108 réponses à ce sujet

[CrimsonZephyr]

Does this country have any redeeming qualities? Blood mages enslave elves, work blood magic in the streets, do massive blood sacrifices for no discernible reasons, act like total ****s all the time, and are generally stereotypically evil people. Seriously, is there anyone in Tevinter who is not either an irredeemably evil magister or a downtrodden slave or does this entire country run on evil in contrast to the grayness of basically every other country in Thedas?

[The Baconer]

The capable survive, and thrive. And those that don't still serve a purpose. I don't find anything wrong with that.

[OmegaXI]

I hear they have the best wine in all of thedas I mean you can actually taste the elvish oppression in each sip, its "bloody magical" stuff

[The Baconer]

OmegaXI wrote...

I hear they have the best wine in all of thedas I mean you can actually taste the elvish oppression in each sip, its "bloody magical" stuff

Actually, as long as you're a mage (or a dwarf) Tevinter is one of the most racially progressive nations in Thedas. I would say it is the most progressive but I don't know how things are over in Rivain or the Anderfels.

[Sons of Horus]

I wish we do go there some time. At least to see what its like.

[DRTJR]

Considering that if Your a citizen it matters not if your a Human or Elf so a Point for being progresive and one removed for Elven slaves

[TJPags]

Ehhh, elves are second class citizens at best, blood magic is not inherently evil, and hey, mages got rights, you know.

Tevinter ain't so bad.

[Harid]

But they don't have rights, at least, not all of them.

[Pendragon993]

Tevinter is the most awsame countery in Thadas.Its a countey were it matters not what your parrents are,but what you are(a mage).where the great are not constrain by the small

Modifié par Pendragon993, 13 juillet 2011 - 03:51 .

[The Baconer]

Harid wrote...

But they don't have rights, at least, not all of them.

The ones that matter do. Where else can an Elf have human servants?

[Harid]

The Baconer wrote...

Harid wrote...

But they don't have rights, at least, not all of them.

The ones that matter do. Where else can an Elf have human servants?

Seheron?

You could apply that logic outside of Tevinter, in terms of controlling circle mages.

Elves have more rights in Rivain than they do in Tevinter.

Think I am going to back away from this topic though, as some of these opinions are abhorrant.

Modifié par Harid, 13 juillet 2011 - 03:57 .

[TJPags]

Harid wrote...

But they don't have rights, at least, not all of them.

Oh no, they all do.

Some just have those rights suppressed.

In Tevinter, though, a mage can do whatever he wants, so long as he has the power.  No oppression.

Wonderful place.

[The Baconer]

Harid wrote...
Seheron?

Indeed? Sounds like an interesting palce.

You could apply that logic outside of Tevinter, in terms of controlling circle mages.

Not really, that's straying from a racial issue into a 'mundane vs. mage' issue.

Elves have more rights in Rivain than they do in Tevinter.

I always figured Rivain to be a progressive nation. I guess Tevinter will have to be second place.

Modifié par The Baconer, 13 juillet 2011 - 04:05 .

[devSin]

Honestly, I have no desire to ever go to the Imperium. To do it justice, it's just going to have to be an ugly, wretched place, and nothing you do there is going to have any lasting beneficial effect (the filth will just overwhelm whatever accomplishments you may have made as soon as the end credits roll).

The Baconer wrote...

I always figured Rivain to be a progressive nation. I guess Tevinter will have to be second place.

Doesn't Rivain mostly follow the Qun now? So they're not a true human nation, at least in terms of the belief system of every other human outpost.

I also hope the qunari islands remain off-limits. They're going to fail in the end, so better that they just be the menacing giants of the north, about whom very little is truly known or understood.

[The Baconer]

Doesn't Rivain mostly follow the Qun now? So they're not a true human nation, at least in terms of the belief system of every other human outpost.

*shrug* I figure if we're talking about which nations in Thedas are the most progressive racially, it wouldn't be fair to only consider human lands.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Rivain has most of its followers of the Qun in the north at Kont-Ar. It's a place where elves, Andrastians, and Qunari live in apparent peace.

[Harid]

devSin wrote...

Honestly, I have no desire to ever go to the Imperium. To do it justice, it's just going to have to be an ugly, wretched place, and nothing you do there is going to have any lasting beneficial effect (the filth will just overwhelm whatever accomplishments you may have made as soon as the end credits roll).

