149 réponses à ce sujet

[seraphymon]

Just cause you find her deeper OP doesnt mean anything. Thats your opinion. her DLC to me didnt add anything to her character that wasnt already known. The only difference was we got to see it or experience it. JUst like with Morrigan her tales of her life of lonliness adds character depth for me, and her emotions and reactions to the events made me understand her character and grow to like that character more, because it appeals to me more. But im not gonna act as if that is the best universally because others dont feel the same, and have their reasons for so.

[txgoldrush]

Malanek999 wrote...

Personally I found Leliana really annoying. I'll grant it could work from a plot point of view (if you continue to ignore the fact she could be dead) but her personality seems far too predefined and quirky to me. I think too many people (at least around 15%) didn't like her and felt quite strongly about it. Plus she obviously has a predefined gender.

JC Denton and The Nameless One had a predefined gender...and their games are classics.

In Origins, yes her personality extremely predefined, but consider the seven year gap, her personaly could evolve at that time. Perhaps she can even be less annoying to you.

Over sevenm years Anders DEFINTELY changed.

And you cannot satisify everyone, and game designers should not try to all the time. If 15% jump ship, its fine by me. Sometimes people jumping ship can show who the true fans really are, those that stick around and at least try what the artist wanted to do.

Look what happed with The Wind Waker, people whined and cried about Link's new look and after release, everyone shut up about it. Thankfully Nintendo did not try to satisfy everyone and stuck to their guns.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

jlb524 wrote...

Leliana as protagonist in DA3 with Cassandra as her canon LI...make it happen, BioWare!

Neeeeeh! My Warden is jelly.
That is unless Cassy doesn't mind sharing... 

[jlb524]

DrunkDeadman wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Leliana as protagonist in DA3 with Cassandra as her canon LI...make it happen, BioWare!

Neeeeeh! My Warden is jelly.
That is unless Cassy doesn't mind sharing... 

My Warden and Leli broke up so...don't know what will happen

[txgoldrush]

seraphymon wrote...

Just cause you find her deeper OP doesnt mean anything. Thats your opinion. her DLC to me didnt add anything to her character that wasnt already known. The only difference was we got to see it or experience it. JUst like with Morrigan her tales of her life of lonliness adds character depth for me, and her emotions and reactions to the events made me understand her character and grow to like that character more, because it appeals to me more. But im not gonna act as if that is the best universally because others dont feel the same, and have their reasons for so.

However, Leliana's Song DID add depth to her story. It was not known before DLC release WHO took Leliana in. Now as of DAII, she is the Divine of the Chantry. Thats added depth right there and really important come DAII. Sketch and Tug, never mentioned by Leliana. Its not mentioned in her story how she actually turned from a complete thug to a noble person. LS shows this, by showing how her escape, helped prisoners tortured in the Arl's estate escape as well.

[CrimsonZephyr]

What if the player doesn't like the Chantry, though? What if the player wants to support the mages? Or the Templars? Leliana isn't any of those. It limits the story by having the player character have a pre-defined personality which, to be honest, has not changed except that they upped her Chantry devotion.

[Malanek]

txgoldrush wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Personally I found Leliana really annoying. I'll grant it could work from a plot point of view (if you continue to ignore the fact she could be dead) but her personality seems far too predefined and quirky to me. I think too many people (at least around 15%) didn't like her and felt quite strongly about it. Plus she obviously has a predefined gender.

JC Denton and The Nameless One had a predefined gender...and their games are classics.

In Origins, yes her personality extremely predefined, but consider the seven year gap, her personaly could evolve at that time. Perhaps she can even be less annoying to you.

Over sevenm years Anders DEFINTELY changed.

And you cannot satisify everyone, and game designers should not try to all the time. If 15% jump ship, its fine by me. Sometimes people jumping ship can show who the true fans really are, those that stick around and at least try what the artist wanted to do.

Look what happed with The Wind Waker, people whined and cried about Link's new look and after release, everyone shut up about it. Thankfully Nintendo did not try to satisfy everyone and stuck to their guns.

Just to switch this around a bit, are there any charcters in DA1 or 2 that you didn't like? Would you be keen to play as them? How about Oghren?

[txgoldrush]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

What if the player doesn't like the Chantry, though? What if the player wants to support the mages? Or the Templars? Leliana isn't any of those. It limits the story by having the player character have a pre-defined personality which, to be honest, has not changed except that they upped her Chantry devotion.

Then their could be an option for Lily break from the Chantry...once again, how devoted she is to the Chantry is not shown in DAII.

And once again, consider the seven year time frame.

[txgoldrush]

Malanek999 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Personally I found Leliana really annoying. I'll grant it could work from a plot point of view (if you continue to ignore the fact she could be dead) but her personality seems far too predefined and quirky to me. I think too many people (at least around 15%) didn't like her and felt quite strongly about it. Plus she obviously has a predefined gender.

JC Denton and The Nameless One had a predefined gender...and their games are classics.

In Origins, yes her personality extremely predefined, but consider the seven year gap, her personaly could evolve at that time. Perhaps she can even be less annoying to you.

Over sevenm years Anders DEFINTELY changed.

