25 réponses à ce sujet

[Volus Warlord]

TIM is probably the character with the most polarized following out of all of the major characters-that is, lots of people either love him or hate him.

But what do we really know about TIM? What can we say we know for sure about this "Illusive Man?"

Current Status and Occupation:
He is supposedly the chief executive and primary benefactor of Cerberus. Any activity outside Cerberus-and much of his activity inside Cerberus-is pretty much completely unknown.

So how do we confirm that TIM even has a whole lot of power in Cerberus? Easy-we can't. All of the listed options are viable giving the current situation.

1.) TIM is the chief executive of Cerberus, but heavily reliant on outside sources for his money.
This makes the most sense IMHO. If he had the vast majority of the funds needed to run Cerberus right out of his pocket, his identity would be fairly obvious to the public.  He's pretty much a pseudo-Tony Stark and there are not a whole lot of those around.
2.) TIM is not the chief executive of Cerberus, but is reasonably high in the chain of command
If he was a nobody in the Cerberus hierarchy there's no way he'd be able to do what he's done with Shepard. But that doesn't mean he's in charge.
3.) TIM has little power within Cerberus, he's mostly a figurehead
TIM is the public face of the organization, but he answers to others. It appears he's overlooking Shepard's operation to maintain face.

Can any of these options be proven or disproven? No, not really,no. Bioware could pretty much rip out any of this at any time.  They could say, "btw, TIM wasn't the guy in charge of Cerberus" and not really be contracting ME2 or ME1

And then there is the whole Cerberus situation in ME3.

The givens:
At least part of Cerberus is indoctrinated in one way or another.
Cerberus apparently had a reasonably well equipped and trained armed force at hand.

The theories:
1.) TIM has been indoctrinated all along, since the start of ME2 and possibly much longer than that.
Rationalized:
The Reapers want Shepard alive, and TIM has been attempting to put him in a situation where he would be captured i.e. the Collector ship. ME2 was a big front in order for the Reapers to get Shepard alive and functional for their plans, whatever they may be. All the good things TIM did for Shep was a mere ploy for trust and respect.
My humble opinion:  must retain the vomit.. glaring contractions.. "Hey, I work for you guys, so I will create the tool of your destruction and compromise your foothold in the galaxy" (the collector base). "Hey, i could turn this guy over while he's sedated, but instead I'll give him a kickass ship and let him build a squad of the best to destroy you." "Hey, why aren't I a mindless husk yet?" "Hey, I love you guys, so I'm going to pour ungodly amounts of money into research to destroy you." This theory raises more questions than answers, and for a game that's supposed give some closure to the series, that's not a good thing.

2.) TIM was indoctrinated at some point after ME2 ended.
Rationalized:
After getting all that sexy Reaper tech (even if you blew up the base, you still did some collection on the Collecter ship and the Derelict Reaper), TIM gets overzealous with studying all the material at hand, gets careless, indoctrination spreads through science divisions faster than Scale Itch on the Normandy, and soon the whole Cerberus organizition is well on their way to Huskville.

My humble opinion: This makes sense, and such activity does fit in with TIM's motives and previous actions. The downside? A bit anti-climatic. One of the most vital characters in ME2 goes down moaning and swinging his arms at you. Some might call it justice, but that does not make it entertaining.

3.) TIM is not indoctrinated, and will not get indoctrinated.
Rationalized:
TIM sees indoctrination in some Cerberus sections, he quarantines them, but that does not prevent them from breaking away from his command and serving the Reapers.  Cerberus splits into Loyalist and Reaper factions, and TIM begins to take discreet moves to eliminate the Cerberus agents no longer in his control.

My humble opinion:  It'd make for an interesting scernario, working for Cerberus by kilinng Cerberus. But I just don't see it happening. Not after Bioware has gone so far to make Cerberus look like Satan organization with Overlord and such.

4.) TIM is not indoctrinated, but will get indoctrinated at some point in ME3.

The indoctrinated cells rebel. The reapers attack. TIM is no longer able to simply stay in the dark but is forced to be more direct in his methods. He gets exposed, and indoctrinated.

