108 réponses à ce sujet

[CrimsonZephyr]

All right, point taken about BioWare not caring enough to develop them better, but I can still hope we get three-dimensional Tevinter characters, right?

[Rifneno]

I always wondered if Tevinter was actually radically different than we're told. I mean almost everything we hear about it can be traced back to the Chantry. Who as we all know is totally honest *cough*. People spread ridiculous lies about their political enemies all the time. For ample, most of you know Catherine the Great as the Russian ruler who died... umm... sharing an intimate moment with a horse. Yeah, she actually died of a stroke in bed. Now if people can get away with a lie that asinine about their political enemies, I wouldn't have any problem believing the Chantry could get away with claiming Tevinter was up to all kinds of nefarious deeds simply because they had a difference of opinion with the "white" Chantry.

Unfortunately, Fenris kind of threw a wrench in that idea. Still, I suppose it could be at least partially true somehow or other.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Fenris isn't particularly unbiased. Didn't his memory get wiped at least once in his life? Plus, most of what he says is laced with anti-mage rhetoric. Not a reliable source.

I dunno, it just seems really weird that BioWare would be so hamfisted in characterizing this one country.

[TEWR]

I imagine Tevinter isn't all bad, but it certainly isn't paradise. The Magisters are more than likely a bunch of pricks, but there has to be some redeeming qualities about its society.


Like how strong the Veil must be if they sacrifice slaves left and right. They have to have discovered some way to keep the Veil strong. There's no way they could contain the massive flux of demons that would pour out. From what we've seen, I'm led to believe the Tevinters are only able to control the lesser demons like Rage and Hunger.

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I imagine Tevinter isn't all bad, but it certainly isn't paradise. The Magisters are more than likely a bunch of pricks, but there has to be some redeeming qualities about its society.


Like how strong the Veil must be if they sacrifice slaves left and right. They have to have discovered some way to keep the Veil strong. There's no way they could contain the massive flux of demons that would pour out. From what we've seen, I'm led to believe the Tevinters are only able to control the lesser demons like Rage and Hunger.

I was always under the impression that Tevinters allied with and worked with demons regularly (well, in secret.)

I wouldn't be surprised in high level magisters and heck, possibly the black divine themselves were all demon thralls.  I have trouble believing that those would a thirst for not only power, but the most  power, would not turn to demons; we've seen so many weaker mages that already have.  I always assumed the Qunari kept them "occupied".

And while you may call Fenris 'biased', the fact that every mage we've met from the Tevinter Imperium are, well,. straight up chaotic/neutral evil, I have trouble believing they are outliers.  I have no real reason not to believe, at least some what, most of what Fenris stated.  The only way for us not to believe that these people and Fenris are outliers is by actually going there ourselves.

But unfortunately, we have Orzamaar Mk. II with Eyes Wide Shut  masks to look forward to in the future, despite the fact that, at least in my opinion, every other region in Thedas is infinitely more intriguing.

Modifié par Harid, 13 juillet 2011 - 06:17 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Feynriel pretty much corroborates most of what Fenris said about Tevinter. Plus the devs have sometimes talked about Tevinter in the same way the Codex does, so I don't think the Tevinter Imperium would be portrayed any differently in any especially significant way than what we've been told about it if we went there.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 juillet 2011 - 06:44 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

So essentially an entire country that runs off pure Chaotic Evil in a game where every other nation has the benefit of being gray at best, including the Qunari?

[Rifneno]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

So essentially an entire country that runs off pure Chaotic Evil in a game where every other nation has the benefit of being gray at best, including the Qunari?

Haha.  An excellent summary.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well presumably not every individual Tevinter citizen in existence evil. Actually I think what's especially fascinating is just how the rest of Thedas views the Imperium throughout history. The Imperium itself is generally viewed with distrust by most Andrastian nations but even though they haven't really changed all taht dramatically they are still the "good guys" in many tales of history.

During the First Blight the Imperium is the hero. Immediately afterwards they are the villain in the stories of Andraste's Exalted March and again they are a villain when the Divine launched Exalted Marches on them later, but once the Qunari Wars started they were considered the good guys again.

[Harid]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

So essentially an entire country that runs off pure Chaotic Evil in a game where every other nation has the benefit of being gray at best, including the Qunari?