The Baconer wrote...

I always figured Rivain to be a progressive nation. I guess Tevinter will have to be second place.

Doesn't Rivain mostly follow the Qun now? So they're not a true human nation, at least in terms of the belief system of every other human outpost.

I also hope the qunari islands remain off-limits. They're going to fail in the end, so better that they just be the menacing giants of the north, about whom very little is truly known or understood.

Doubt they mostly follow the Qun given their freedom they give their hedge witches.

Under the Qun those mages would be shackled and controlled.

But we don't really know how this works given the fact that we have yet to be in the country.

I personally assumed Kontaar where where the Qun followers dwelled, but the rest of the country believed in spirits.  A place like Llomeryn having the reputation as a den of sin would not really be in place under the philosophy of the Qun, I always assumed that while the people were influenced by the Qun due to proximity, they can't logically believe in the Qun or the country would make little sense.

It would still technically be a human nation whether it followed the Qun or not, though, I don't understand that train of thought at all.

Too bad we'll probably never see this country due to a stupid Mage/Templar War.

Modifié par Harid, 13 juillet 2011 - 04:41 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

I'm still kind of confused why Tevinter is an entire nation of strawmen meant to make mages seem evil, as if mages ruling meant all form of personal morality went down the toilet. Seriously though, there has not be a single thing about Tevinter that has been positively portrayed. Ever. Are we supposed to just accept that any country run by mages will immediately become chaotic evil to the nth power?

[Harid]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I'm still kind of confused why Tevinter is an entire nation of strawmen meant to make mages seem evil, as if mages ruling meant all form of personal morality went down the toilet. Seriously though, there has not be a single thing about Tevinter that has been positively portrayed. Ever. Are we supposed to just accept that any country run by mages will immediately become chaotic evil to the nth power?

The nation was pretty much formed to take advantage of Blood magic, and subjugate the weak.

I don't understand the confusion.

I'm pretty sure the nation may have 'positive' sides, but we aren't likely to see them from outward glace.

When your entire nation is formed on the principle of the powerful rule, the weak are slaves, why are you expecting nice people to rise out of that muck.  I am certain they exist but they would be a small minority.

Modifié par Harid, 13 juillet 2011 - 04:55 .

[devSin]

Harid wrote...

It would still technically be a human nation whether it followed the Qun or not, though, I don't understand that train of thought at all.

The Qun has a radically different world-view, I think. They're not "human" (or "elf" or "dwarf"). It's probably a pretty meaningless distinction in terms of how they look at things.

So you can't say an elf is better off if there's no distinction between an elf or any other race. Any *person* of the Qun could be better off (but if you're not better off, you never will be), but it has nothing to do with race.

Contrast with every other nation, where race predisposes some likely place in society (and on the surface, most those nations are human).

[Harid]

devSin wrote...

Harid wrote...

It would still technically be a human nation whether it followed the Qun or not, though, I don't understand that train of thought at all.

The Qun has a radically different world-view, I think. They're not "human" (or "elf" or "dwarf"). It's probably a pretty meaningless distinction in terms of how they look at things.

So you can't say an elf is better off if there's no distinction between an elf or any other race. Any *person* of the Qun could be better off (but if you're not better off, you never will be), but it has nothing to do with race.

Contrast with every other nation, where race predisposes some likely place in society (and on the surface, most those nations are human).

Different world views doesn't constitute humanity.  The Tevinter Imperium has an abhorrant world view, compared to the rest of the nations of Thedas, but it's still considered a human nation.  I have trouble understanding how having a different philosophy (despite the tenants of that philosophy) makes you non human all of a sudden.  Especially given that some human/or elf or whatever must rule the country, other wise Llomerryn makes little sense.

You are basing your argument on the Qun, when it's impossible given facts we know about the country (Isabella, the Armada, Hedge Witches, Llomerryn, a free Elf settlement) for the entire country to be under the dominion of the Qun.

Oh boy.  I'm side tracking this thread.  It's about the Tevinters.  I should probably back away.

Modifié par Harid, 13 juillet 2011 - 05:02 .

[devSin]

Harid wrote...

Different world views doesn't constitute humanity.  The Tevinter Imperium has an abhorrant world view, compared to the rest of the nations of Thedas, but it's still considered a human nation.  I have trouble understanding how having a different philosophy (despite the tenants of that philosophy) makes you non human all of a sudden.  Especially given that some human/or elf or whatever must rule the country, other wise Llomerryn makes little sense.