My humble opinion: This  I feel is the best solution to TIM.. the means that would satisfy the supporters and haters to some extent. TIM does what he can to beat the Reapers. He may fight firsthand, he may toss you some of his less-than-ethical research, he may do many things. But he ends up indoctrinated and you are forced-willingly or not-to put him down.

Thoughts/comments?

[AesirMan]

I'd vote for 3 on the theories part and maybe 4. 1 and 2 seem like a slap in the face to the cerberus loyalists out there.... but I really don't see how people would get indoctrinated by reaper tech if one just uses machines...

Drop Loki mechs and uplink collector base with 100's of VI's and AI's data-mine the crap out of it... Loki mechs then scan, dismantle and salvage and then quarantine items pass the omega 4 relay. Profit. Use mechs to study while people are NOWHERE near the artifacts. The have the objects be around 1-2 people at a time for no longer than 1-2 hours each week. So you can use an entire staff for an artifact and give people time to replenish the willpower.... But thats another rant...

[Praetor Knight]

I like #3.

[Inverness Moon]

I think TIM is too well protected normally to be indoctrinated. If he wasn't indoctrinated by the Arca Monolith, then that most likely isn't going to change out of the blue. He'll know to be careful since he has plenty of information on indoctrination.

I like number 3 the best of course. I can't really see TIM being indoctrinated as anything other than ruining his character. Those that consider him a cliche uber-villain fully expect it to happen, which is why it would be extremely disappointing.

TIM is supposed to be a very gray character who represents the best and worst of humanity at once, it would be disappointing if BioWare deviated from that in ME3.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 13 juillet 2011 - 04:22 .

[Sons of Horus]

3# and 4# Would be great. Well done Volus Warlord.

[alperez]

Personally i got to go with #1 for both, the evidence he is in charge and gets outside financing is there in both what Miranda tells you and what Edi does.

As for the indoctrination, i believe everything you need to know is there if you just look at it. The contact with the reaper artifact changes him somehow and over the course of time he falls further an further into indoctrination.

The inconsitencies you point out are only inconsitent in the context of what we already know and to me aren't even that inconsitent..

Saren was indoctrinated, he fought his indoctrination, tried to find ways to stop himself being indoctrinated further. He also still retained some freedom of will and some element of choice right up to when he shot himself in the head (if that was how you played it).

Indoctrination works differently on different people thats been established, over the course of time the indoctrinated person loses all sembelance of freewill and eventually becomes a mindless husk, also established.

Some of TIM's actions may be a result of his conscious mind still trying to do the right thing or they may be a result of an overall gameplan we know nothing about just yet. TIM rebuilding Shepard, giving Shepard a ship and means to take out the collectors may have been TIM fighting his own indoctrination or may have been badly executed attempts to do the reapers bidding.

Without seeing the full extent of how the storyline plays out we just don't know for certain yet but there are parallels with Saren someone we do know was indoctrinated over time.

[Weltea]

hm,I kinda got the impression that TIM is one of the three people in charge (based on stuff he tells you,Miranda tells you,the scientists in Jack's loyalty mission...)
1) you're right doesn't really make sense
2) not only do I think two months might be to short to indoctrinate TIM (he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who actually works on the reaper stuff himself and sticks close to the labs all day to find out what got discovered) but it would also mean that most of Cerberus is not indoctrinated (no one but the science division,probably not even all of them) and instead blindly follow an order to put all resources into killing one person while Reapers are attacking...I really hope that's not an approch BW takes...
3)I like this idea and think it possible (also while Cerberus has been portrayed as the bad guy,TIM hasn't necessarily been - again,what the scientists say in Jack's loyalty mission gives room for interpretation,Miranda trusts him to look after the people under his command,and if I remember this correctly he didn't even know what was going on with the Overlord Project (?))
4)could come across as a bit cheap (although I really want the chance to put TIM down at some point and has basically been done before (the scientists on the derelict Reaper,the scientists in Arrival,even Saren...).Giving TIM the same treatment?

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

i see TIM being kind of like saren in ME3. indoctrinated and thinking he is saving the human race by working with the reapers. im not completely sure but in retribution i think he salvages pieces of the collector base, but that is from my crappy memory and only reading it once. and i think thats where the reapers take his mind. but im not sure if thats in retribution or not

[AesirMan]

Salvaging a base can be easily done with VI, AI and Loki Mechs.