Not particularly.  They keep the Qunari from overrunning Thedas through distraction and are probably the formost country for magical arts in Thedas.  Probably second formost in science after the Qunari.

And I would argue every country isn't grey.  I don't recall any grey in post Blight Fereldan, and Antiva is run by a cabal of bloody assassins.

And to the above poster I would not think them to be considered good guys for fighting the Qunari.  That would be like a Black versus Black conflict for most Thedasians.  I mean they kidnap people from other countries to fuel their slaving ring.  No one seems to like this.

Modifié par Harid, 13 juillet 2011 - 06:58 .

[Icy Magebane]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

So essentially an entire country that runs off pure Chaotic Evil in a game where every other nation has the benefit of being gray at best, including the Qunari?

Maybe consider them as "Lawful Evil?"  Honestly, I think Tevinter is just as grey as anywhere else, even the way they are presented in DA:O and DA2.  If you want to think it terms of grey morality, you have to look at the entire world in that way.  In Tevinter, sacrificing slaves isn't "evil," it's a means to gain power... I mean yes, that is "evil" by definition, but isn't "grey morality" all about ignoring such terms?  Seeing the world in a way that doesn't take into account the suffering of others and simply looks at costs and benefits?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Tevinter is land based on survival of the fittest.  Maybe it's the ultimate expression of grey morality...

[Augustei]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Does this country have any redeeming qualities? Blood mages enslave elves, work blood magic in the streets, do massive blood sacrifices for no discernible reasons, act like total ****s all the time, and are generally stereotypically evil people. Seriously, is there anyone in Tevinter who is not either an irredeemably evil magister or a downtrodden slave or does this entire country run on evil in contrast to the grayness of basically every other country in Thedas?

Architectual Marvels that are used to this day in many countries in thedas, maintaining the attention of the Qunari so they dont bother with the rest of thedas...for now

[Augustei]

The Baconer wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

I hear they have the best wine in all of thedas I mean you can actually taste the elvish oppression in each sip, its "bloody magical" stuff

Actually, as long as you're a mage (or a dwarf) Tevinter is one of the most racially progressive nations in Thedas. I would say it is the most progressive but I don't know how things are over in Rivain or the Anderfels.

Unless your a foreign mage.. They will treat you like dirt if you are, see you as a possible political issue and try and kill you... the magisters dont like competition

[Rifneno]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Fenris isn't particularly unbiased. Didn't his memory get wiped at least once in his life? Plus, most of what he says is laced with anti-mage rhetoric. Not a reliable source.

I dunno, it just seems really weird that BioWare would be so hamfisted in characterizing this one country.

The problem then is that if he's lying about how bad Tevinter is because of his anti-mage bias... why is he so strongly anti-mage? He's way beyond the distrust that the random guy who believes the Chantry's crap is at. He's at KKK levels of hate. He'd have to have a very different backstory to explain why he hates mages so much if Tevinter isn't what he says. It seems like they'd just be pissing off his fans for no good reason by making it that he was lying the whole time. Then again they did it with Anders, Justice, and Leliana so maybe...

It's true that Danarius can wipe his memory, so it's possible he also has the ability to alter it. But why would he alter it into crazy genocidal mage hate?

XxDeonxX wrote...

Architectual Marvels that are used to this day in many countries in thedas, maintaining the attention of the Qunari so they dont bother with the rest of thedas...for now

Yeah, Tevinter doesn't get enough credit for keeping the Qunari's paws busy. I guess because not many people see the qunari for what they are. Tevinter is the lesser of those two evils, amazingly enough.

[Herr Uhl]

Rifneno wrote...

It's true that Danarius can wipe his memory, so it's possible he also has the ability to alter it. But why would he alter it into crazy genocidal mage hate?

As far as I know the memory loss was due to the blunt trauma of infusing lyrium. Not him mind-wiping Fenris.

Mary Kirby wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

betrayal, loss, both?[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Shale got on an anvil and had molten lyrium poured directly onto her. Fenris had it pumped into his skin. It's physicaltrauma.

Link

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 13 juillet 2011 - 12:24 .

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

It's true that Danarius can wipe his memory, so it's possible he also has the ability to alter it. But why would he alter it into crazy genocidal mage hate?

