149 réponses à ce sujet

[txgoldrush]

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

People would be extremely unhappy with Leliana as a protagonist and rightfully so. Hawke is already restrictive enough.

And I disagree about Leliana being the deepest DA:O companion.

Its a two way street, the more customizable the character is the less of a personality he or she has. This leads to characters being divorced from the plot.

Than who is deeper? Disregarding her DLC, Alistair and maybe Morrigan are as deep as Leliana is (they are the main three charatcres anyway), but witht he DLC, its no contest.

But what is undebatable is that Leliana is by far the most dynamic character of Origins, with Alistair second.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Leliana is just an elite Chantry mook. Next.

[txgoldrush]

turian councilor Knockout wrote...

Leliana is overrated, common preachy fool woman.

preachy.....no...actually the opposite.

She doesn't really try and convert anyone, even respecting Wynne and caring for her even though she clearly has different beliefs than hers.

As an agnostic who thinks religion is mostly bad, I found Leliana to be an excellent character with deep and complex views on religion. She is a step forward for religious characters in RPGs, who are mostly protrayed as one dimensional zealots, especially in JRPGs. Her Heel Face Turn was also well done and extremely subtle.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 14 juillet 2011 - 02:09 .

[seraphymon]

txgoldrush wrote...

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

People would be extremely unhappy with Leliana as a protagonist and rightfully so. Hawke is already restrictive enough.

And I disagree about Leliana being the deepest DA:O companion.

Its a two way street, the more customizable the character is the less of a personality he or she has. This leads to characters being divorced from the plot.

Than who is deeper? Disregarding her DLC, Alistair and maybe Morrigan are as deep as Leliana is (they are the main three charatcres anyway), but witht he DLC, its no contest.

But what is undebatable is that Leliana is by far the most dynamic character of Origins, with Alistair second.

to you. and like every other topic you have made. Thats just your opinion though you treat as some sort of fact. I think Morrigan is the best character no just in dragon age but 1 of the best in my gaming history for deepness. I like Leliana alot as well, same for the best bud of alistair, just not as much. JUst like the majority love Varric from DA2. To me i dont care if he dies in a fire. Hes prolly the best dwarf companion Ive had, but i could care less about him.

Point is you like to argue every point thrown against you, flip up the board and change the goal posts, just cause people don't share your opnion of thinking Leliana is the best and or deserves to be the main protagonist for DA3.

[CrimsonZephyr]

txgoldrush wrote...

turian councilor Knockout wrote...

Leliana is overrated, common preachy fool woman.

preachy.....no...actually the opposite.

She doesn't really try and convert anyone, even respecting Wynne and caring for her even though she clearly has different beliefs than hers.

As an agnostic who thinks religion is mostly bad, I found Leliana to be an excellent character with deep and complex views on religion. She is a step forward for religious characters in RPGs, who are mostly protrayed as one dimensional zealots, especially in JRPGs. Her Heel Face Turn was also well done and extremely subtle.

Yeah, no, in DA2, she is a Chantry black ops agent. The Seekers are basically templars on steroids. I honestly can't respect someone who's that much of a flunky for a militant religion.

[txgoldrush]

seraphymon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

People would be extremely unhappy with Leliana as a protagonist and rightfully so. Hawke is already restrictive enough.

And I disagree about Leliana being the deepest DA:O companion.

Its a two way street, the more customizable the character is the less of a personality he or she has. This leads to characters being divorced from the plot.

Than who is deeper? Disregarding her DLC, Alistair and maybe Morrigan are as deep as Leliana is (they are the main three charatcres anyway), but witht he DLC, its no contest.

But what is undebatable is that Leliana is by far the most dynamic character of Origins, with Alistair second.

to you. and like every other topic you have made. Thats just your opinion though you treat as some sort of fact. I think Morrigan is the best character no just in dragon age but 1 of the best in my gaming history for deepness. I like Leliana alot as well, same for the best bud of alistair, just not as much. JUst like the majority love Varric from DA2. To me i dont care if he dies in a fire. Hes prolly the best dwarf companion Ive had, but i could care less about him.