[ladyvader]

One of the videos for ME3, TIMs eyes are now glowing and he has the a very evil look on his face. I say he is under the reapers influence.

[Inverness Moon]

ladyvader wrote...

One of the videos for ME3, TIMs eyes are now glowing and he has the a very evil look on his face. I say he is under the reapers influence.

Link please.

Edit: TIM's eyes have always glowed since the events in Evolution, particularly for the paragon ending of ME2 when he gets out of his chair, walking toward Shepard angrily.

Also, people said he had an "evil" look on his face when he smiles while looking at the collector base if you save it.

Neither of those is proof of reaper influence, or even supportive of it if you're thinking rationally.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 13 juillet 2011 - 06:25 .

[BatmanPWNS]

I hope for #3. Also I think it is pretty random that TIM and Cereberus are indoctrinated all of a sudden. I mean TIM has been exposed to Reaper technology but it was never suggested that his ever been indoctrinated nor have we seen any signs from him or other Cereberus operatives.

[pablodurando]

#3 is the best in my opinion. But why does Cerberus have to be indoctrinated. Maybe they have a good reason to be hunting down Shepard, there's too many variable to just have 4 options.

[LordPennlocke]

I like #2 and #4. Both make the most sense to me and would appeal to both sides of the aisle, as you have already stated.

[ladyvader]

Inverness Moon wrote...

ladyvader wrote...

One of the videos for ME3, TIMs eyes are now glowing and he has the a very evil look on his face. I say he is under the reapers influence.

Link please.

Edit: TIM's eyes have always glowed since the events in Evolution, particularly for the paragon ending of ME2 when he gets out of his chair, walking toward Shepard angrily.

Also, people said he had an "evil" look on his face when he smiles while looking at the collector base if you save it.

Neither of those is proof of reaper influence, or even supportive of it if you're thinking rationally.

His eyes never glowed once during ME2 when Shepard was talking to him.  Not like in the video I saw.  And damnit, now I can't find it.  Which is totally pissing me off.  Once I do I will post a link to what I am talking about.  It wasn't anything from ME2.

[Inverness Moon]

ladyvader wrote...

His eyes never glowed once during ME2 when Shepard was talking to him.  Not like in the video I saw.  And damnit, now I can't find it.  Which is totally pissing me off.  Once I do I will post a link to what I am talking about.  It wasn't anything from ME2.

If you can't find it now, it must be a conspiracy. 

Anyhow, this is the scene I'm talking about: http://www.youtube.c...FZ9jYMc#t=4m17s

I consider those glowing eyes.

[Arijharn]

I'd like to submit option #5, specifically in regards to ME3

Cerberus is working for the Reapers, but it's based on the principle that:
a) It'll slow the Reaper's 'consumption' of Earth
It'll keep the majority of Reapers in close orbit around Earth for the majority of the game.

It makes sense to me that this would work as high level strategy for Cerberus because
a) It takes advantage of Cerberus' own notoriety
It takes advantage of the Reaper's assumed hubris

By performing essentially as the Reaper's eager dogsbodies, Cerberus makes a 'deal' with the Reapers: "We'll fetch/kill Commander Shephard and co if 'you'll slow your consumption of Earth.'" It works assuming that the Reapers have 'low power' having jetted their way in from dark space towards Earth (i.e., conservation of energy) and it works because Cerberus, by taking advantage of their own notoriety essentially becomes (at least to galactic face) Saren 2.0, which is something the Reapers can understand, even if they truly intend to betray them anyway in the end.

But, Cerberus' true objective is to slow the Reapers down and to contain the majority of Reaper forces on Earth to destroy them all in one massive counter-attack. Cerberus makes a good 'showing' to it's Reaper overlords with all the attempts on Shephard's life, but unknown to them, Shephard continues to get information sent from Cerberus themselves as to locations of the majority of Cerberus kill teams (and I say majority and not all, because perhaps it is likely that some Cerberus teams might get a bit too carried away by their orders to kill Shephard due to ME1 events and because it is conceivable that some Cerberus teams have indeed become Indoctrinated) so Shephard can triumph. The idea though is that while the loss of those teams to Shephard is regrettable, it's the best way to ensure that Shephard can continue about his/her duty to assemble reinforcements and gain the technological superiority needed to meet and defeat the Reapers (the lionshare still in or around Earth) in a large battle.