As far as I know the memory loss was due to the blunt trauma of infusing lyrium. Not him mind-wiping Fenris.

For the lyrium, that's what Fenris believes to have caused his memory loss. That doesn't necessarily mean it was the actual cause.


edit: saw link, takes back statement.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juillet 2011 - 12:27 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Does this country have any redeeming qualities? Blood mages enslave elves, work blood magic in the streets, do massive blood sacrifices for no discernible reasons, act like total ****s all the time, and are generally stereotypically evil people. Seriously, is there anyone in Tevinter who is not either an irredeemably evil magister or a downtrodden slave or does this entire country run on evil in contrast to the grayness of basically every other country in Thedas?

Archons have risen to power who try to improve the way the country is run and get assassinated for their efforts.

That suggests people are making the attempt to change the status quo...they are simply failing.

So yes, there are redeeming qualities, and those seeking to redeem the Imperium.

[Wulfram]

Tevinter mostly seems to exist to justify the Templars. Though it doesn't really work because it comes off as random cartoonish evil, rather than a serious example of the corrupting effect of power.

[Foolsfolly]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Does this country have any redeeming qualities? Blood mages enslave elves, work blood magic in the streets, do massive blood sacrifices for no discernible reasons, act like total ****s all the time, and are generally stereotypically evil people. Seriously, is there anyone in Tevinter who is not either an irredeemably evil magister or a downtrodden slave or does this entire country run on evil in contrast to the grayness of basically every other country in Thedas?

Fenris and Hawke's possible house slave/servant seem like decent people. Albeit, Fenris does have a bit of distrust about mages which some may find annoying.

[TEWR]

and Orana felt sorry for Hadriana. Poor, naive Orana.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Icy Magebane wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

So essentially an entire country that runs off pure Chaotic Evil in a game where every other nation has the benefit of being gray at best, including the Qunari?

Maybe consider them as "Lawful Evil?"  Honestly, I think Tevinter is just as grey as anywhere else, even the way they are presented in DA:O and DA2.  If you want to think it terms of grey morality, you have to look at the entire world in that way.  In Tevinter, sacrificing slaves isn't "evil," it's a means to gain power... I mean yes, that is "evil" by definition, but isn't "grey morality" all about ignoring such terms?  Seeing the world in a way that doesn't take into account the suffering of others and simply looks at costs and benefits?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Tevinter is land based on survival of the fittest.  Maybe it's the ultimate expression of grey morality...

I know using DnD characterizations aren't the deepest levels of analysis, but I used Chaotic Evil to describe them because there is literally no overarching goal behind their cruelty. A lawful evil character would be all about maintaining order, with an iron fist. Tevinter sounds like a place where everyone just commits massive, random, acts of cruelty. "Gaining power" is kind of nebulous. From how the place is described, they just kill slaves in massive blood sacrifices that have no lasting benefit whatsoever, or just for fun. It just seems like a strawman to justify the Templars. No other country in Thedas has so many one-dimensionally evil characters. And yes, even in gray-gray morality, it's possible to have evil characters, as they are generally people portrayed entirely unsympathetically.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Their redeeming quality is that Thedas now is a child on the shoulders of a giant (the Ancient Tevinter Imperium).

Hopefully Bioware will grow out of its simplistic manichean mindset and explore Tevinter in more depth.

[Rifneno]

Herr Uhl wrote...

As far as I know the memory loss was due to the blunt trauma of infusing lyrium. Not him mind-wiping Fenris.

Mary Kirby wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

betrayal, loss, both?[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Shale got on an anvil and had molten lyrium poured directly onto her. Fenris had it pumped into his skin. It's physicaltrauma.

Link

If you give him back to Danarius, Danarius re-wipes his memory so he'll forget his time of freedom as he feels it'll make Fenris more productive (and I'm sure he's right, current Fenris would spend all his time pouting and no time fetching his slippers). So... I think there was a breakdown in communication on the Bioware team. Because the in-game information pretty much tells us flat out that Danarius messes with his memory by some spell or ritual.

[Corker]

I thought Devera in DAO was a decent stab at a simply pragmatic villain. She wasn't in it for the puppy-kicking and moustache-twirling, she was in it for the pension and health benefits.