Point is you like to argue every point thrown against you, flip up the board and change the goal posts, just cause people don't share your opnion of thinking Leliana is the best and or deserves to be the main protagonist for DA3.

Wrong, how deep and dynamic a character is are facts...its likabiltiy that is an opinion.

Leliana is my fave character (or one of them now thanks to Aveline and Varric, who may have surpassed her as my DA fave), however, there is a reason why I think she would be a great DAIII protagonist is because where the setting probably will be, that the story will involve the Chantry and the Seekers in a major way, the themes of religion and faith can be explored, how she is set up in DAII, and the depth and dynamic of the character, as well as being a servicable protagonist before. There is more reasons for her to be a protagonist than "I like her".

Would I say that Tali should be a protagonist in a major Mass Effect game even though she is my favorite Bioware character? No, because she would simply not be a very good protagonist, she isn't the right type of character to carry a game. She is better as a support character and a LI.

[txgoldrush]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

turian councilor Knockout wrote...

Leliana is overrated, common preachy fool woman.

preachy.....no...actually the opposite.

She doesn't really try and convert anyone, even respecting Wynne and caring for her even though she clearly has different beliefs than hers.

As an agnostic who thinks religion is mostly bad, I found Leliana to be an excellent character with deep and complex views on religion. She is a step forward for religious characters in RPGs, who are mostly protrayed as one dimensional zealots, especially in JRPGs. Her Heel Face Turn was also well done and extremely subtle.

Yeah, no, in DA2, she is a Chantry black ops agent. The Seekers are basically templars on steroids. I honestly can't respect someone who's that much of a flunky for a militant religion.

and what makes you think Leliana won't oppose murder in the name of the Maker? What makes her a militant? Does protecting Chantry personel and making sure dark magic doesn't spread make her a one dimensional religious militant?

It doesn't.

[seraphymon]

txgoldrush wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

People would be extremely unhappy with Leliana as a protagonist and rightfully so. Hawke is already restrictive enough.

And I disagree about Leliana being the deepest DA:O companion.

Its a two way street, the more customizable the character is the less of a personality he or she has. This leads to characters being divorced from the plot.

Than who is deeper? Disregarding her DLC, Alistair and maybe Morrigan are as deep as Leliana is (they are the main three charatcres anyway), but witht he DLC, its no contest.

But what is undebatable is that Leliana is by far the most dynamic character of Origins, with Alistair second.

to you. and like every other topic you have made. Thats just your opinion though you treat as some sort of fact. I think Morrigan is the best character no just in dragon age but 1 of the best in my gaming history for deepness. I like Leliana alot as well, same for the best bud of alistair, just not as much. JUst like the majority love Varric from DA2. To me i dont care if he dies in a fire. Hes prolly the best dwarf companion Ive had, but i could care less about him.

Point is you like to argue every point thrown against you, flip up the board and change the goal posts, just cause people don't share your opnion of thinking Leliana is the best and or deserves to be the main protagonist for DA3.

Wrong, how deep and dynamic a character is are facts...its likabiltiy that is an opinion.

Leliana is my fave character (or one of them now thanks to Aveline and Varric, who may have surpassed her as my DA fave), however, there is a reason why I think she would be a great DAIII protagonist is because where the setting probably will be, that the story will involve the Chantry and the Seekers in a major way, the themes of religion and faith can be explored, how she is set up in DAII, and the depth and dynamic of the character, as well as being a servicable protagonist before. There is more reasons for her to be a protagonist than "I like her".

Would I say that Tali should be a protagonist in a major Mass Effect game even though she is my favorite Bioware character? No, because she would simply not be a very good protagonist, she isn't the right type of character to carry a game. She is better as a support character and a LI.

Wrong it is opnion. How you judge someone is entireley up to the person. it is by no means facts. you can argue one side, but another person can completely argue the other and both  have validation in their points.