This works because:
a) Notable engagements happen around planets as per the Codex entries. It works for the Reapers because destroying the organic/ally fleet will cripple them to the point that the Reapers would be able 'mop up' with considerable ease afterwards.
It works for us because the Reapers are basically in one centralized location.

When Shep and co arrive, Cerberus sends out a general order to all 'true' Cerberus operatives to immediately cease hostilities with the Systems Alliance and its allies, and joins forces with them in stopping Reaper actions, and to discontinue combat operations against Commander Shephard and his/her allies immediately.

The general idea I believe works because I can't believe that either one necessarily believes the other party, and yet either party 'for the most part' can afford to betray the alliance. It also works because Cerberus recognizes that Shephard represents the best hope, but it also could mean that Cerberus could independently be working out their own strategy if our hero fails. The Reapers can't 'betray' because Cerberus is performing as well as Saren was by taking care of their enemy for them and because they may still be 'exhausted' from their long journey.

[Inverness Moon]

Arijharn wrote...

I'd like to submit option #5, specifically in regards to ME3

Cerberus is working for the Reapers, but it's based on the principle that:
a) It'll slow the Reaper's 'consumption' of Earth
It'll keep the majority of Reapers in close orbit around Earth for the majority of the game.

It makes sense to me that this would work as high level strategy for Cerberus because
a) It takes advantage of Cerberus' own notoriety
It takes advantage of the Reaper's assumed hubris

By performing essentially as the Reaper's eager dogsbodies, Cerberus makes a 'deal' with the Reapers: "We'll fetch/kill Commander Shephard and co if 'you'll slow your consumption of Earth.'" It works assuming that the Reapers have 'low power' having jetted their way in from dark space towards Earth (i.e., conservation of energy) and it works because Cerberus, by taking advantage of their own notoriety essentially becomes (at least to galactic face) Saren 2.0, which is something the Reapers can understand, even if they truly intend to betray them anyway in the end.

But, Cerberus' true objective is to slow the Reapers down and to contain the majority of Reaper forces on Earth to destroy them all in one massive counter-attack. Cerberus makes a good 'showing' to it's Reaper overlords with all the attempts on Shephard's life, but unknown to them, Shephard continues to get information sent from Cerberus themselves as to locations of the majority of Cerberus kill teams (and I say majority and not all, because perhaps it is likely that some Cerberus teams might get a bit too carried away by their orders to kill Shephard due to ME1 events and because it is conceivable that some Cerberus teams have indeed become Indoctrinated) so Shephard can triumph. The idea though is that while the loss of those teams to Shephard is regrettable, it's the best way to ensure that Shephard can continue about his/her duty to assemble reinforcements and gain the technological superiority needed to meet and defeat the Reapers (the lionshare still in or around Earth) in a large battle.

This works because:
a) Notable engagements happen around planets as per the Codex entries. It works for the Reapers because destroying the organic/ally fleet will cripple them to the point that the Reapers would be able 'mop up' with considerable ease afterwards.
It works for us because the Reapers are basically in one centralized location.

When Shep and co arrive, Cerberus sends out a general order to all 'true' Cerberus operatives to immediately cease hostilities with the Systems Alliance and its allies, and joins forces with them in stopping Reaper actions, and to discontinue combat operations against Commander Shephard and his/her allies immediately.

The general idea I believe works because I can't believe that either one necessarily believes the other party, and yet either party 'for the most part' can afford to betray the alliance. It also works because Cerberus recognizes that Shephard represents the best hope, but it also could mean that Cerberus could independently be working out their own strategy if our hero fails. The Reapers can't 'betray' because Cerberus is performing as well as Saren was by taking care of their enemy for them and because they may still be 'exhausted' from their long journey.