I think you're reading too much into it (or I didn't give enough context).

Yes, they're human. But for the purpose of the statement (about elves being better off), I don't think they can be held equivalent to the other human nations (largely Chantry) in terms of an elf's place in society. An elf of the Qun "having servants" (if such a thing even happens, if it would even be seen that way) doesn't seem to me to have the same distinction of a place where elves are subjugated.

In that context, a "true" human nation is simply majority rules. It has nothing to do with humanity, but simply the way the majority of mankind (and elf- and dwarf-kind) look at the world. And I don't think the parts of Rivain that follow the Qun qualify *for purposes of discussing places where an "elf" would be better off* (for them, it would be where a follower of the Qun would be better off, because that's the distinction that most matters).

[CrimsonZephyr]

Harid wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I'm still kind of confused why Tevinter is an entire nation of strawmen meant to make mages seem evil, as if mages ruling meant all form of personal morality went down the toilet. Seriously though, there has not be a single thing about Tevinter that has been positively portrayed. Ever. Are we supposed to just accept that any country run by mages will immediately become chaotic evil to the nth power?

The nation was pretty much formed to take advantage of Blood magic, and subjugate the weak.

I don't understand the confusion.

I'm pretty sure the nation may have 'positive' sides, but we aren't likely to see them from outward glace.

When your entire nation is formed on the principle of the powerful rule, the weak are slaves, why are you expecting nice people to rise out of that muck.  I am certain they exist but they would be a small minority.

I'm not expecting angels. You misunderstand my point. Every Tevinter we meet is a card-carrying villain. He kicks puppies, does blood rituals, kicks puppies, beats slaves mercilessly, kicks puppies, kills people with little provocation, and then kicks puppies. He has a smug, slimy British accent, hides in creepy warehouses, and has absolutely no conscience. This is every named Tevinter we meet, bar none. How the hell is this country still standing when every single person has the one-dimensionally evil personality of a Sith Lord? If we're striving for believability, there should be some Tevinters who are at least pragmatic about their villainy.

[Harid]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Harid wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I'm still kind of confused why Tevinter is an entire nation of strawmen meant to make mages seem evil, as if mages ruling meant all form of personal morality went down the toilet. Seriously though, there has not be a single thing about Tevinter that has been positively portrayed. Ever. Are we supposed to just accept that any country run by mages will immediately become chaotic evil to the nth power?

The nation was pretty much formed to take advantage of Blood magic, and subjugate the weak.

I don't understand the confusion.

I'm pretty sure the nation may have 'positive' sides, but we aren't likely to see them from outward glace.

When your entire nation is formed on the principle of the powerful rule, the weak are slaves, why are you expecting nice people to rise out of that muck.  I am certain they exist but they would be a small minority.

I'm not expecting angels. You misunderstand my point. Every Tevinter we meet is a card-carrying villain. He kicks puppies, does blood rituals, kicks puppies, beats slaves mercilessly, kicks puppies, kills people with little provocation, and then kicks puppies. He has a smug, slimy British accent, hides in creepy warehouses, and has absolutely no conscience. This is every named Tevinter we meet, bar none. How the hell is this country still standing when every single person has the one-dimensionally evil personality of a Sith Lord? If we're striving for believability, there should be some Tevinters who are at least pragmatic about their villainy.

This is Bioware, not (insert more talented dev here).  They aren't going to make a deep villain you kill in a simple subquest.  We haven't had to deal with any Tevinter in anything more than a subquest at this time, and as such, as they are simply mooks for you to kill, they are going to pretty much be moustache twirling villians.  I mean, you can't play more than a moustache twirling villain when you play a bad guy, for christs sakes.  Where did this. . .respect of Bioware writing of good and evil come from. . .I still wonder.

To the devSin, you are arguing about Riviani that follow the Qun, I am talking about all of the other Rivaini, we are talking about two different points right now, I dunno.  I don't know how the Qun leadership works in Rivain, I don't know if they report to the Trimuverate, heck, they probably do, but if you don't want to consider people under the qun to be human, you still have to contend with everyone else in the nation.  And in the nation, they do not sujugate elves, and logic dictates that a talented, and rich enough elf could own human servants.

The Seheron quip was a joke, because those people would be slaves.

Modifié par Harid, 13 juillet 2011 - 05:34 .