Regardless if DA3 would be set in Orlais or follow the templar/mage war Leliana wouldnt be good for a protagonists in my eyes. Companion/NPC sure. But never main, primarily because it goes against all choice, worse so then Hawke, even though many people may like Leliana more than Hawke.

[Harid]

One dimensional Chantry Militant? Templars on steroids? Hyperbole much?

What the hell?

I think I've added a third mad mage supporter to the list, god damn.

[txgoldrush]

seraphymon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

People would be extremely unhappy with Leliana as a protagonist and rightfully so. Hawke is already restrictive enough.

And I disagree about Leliana being the deepest DA:O companion.

Its a two way street, the more customizable the character is the less of a personality he or she has. This leads to characters being divorced from the plot.

Than who is deeper? Disregarding her DLC, Alistair and maybe Morrigan are as deep as Leliana is (they are the main three charatcres anyway), but witht he DLC, its no contest.

But what is undebatable is that Leliana is by far the most dynamic character of Origins, with Alistair second.

to you. and like every other topic you have made. Thats just your opinion though you treat as some sort of fact. I think Morrigan is the best character no just in dragon age but 1 of the best in my gaming history for deepness. I like Leliana alot as well, same for the best bud of alistair, just not as much. JUst like the majority love Varric from DA2. To me i dont care if he dies in a fire. Hes prolly the best dwarf companion Ive had, but i could care less about him.

Point is you like to argue every point thrown against you, flip up the board and change the goal posts, just cause people don't share your opnion of thinking Leliana is the best and or deserves to be the main protagonist for DA3.

Wrong, how deep and dynamic a character is are facts...its likabiltiy that is an opinion.

Leliana is my fave character (or one of them now thanks to Aveline and Varric, who may have surpassed her as my DA fave), however, there is a reason why I think she would be a great DAIII protagonist is because where the setting probably will be, that the story will involve the Chantry and the Seekers in a major way, the themes of religion and faith can be explored, how she is set up in DAII, and the depth and dynamic of the character, as well as being a servicable protagonist before. There is more reasons for her to be a protagonist than "I like her".

Would I say that Tali should be a protagonist in a major Mass Effect game even though she is my favorite Bioware character? No, because she would simply not be a very good protagonist, she isn't the right type of character to carry a game. She is better as a support character and a LI.

Wrong it is opnion. How you judge someone is entireley up to the person. it is by no means facts. you can argue one side, but another person can completely argue the other and both  have validation in their points.

Regardless if DA3 would be set in Orlais or follow the templar/mage war Leliana wouldnt be good for a protagonists in my eyes. Companion/NPC sure. But never main, primarily because it goes against all choice, worse so then Hawke, even though many people may like Leliana more than Hawke.

no, how deep or shallow a character is, how one or three dimesnional a character is....if the character is a static or a dynamic character....are facts.

Whether you like the character or not...is an opinion.

And a game like The Witcher 2 and Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together proves that even set protagonists can allow for choices that can change the story. Its not the qunatity of choice that matters, but the quality.

[FieryDove]

seraphymon wrote...

Wrong it is opnion. How you judge someone is entireley up to the person. it is by no means facts. you can argue one side, but another person can completely argue the other and both  have validation in their points.

I agree. I thought Morrigan, Alistair and Zevran were much deeper characters. Some people may even think DOG is deeper, they like what they like.

I also think forcing people to play only as a female other than say tomb raider type game is business suicide.

[whykikyouwhy]

FieryDove wrote...


I agree. I thought Morrigan, Alistair and Zevran were much deeper characters. Some people may even think DOG is deeper, they like what they like.

I also think forcing people to play only as a female other than say tomb raider type game is business suicide.

With regard to your last sentence, I would have to disagree.

 - Portal
 - The Longest Journey
 - Mirror's Edge
 - the Metroid series
 - Beyond Good and Evil
 - Heavenly Sword

(just off the top of my head)

"Business suicide" may not be an accurate term. I'm sure a lot goes into the decision to limit the player's choices to one gender, be it female or male, but there are plenty of success stories for a solely-female-protagonist game. Bioware may simply not want to go down that road, and would rather keep the options fluid, but if they presented a game with only a female protagonist, I would wager it would be well received.

