108 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Filament wrote...

Indeed, the qunari really are the most civilized nation in Thedas.

Qunari society sounds like a bootstomping fascist nightmare to me, what with having every aspect of your life history set out and dictated by an ambiguous group of religious leaders. Oh, and say I want to be an intellectual, rather than a soldier grunt as was dictated, they turn you into a mindless drone and work you to death in a mining camp. Sounds like a fantastic place.

You realize that they try and give you the job you are best suited as, right? If you want to be a scientist (or their equivalent anyway), and show great aptitude throughout your youth for learning and comprehension, they will probably give you a role within some sort of research field.

If you want to be a scientist, but you prove to be dull of wit and actually kind of a brute, they stick you in the army (perhaps even a subgroup within the army where your desire for knowledge could be put to use), to spare you a life of grief, where you would eternally try to be a scientist, but would never become one.

What one wants, and what one can achieve is not often the same. Unless you want to listen to that bullcrap you hear as a child "Oh, you can be anything you want darling"...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 16 juillet 2011 - 11:59 .

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You realize that they try and give you the job you are best suited as, right? If you want to be a scientist (or their equivalent anyway), and show great aptitude throughout your youth for learning and comprehension, they will probably give you a role within some sort of research field.

If you want to be a scientist, but you prove to be dull of wit and actually kind of a brute, they stick you in the army (perhaps even a subgroup within the army where your desire for knowledge could be put to use), to spare you a life of grief, where you would eternally try to be a scientist, but would never become one.

What one wants, and what one can achieve is not often the same. Unless you want to listen to that bullcrap you hear as a child "Oh, you can be anything you want darling"...

While I agree that "you can do anything you want, kid who's still trying to stick a butterknife in the light socket at 12 years old" is idiocy (and one of many ways good intentioned parenting backfires, but that's another story), this is hardly the same. The qunari don't give young adults a list of jobs they're suited for and let them pick the one they prefer, they give them one specific job that they feel will that person would provide best for the community doing and to hell with what they want. To use your example, the problem is if they have someone who really wants to be a scientist and is quite capable of it, but the priestesses feel they have a little better talent for swordsmanship, they'll be put in the army even if they hate combat.

What people are good at isn't always what they like doing. I know lots of people who are excellent at their jobs, and hate their jobs. I've got a friend that's a great programmer, but it drives him crazy. We don't wonder if he'll become an alcohol, we wonder when. This is the problem. In the qunari society, people can't write off a career they're good at as too stressful (or whatever their issue with it is). It's "do it, or be labeled Tal-Vashoth and murderized." That's a litttle bit different than "you know Jimmy, maybe you shouldn't major in math, you still count with your fingers."

[EmperorSahlertz]

They wouldn't be put in the army if they hate combat. They'd never stick a pacifist in the army, as he wouldn't be a very effective soldier. They could use him as an instructor, which could also let him satisfy his inquisitive nature, by letting him invent new weapons perhaps, or other invent other forms of advancements within fighting styles.

Long story short, chances are that if you exhibit great talent for something, yet also a great dislike of it, then you won't get a profession within that field, sicne you wouldn't be productive.

Example: You have a green thumb, but greatly dislike farming. Then they wouldn't make you a farmer, dispite your talents, more likely they would find some proffession where you talents could be put to better use, lumberjack or whatever else profession where you'd need to interact with plants.

I think it is wrong to assume the Tamassrans don't care about what the Qunari want with their lives. The Tamassrans have an interrest in keeping the Qunari people as happy as possible. However, they will not make some low intellegence Qunari, a high intellegence required job, just because he wanted that profession. By the end of the day the Tamassrans are trying to optimize the Qunari society. Unhappy people are not optimal.

[Plaintiff]

Except they can brainwash you anytime they want. It doesn't matter if you hate farming, they'll MAKE you love it.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Plaintiff wrote...

Except they can brainwash you anytime they want. It doesn't matter if you hate farming, they'll MAKE you love it.

That may not be true. The operating terminology is "efficiency," or more precisely what someone else thinks efficiency ought to be. An old adage comes to mind: you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. At least there seems to be some sense at work somewhere.

