 4 YMIR mechs by herself, but Samara supposedly faces a whole mindenslaved village on her own, stops a speeding car from running away in its tracks and drags it back towards her without even batting an eye. She faces Nihlus one on one (and Spectres are no slouches), and has centuries of taking out merc gangs and the like.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juillet 2011 - 12:42 .