[Harid]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

FieryDove wrote...


I agree. I thought Morrigan, Alistair and Zevran were much deeper characters. Some people may even think DOG is deeper, they like what they like.

I also think forcing people to play only as a female other than say tomb raider type game is business suicide.

With regard to your last sentence, I would have to disagree.

 - Portal
 - The Longest Journey
 - Mirror's Edge
 - the Metroid series
 - Beyond Good and Evil
 - Heavenly Sword

(just off the top of my head)

"Business suicide" may not be an accurate term. I'm sure a lot goes into the decision to limit the player's choices to one gender, be it female or male, but there are plenty of success stories for a solely-female-protagonist game. Bioware may simply not want to go down that road, and would rather keep the options fluid, but if they presented a game with only a female protagonist, I would wager it would be well received.

Uh. . .these games didn't sell well, well, except for Portal, and the Metroid series.  I am pretty much sure the guy was talking about in term of sales.

[FieryDove]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

With regard to your last sentence, I would have to disagree.

 - Portal
 - The Longest Journey
 - Mirror's Edge
 - the Metroid series
 - Beyond Good and Evil
 - Heavenly Sword

(just off the top of my head)

"Business suicide" may not be an accurate term. I'm sure a lot goes into the decision to limit the player's choices to one gender, be it female or male, but there are plenty of success stories for a solely-female-protagonist game. Bioware may simply not want to go down that road, and would rather keep the options fluid, but if they presented a game with only a female protagonist, I would wager it would be well received.

Maybe not since DA seems to like 180's, if the next DA game is a female human only I'm sure there will be very few complaints. /snark

Sorry. What I am talking about was for DA3 which was the thread title, I don't think people will give up even more customization before moving...somewhere else. I'm just guessing of course, who knows?

[Alicia Keys]

This sounds like a great idea. I think playing as Lelianna would be awesome!!!!

[txgoldrush]

FieryDove wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

Wrong it is opnion. How you judge someone is entireley up to the person. it is by no means facts. you can argue one side, but another person can completely argue the other and both  have validation in their points.

I agree. I thought Morrigan, Alistair and Zevran were much deeper characters. Some people may even think DOG is deeper, they like what they like.

I also think forcing people to play only as a female other than say tomb raider type game is business suicide.

They are not deeper characters. Morrigan is hardly deep. What is her backstory, mostly hanging around Flemeth playing games with humans in the wild. Alistair is on par with Leliana in sheer depth until Leliana's Song came out. Zervan, deep but not Leliana's level. Depth alone however is not an indicator of likabiltiy. In fact, its not her depth that is the reason why I like her in the first place.

Many games did well even though it had a sole female protagonist. Its far from business suicide.

[txgoldrush]

Harid wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

FieryDove wrote...


I agree. I thought Morrigan, Alistair and Zevran were much deeper characters. Some people may even think DOG is deeper, they like what they like.

I also think forcing people to play only as a female other than say tomb raider type game is business suicide.

With regard to your last sentence, I would have to disagree.

 - Portal
 - The Longest Journey
 - Mirror's Edge
 - the Metroid series
 - Beyond Good and Evil
 - Heavenly Sword

(just off the top of my head)

"Business suicide" may not be an accurate term. I'm sure a lot goes into the decision to limit the player's choices to one gender, be it female or male, but there are plenty of success stories for a solely-female-protagonist game. Bioware may simply not want to go down that road, and would rather keep the options fluid, but if they presented a game with only a female protagonist, I would wager it would be well received.

Uh. . .these games didn't sell well, well, except for Portal, and the Metroid series.  I am pretty much sure the guy was talking about in term of sales.

They didn't sell well not because they had a female protagonist but because they were A) Under the radar Unique in style and gameplay, not a mainstream game or C) Flawed.

[Sutekh]

txgoldrush wrote...
no, how deep or shallow a character is, how one or three dimesnional a character is....if the character is a static or a dynamic character....are facts.