However I think there are serious issues with the Qunari way of thinking. This is a gameworld - and the writers can put one over us and make us believe that this sort of system works. However, I really should hold on to my horses, as I've not seen the Qunari society at work - it could very well be that it doesn't.

The central issue I believe has to do with looking at the whole of society as having some sort of independent existence - a living entity; and one whose existence is paramount. This automatically has the effect of putting down the individual into subservience. This I believe is the core of the indoctrination at work. Once you make someone swallow that pill at a young age, he/she becomes more pliable.

I simply see the other issues as manifestations of this one. The Tamassrans (a body of people - nothing more or less) deciding by whatever means what sort of education must be given, deciding what roles individuals must play out in society (somehow figuring out based on what roles are open - let's not forget the whole process has to be somehow "efficient" to boot), and last but not the least deciding who mates with whom.

And all for what? Supposedly to keep the greater organism ticking - healthy and rearing. And perhaps just like the Chantry which wishes the Chant of Light to spread to all the figurative corners of the world, so too does the Qun demand that the indoctrination be all consuming.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Plaintiff wrote...

Except they can brainwash you anytime they want. It doesn't matter if you hate farming, they'll MAKE you love it.

When exactly was this establsihed?

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Except they can brainwash you anytime they want. It doesn't matter if you hate farming, they'll MAKE you love it.

When exactly was this establsihed?

I'm fairly certain it was somewhere in the codex, but there's also the whole "anyone with the most microscopic shred of common sense can figured it out on their own" thing. They all babble on about "certainty" constantly. And they mean it. To the point that we see a saarebas commit suicide because the code tells him to, the same code that's abused him his entire life. And the Arishok considers it an insult to suggest that it was a difficult decision for him. What does that sound like to you?

[EmperorSahlertz]

It sounds like a society different than ours. They got different values and morals than us, that does not make them anymore brainwashed than we are. Then again, it is common for a school of tought to call another school for brainwashed, because obviously only their own school can be right...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 16 juillet 2011 - 08:26 .

[PrinceLionheart]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Filament wrote...

Indeed, the qunari really are the most civilized nation in Thedas.

Qunari society sounds like a bootstomping fascist nightmare to me, what with having every aspect of your life history set out and dictated by an ambiguous group of religious leaders. Oh, and say I want to be an intellectual, rather than a soldier grunt as was dictated, they turn you into a mindless drone and work you to death in a mining camp. Sounds like a fantastic place.

You realize that they try and give you the job you are best suited as, right? If you want to be a scientist (or their equivalent anyway), and show great aptitude throughout your youth for learning and comprehension, they will probably give you a role within some sort of research field.

It's still pretty flawed however. It's just like the caste system from Hinduism, once you're given your lot in life, there is no option from improvement. You're branded for life. It's like a more a pretty version of Dwarven Society; while unlike Dwarfs, you're not looked down upon for your role, you still have no option of moving up (unless you become a paragon of course.)

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 16 juillet 2011 - 09:24 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

As Filament says, there are promotions in Qunari society. However, once you are in the army, you stay in the army.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rifneno wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Except they can brainwash you anytime they want. It doesn't matter if you hate farming, they'll MAKE you love it.

When exactly was this establsihed?

I'm fairly certain it was somewhere in the codex, but there's also the whole "anyone with the most microscopic shred of common sense can figured it out on their own" thing. They all babble on about "certainty" constantly. And they mean it. To the point that we see a saarebas commit suicide because the code tells him to, the same code that's abused him his entire life. And the Arishok considers it an insult to suggest that it was a difficult decision for him. What does that sound like to you?

You seem reather eager for a fight. I didn't even come here looking to argue here and you've started insulting me again. There's a difference between having fervor and being brainwashed. Just because the Qunari believe  strongly in what they do doesn't mean they've been mind controlled. I was asking for examples of turning unwilling participants into loyal followers.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 17 juillet 2011 - 03:50 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You seem reather eager for a fight. I didn't even come here looking to argue here and you've started insulting me again. There's a difference between having fervor and being brainwashed. Just because the Qunari believe  strongly in what they do doesn't mean they've been mind controlled. I was asking for examples of turning unwilling participants into loyal followers.