Wow, I'm impressed. That is one thing I hadn't considered, and I think it would be one of the better ways this could all turn out.

[Arijharn]

Thanks.

I think it's actually rather elegant in a twisted sort of way:
1) It makes what Casey said true.
2) It should, if ideally portrayed, challenge people's perceptions of Cerberus (and TIM). Note though that I say challenge though and not necessarily change them.

It becomes another example of Cerberus taking advantage of its own infamy to cause change (the other example was getting the Alliance to act by sending the VS to Horizon in the first place) and I think the sort of machiavellian maneuverability that the plot takes is well and truly up TIM's alley. Hell, TIM could probably help sell the idea to the Reapers that he actually is Indoctrinated courtesy of the Arca Monolith.

The only real issues I see with it is how Cerberus can really get the Reapers to stay on Earth by 'slowing their consumption' down though. They could probably say words to the effect that by taking their time they can better root out resistance, but that seems pretty flimsy to me in that there is no real way that Cerberus could make such a 'demand' at least, none that I've thought up yet. I guess it may require a bit of serendipty, but I think Serendipty and 'planning' are kinda mutually exclusive...

[Volus Warlord]

Interesting...

So #5 TIM collaborates with the Reapers with the sole intent to undermine and betray them.

How to keep the Reapers on Earth? Easy. Reapers probably consider humans the most dangerous.. considering the primary threat in ME and ME2 was mostly human, as compared to before ME where (presumably) they thought the turians where most dangerous.

So, with the homeworld of the galaxy's most powerful race now under control.. may as well start building of a new reaper now! The turians, quarians, salarians, etc.. can't hurt you! *cough*cough*!

[Arijharn]

Yeah, basically because Cerberus has a dark reputation to begin with, he leverages it with the Reapers. It works because he can use Cerberus' own goals for human advancement to gain faith with the Reapers and the Reapers gain by getting a powerful ally who would do the tedious type tasks (aka; hunting down Shephard).

Why would the Reapers trust him? That's it, they don't have to completely trust him. They just see some examples and for the most part 'accept' it, even if they don't fully buy it. As I said; neither is in a position to betray the other because Cerberus needs the Reapers to have faith enough in Cerberus that they remain in a centralized location, and the Reapers just benefit from gaining another eager lackey.

[alperez]

Arijhan

There are 2 problems i see with your theory, 1. its rationalised to show cerberus as something they may not be and 2. all powerful sentient machines who place no value on organics doing any deal with organics.

For the first part and i'm not saying its true in you case but most ceberus fans rather than accept the fact that cerberus are evil try to come up with complex justifications why cerberus seem to be doing what they are in me3, when the simplest explanation which is usually the most likely is one they disagree with.

Basically its the Cerberus can't be indoctrinated, TIM can't be indoctrinated defence, (despite evidence that one or both of these things have been hinted at in books and in what we apparently now about me3) so instead it has to be part of a intriguingly complex master plan.

So i'll add a little spin to your theory, it could be in fact your right up to a point and that is indeed what cerberus think they are doing except for the simple fact that being indoctrinated they don't realise they aren't doing what they think they are for their reasons but because thats what the reapers want them to do.

The second part is the reapers working willingly or even reluctantly with organics, if this was something they would consider then why didn't they do the same with Saren? why instead of indoctrinating every single organic they come across didn't they before now go, you know what lets spin the wheel and make a deal with these organics? Why not instead of Cerberus or TIM would soverign or Harbinger not just have said, Shepard join us?

The simplest explanation is of course they value organics only for what they can reap from them, they don't value co-operation, don't feel they need to make such deals and feel organics are basically insects to be trampled.

So again i'll add a little twist to your theogy, perhaps to an extent you are right and the reapers make such a deal with TIM with the goal being closer intergration leading to indoctrination giving them the same tools but under their complete control, something the reapers seem to enjoy.

[Arijharn]

alperez wrote...

Arijhan

There are 2 problems i see with your theory, 1. its rationalised to show cerberus as something they may not be and 2. all powerful sentient machines who place no value on organics doing any deal with organics.