Err... No. Really not. "Leliana has red hair" is a fact. It's something that is not subject to interpretation. "Leliana is a deep character" comes from your personal analysis, which itself comes from your culture, tastes, education etc... therefore it's an opinion.

Ftr, I find Zevran and Morrigan much deeper than Leliana.

And a game like The Witcher 2 and Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together proves that even set protagonists can allow for choices that can change the story. Its not the qunatity of choice that matters, but the quality.

I'd agree with that to an extent. The problem isn't that she's a set character, it's that, in my opinion (:innocent:), she doesn't have enough substance to make a decent playable character, and she's too defined in her beliefs, personality, sexuality etc... Even Geralt has the memory loss to allow us to make him ours a little (even if it doesn't always work, but that's another story).

[FieryDove]

txgoldrush wrote...

They are not deeper characters. Morrigan is hardly deep. What is her backstory, mostly hanging around Flemeth playing games with humans in the wild. Alistair is on par with Leliana in sheer depth until Leliana's Song came out. Zervan, deep but not Leliana's level. Depth alone however is not an indicator of likabiltiy. In fact, its not her depth that is the reason why I like her in the first place.

I'm not going to argue with your opinion.

txgoldrush wrote...

Many games did well even though it had a sole female protagonist. Its far from business suicide.

So DAO, DAA and DA2 only allowed a female for character creation and did well? People expect too much at times this is true, but since Bio games have had this option male/female since...forever its sort of a given.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I kind of want to kill Leliana and Cassandra in DA3.

[txgoldrush]

Sutekh wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
no, how deep or shallow a character is, how one or three dimesnional a character is....if the character is a static or a dynamic character....are facts.

Err... No. Really not. "Leliana has red hair" is a fact. It's something that is not subject to interpretation. "Leliana is a deep character" comes from your personal analysis, which itself comes from your culture, tastes, education etc... therefore it's an opinion.

Ftr, I find Zevran and Morrigan much deeper than Leliana.

And a game like The Witcher 2 and Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together proves that even set protagonists can allow for choices that can change the story. Its not the qunatity of choice that matters, but the quality.

I'd agree with that to an extent. The problem isn't that she's a set character, it's that, in my opinion (:innocent:), she doesn't have enough substance to make a decent playable character, and she's too defined in her beliefs, personality, sexuality etc... Even Geralt has the memory loss to allow us to make him ours a little (even if it doesn't always work, but that's another story).

No, depth, how much information a creator gives to something, is a fact. How well the depth is used...that is an opinion.

Leliana in Origins is defined in her beliefs, but remember, its been seven years since the Origins version of Leliana. This actually allows for some wiggle room in developing and evolving her views. How close and dedicated she to strict church doctrine and the Divine's orders is not known....would she follow questionable orders from loyalty to her superior that took her in (and for the greater good) or does she not follow them thinking that the actions ordered conflicts with her beliefs. That can be an excellent choice and consquence moment for Leliana. That is not defined in Leliana seven years later, how much does she seperate faith from religion?

Modifié par txgoldrush, 14 juillet 2011 - 03:17 .

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

txgoldrush wrote...

Most likely its set an Orlais and involve the Chantry, Leliana could easily be the protagonist as she is the head seeker and from Orlais.

Seriously?  If I'd known that DA2 had quidditch in it, I would have pre-ordered!

[txgoldrush]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Most likely its set an Orlais and involve the Chantry, Leliana could easily be the protagonist as she is the head seeker and from Orlais.

Seriously?  If I'd known that DA2 had quidditch in it, I would have pre-ordered!

The Grand Cleric called Sister Nightgale.."the left hand of the Divine"

[Malanek]

Personally I found Leliana really annoying. I'll grant it could work from a plot point of view (if you continue to ignore the fact she could be dead) but her personality seems far too predefined and quirky to me. I think too many people (at least around 15%) didn't like her and felt quite strongly about it. Plus she obviously has a predefined gender.

[jlb524]

Leliana as protagonist in DA3 with Cassandra as her canon LI...make it happen, BioWare!