• Fenris: I still can't believe Hawke saved you.
• Isabela: You've been saying that for years. Would you have turned me over to the Qunari?
• Fenris: No, but I know what they do to their prisoners.
• Isabela: Execute them horribly, I imagine.
• Fenris: The Qunari waste nothing. They would reeducate you into a loyal follower of the Qun.
• Isabela: Pfft. Could I refuse?
• Fenris: There's always qamek, which turns you into a mindless laborer. Like I said, they waste nothing.
• Isabela: Oh.
• Fenris: If you wish to thank Hawke, he's/she's standing right there.

[DRTJR]

I wonder how the Qunari achieve the ability to turn someone into a mindless drone with out blood magic?

[MichaelFinnegan]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You seem reather eager for a fight. I didn't even come here looking to argue here and you've started insulting me again. There's a difference between having fervor and being brainwashed. Just because the Qunari believe  strongly in what they do doesn't mean they've been mind controlled. I was asking for examples of turning unwilling participants into loyal followers.

• Fenris: I still can't believe Hawke saved you.
• Isabela: You've been saying that for years. Would you have turned me over to the Qunari?
• Fenris: No, but I know what they do to their prisoners.
• Isabela: Execute them horribly, I imagine.
• Fenris: The Qunari waste nothing. They would reeducate you into a loyal follower of the Qun.
• Isabela: Pfft. Could I refuse?
• Fenris: There's always qamek, which turns you into a mindless laborer. Like I said, they waste nothing.
• Isabela: Oh.
  Fenris: If you wish to thank Hawke, he's/she's standing right there.

Well, making someone a loyal follower of the Qun isn't the same as making him/her love something like farming, which I thought was what the question was about.

Qamek could be viewed as a sort of last resort to force the prisoner into becoming a mindless drone - again not exactly the same thing as making him/her love that profession.

[MichaelFinnegan]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

It's still pretty flawed however. It's just like the caste system from Hinduism, once you're given your lot in life, there is no option from improvement. You're branded for life. It's like a more a pretty version of Dwarven Society; while unlike Dwarfs, you're not looked down upon for your role, you still have no option of moving up (unless you become a paragon of course.)

Is that how you see it? I see it as a society that has supplanted something like the commandments of the Maker for something like the dictates of the society - an extreme example of communism or socialism.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DRTJR wrote...

I wonder how the Qunari achieve the ability to turn someone into a mindless drone with out blood magic?

The same way that the rest of Thedas got Tranquils, I guess.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

DRTJR wrote...

I wonder how the Qunari achieve the ability to turn someone into a mindless drone with out blood magic?

Conditioning, perhaps. You don't need magic to train an animal. You just need time and some sort of discipline, whether that be rewards (biscuits) or punishment (choke chains and whips).

Considering what the qunari do to subjugate their mages, I can only guess at their...techniques.

[Rifneno]

Filament wrote...

Specifically Fenris mentions to Isabela how the qunari could use 'qamek' to make her into a mindless laborer. Not exactly make her love it, per se. Of course, Fenris could possibly be reciting propaganda regarding how dramatic its effects are, on account of being from Tevinter and all. Or maybe it really does do that.

No, it really does do that. I doubt Fenris knows it but he's only backing up claims mentioned in Bioware's lore. And I quote, "Some claim that the qunari were guilty of terrorizing the populace. They divided children from their families and sent adults to ‘learning camps’ for indoctrination in their religious philosophies. Those who refused to obey were forced into indentured servitude or sent to mines or construction camps to labor… often until they perished of sheer exhaustion or starvation."

Indoctrination. When's the other time Bioware has used that word? Oh, right, when an ancient malevolent alien race stripped their victims of free will to the point that they just sat in the cold and froze to death waiting for their master's orders. I could go on about the learning camps, which I'm sure where put in quotes for a reason and I've seen referred to by Mark Kirby as "reeducation camps" which you can google to find such charming descriptions as "intensive political indoctrination," but that's probably overkill. But I do think it's necessary to reiterate: they took people who didn't want to convert, chemically enslaved them, and worked them until they ****ing dropped dead of exhaustion.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You seem reather eager for a fight. I didn't even come here looking to argue here and you've started insulting me again. There's a difference between having fervor and being brainwashed. Just because the Qunari believe  strongly in what they do doesn't mean they've been mind controlled. I was asking for examples of turning unwilling participants into loyal followers.