For the first part and i'm not saying its true in you case but most ceberus fans rather than accept the fact that cerberus are evil try to come up with complex justifications why cerberus seem to be doing what they are in me3, when the simplest explanation which is usually the most likely is one they disagree with.

Basically its the Cerberus can't be indoctrinated, TIM can't be indoctrinated defence, (despite evidence that one or both of these things have been hinted at in books and in what we apparently now about me3) so instead it has to be part of a intriguingly complex master plan.

So i'll add a little spin to your theory, it could be in fact your right up to a point and that is indeed what cerberus think they are doing except for the simple fact that being indoctrinated they don't realise they aren't doing what they think they are for their reasons but because thats what the reapers want them to do.

The second part is the reapers working willingly or even reluctantly with organics, if this was something they would consider then why didn't they do the same with Saren? why instead of indoctrinating every single organic they come across didn't they before now go, you know what lets spin the wheel and make a deal with these organics? Why not instead of Cerberus or TIM would soverign or Harbinger not just have said, Shepard join us?

The simplest explanation is of course they value organics only for what they can reap from them, they don't value co-operation, don't feel they need to make such deals and feel organics are basically insects to be trampled.

So again i'll add a little twist to your theogy, perhaps to an extent you are right and the reapers make such a deal with TIM with the goal being closer intergration leading to indoctrination giving them the same tools but under their complete control, something the reapers seem to enjoy.

I feel you've misunderstood me, so let me try and clear the air. To directly address your points though It's precisely because it's 'rationalised as something they may not be' is why I think it's a good idea. It's far too easy at the moment to 'dismiss' what Cerberus is doing because they've done 'some' admittedly shady things in the past. I mean, look at your own statement: "Rationalised as something they may not be" already has conontations that make it seem as they're completely irredeemable. That's a problem I feel, because I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with wanting to look at for number 1. It's just that instead of 'me' as Cerberus' number one, they are supposed to look out for humanity as a general whole. You're whole statement reeks of bias to be honest, which is the point I'm trying to portray: that Cerberus wants to look out for humanity, and the best way they can do that re the Reapers is to empower other races to effectively help against the Reapers because they represent a threat to all of us. You've called Cerberus 'evil' and that's fair enough, but I think concepts like 'good' and 'evil' to be honestly ridiculous in this game and universe that has otherwise tried to be shown as morally ambiguous for every organisation, whether it's the Alliance with their Cerberus ties to the Council authorizing the usage of the Genophage. This ambiguity was also a stated design goal for Cerberus and TIM. I digress.

I'm not totally sure what you mean in regards to your second point as I think it's plain as day that the Reapers weren't going to honour their bargain with Saren, because by the time it comes for Saren to 'collect his due' he has nothing in so far as to offer them anymore. That doesn't mean however, that the Reaper's didn't benefit from his help. I think it's a pretty basic concept. The Reaper's gain the 'benefit' from Cerberus' actions on the provisio that eventually they'll help with 'human empowerment.' I'm trying to say though that Cerberus knows this promise is a crock and they're 'okay with it' because Reaper hubris is going to let the Reaper's perform as predictably as possible. Reaper's self-believe in the inevitability for their eventual success essentially lays the groundwork for their eventual destruction. How does Cerberus 'know this'? Because they're the ones that are taking advantage of the fact that everyones dislike of them (including apparently even yours!) to 'get close' and to 'lull the Reapers.'

[Orange Face_]

Two other thoughts 1) Cerberus isn't indoctrinated but they think that Shep is... This is due to his exposure to beacons, artifacts, reaper, and reaper base. Because they oppose him Shep assumes that they are indoctrinated.

2) TIM is a Reaper, but the reapers have factions of their own and each is competing to get the largest share of the current harvest with the prize being Humans. Saving Shep makes sense here because he can oppose the other factions leaving TIM free to control humanity.

[Happy Beam]

MAJOR SPOILERS.

Mass Effect: Evolution reveals during the battle of Shanxi the Illusive Man (real name Jack Harper) was turned into a half husk.



http://images4.wikia...siveManHusk.jpg



More information: http://masseffect.wi...ki/Illusive_Man


... Don't hurt me!

Modifié par Happy Beam, 17 juillet 2011 - 03:07 .