When they're all full of "fervor", common sense indicates there is something a little bit off. A fight? I don't really call people sniping at each other from a thousand miles apart a fight. Regardless, I'm not trying to start anything. If I'm a little discourteous... well, blame yourself. You don't get to call people trolls for having a different opinion about a video game character and then expect them to have any respect for you. I stand by what I said: it's common sense that there's at least some degree of brainwashing with the qunari.

DRTJR wrote...

I wonder how the Qunari achieve the ability to turn someone into a mindless drone with out blood magic?

Drugs I'd imagine.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You realize that "indoctrination" is the usual choice of word for an opposition instead of "socialization", right? Those two words are essentially the same, however indoctrination is negatively charged, and socialization is positively charged. It would make sense for the Chantry to use the word indoctrination, instead of socialization, because that would put the Qunari in a negative light of the reader.

Also, I don't think that all Qunari are as fervent as the Arishok. Sten's companions springs to mind, as they seemed far less like Sten, and a lot less strict. There will always, as in all societies, be different levels of fervor to the core belief of said society. Some Qunari adhere to every single word of the Qun, others are more laid back, but still follow the rules of their society.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 17 juillet 2011 - 01:02 .

[TEWR]

I'm wondering just how Sten wasn't able to be fooled by the demons when he isn't a mage. I realize he saw them get killed, and that stuck with him, but even so one would think he would've been tricked.

Kossith must have high willpower or something

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't think that it is any different than when any of us realize that we are dreaming. Sten wished for his companion to be alive, but he knew it could never happen. The demon's failure was granting Sten his wish, and not realizing that Sten would see through it.

[MichaelFinnegan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You realize that "indoctrination" is the usual choice of word for an opposition instead of "socialization", right? Those two words are essentially the same, however indoctrination is negatively charged, and socialization is positively charged. It would make sense for the Chantry to use the word indoctrination, instead of socialization, because that would put the Qunari in a negative light of the reader.

I think the above misses the point. I got the impression that the qunari aren't trying to hide from the fact that they routinely indoctrinate. The frequent usage of "the demands of the Qun" implies that the Qun is accepted rather uncritically. Theirs is not to reason why, but to follow. The Arishok says as much during Act 2 (when the Viscount asks you to find out what the Arishok is up to): "I'm not here at Kirkwall to indoctrinate anyone [this time]... but I am simply stuck here because of the theft of the Tome of Koslun." (paraphrased of course). In fact I'd go so far as to say that they might be proud of such an indoctrination, because they think it results in a superior race.

Also, I don't think that all Qunari are as fervent as the Arishok. Sten's companions springs to mind, as they seemed far less like Sten, and a lot less strict. There will always, as in all societies, be different levels of fervor to the core belief of said society. Some Qunari adhere to every single word of the Qun, others are more laid back, but still follow the rules of their society.

Fervent? I'd say the Arishok was more annoyed, irritated, and impatient than anything else. Living several years in a place like Kirkwall would probably have something to do with that. As far as being less strict, I don't know. I get the impression (again) that the following, of those loyal to the Qun, is absolute, with no compromises involved.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The point was that the Qunari does not see it as indoctrination, they see it as socialization. And the Arishok says that he is not there to convert, not indoctrinate.

[MichaelFinnegan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The point was that the Qunari does not see it as indoctrination, they see it as socialization. And the Arishok says that he is not there to convert, not indoctrinate.

I think you're wrong on both counts. First, the exact words the Arishok uses are "we did not come equipped to indoctrinate. I am here to satisfy a demand you cannot understand."

And if I were to put myself in the Arishok's shoes (heavens forbid), I would not hide behind euphemisms. I would talk straight - state my purpose as it were; for if the purpose were indoctrination, then that is what I'd say.