And you cannot satisify everyone, and game designers should not try to all the time. If 15% jump ship, its fine by me. Sometimes people jumping ship can show who the true fans really are, those that stick around and at least try what the artist wanted to do.

Look what happed with The Wind Waker, people whined and cried about Link's new look and after release, everyone shut up about it. Thankfully Nintendo did not try to satisfy everyone and stuck to their guns.

Just to switch this around a bit, are there any charcters in DA1 or 2 that you didn't like? Would you be keen to play as them? How about Oghren?

Oghren I definitely didnt like BUT it depended on what they did with him if they did make him playable. Its not making judgements before seeing results.

Hell, I did not like Pigsy in Enslaved very much, but downloaded his DLC anyway. Guess what? I actually like d him much more afterwards.

[CrimsonZephyr]

txgoldrush wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

What if the player doesn't like the Chantry, though? What if the player wants to support the mages? Or the Templars? Leliana isn't any of those. It limits the story by having the player character have a pre-defined personality which, to be honest, has not changed except that they upped her Chantry devotion.

Then their could be an option for Lily break from the Chantry...once again, how devoted she is to the Chantry is not shown in DAII.

And once again, consider the seven year time frame.

She is a member of a frighteningly loyal secret police force answerable to the Divine herself and no one else. That indicates unwavering loyalty to the Chantry cause, and therefore would make any deviation from it out of character. And this isn't her DA:O character. This is her DA2 character at the epilogue, which takes place in the "present day." Ergo, this is what her character is, not what it was.

[txgoldrush]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

What if the player doesn't like the Chantry, though? What if the player wants to support the mages? Or the Templars? Leliana isn't any of those. It limits the story by having the player character have a pre-defined personality which, to be honest, has not changed except that they upped her Chantry devotion.

Then their could be an option for Lily break from the Chantry...once again, how devoted she is to the Chantry is not shown in DAII.

And once again, consider the seven year time frame.

She is a member of a frighteningly loyal secret police force answerable to the Divine herself and no one else. That indicates unwavering loyalty to the Chantry cause, and therefore would make any deviation from it out of character. And this isn't her DA:O character. This is her DA2 character at the epilogue, which takes place in the "present day." Ergo, this is what her character is, not what it was.

But would that be her character in the future? What if the Chantry ordered something extremely questionable? Her DAII actions...warning the Grand Cleric and trying to find the truth about the Champion were not questionable or morally grey.

What if the Divine gets assassinated and a ver questionable new Divine gets elected, then turns the Chantry in a darker direction? Her break with the Chantry or her seeking to reform it would not be out of the question. Hell, she could even attempt to root out corruption higher up, fufilling her duty as a seeker.

[MeAndMySandvich]

txgoldrush wrote...

They are not deeper characters. Morrigan is hardly deep. What is her backstory, mostly hanging around Flemeth playing games with humans in the wild. Alistair is on par with Leliana in sheer depth until Leliana's Song came out. Zervan, deep but not Leliana's level.

Backstory =/= depth. Characters are more effectively defined by what the game shows us they do in the story as opposed to what the writers tell us they did in the past.

[txgoldrush]

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

They are not deeper characters. Morrigan is hardly deep. What is her backstory, mostly hanging around Flemeth playing games with humans in the wild. Alistair is on par with Leliana in sheer depth until Leliana's Song came out. Zervan, deep but not Leliana's level.

Backstory =/= depth. Characters are more effectively defined by what the game shows us they do in the story as opposed to what the writers tell us they did in the past.

By that definition, almost everyone in DAO is shallow...because only Allistair has a major role in the plot (and Morrigan a more minor one).

But since they are mostly talking codex entries, you have to judge by mostly backstory.

[devSin]

It would be totally awesome if the entire game was some long-ass cutscene where she was walking around singing that stupid song among a montage of stupid people doing stupid things, with that stupid expression on her face.

I would chortle. I've never used that word to describe anything I've ever done in my life, but having to sit through that for a whole game... yes, I would chortle.

She has her own DLC? Ok. SO lets make Shale protagonist in Da3.

Shale is the most awesome creature in the entire game world. Shale protagonist? I could get behind that.

Squish.

Modifié par devSin, 14 juillet 2011 - 04:29 .

[MeAndMySandvich]

txgoldrush wrote...

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

They are not deeper characters. Morrigan is hardly deep. What is her backstory, mostly hanging around Flemeth playing games with humans in the wild. Alistair is on par with Leliana in sheer depth until Leliana's Song came out. Zervan, deep but not Leliana's level.

Backstory =/= depth. Characters are more effectively defined by what the game shows us they do in the story as opposed to what the writers tell us they did in the past.

By that definition, almost everyone in DAO is shallow...because only Allistair has a major role in the plot (and Morrigan a more minor one).

But since they are mostly talking codex entries, you have to judge by mostly backstory.

A) A character doesn't have to influence the plot to do something in the context of the story. Sten, for instance, has absolutely no impact on anything but succeeds in defining himself quite effectively through his actions. Now, I don't think Sten is particularly deep as a character, but insofar as he has character depth it's much more effectively conveyed through his debates with the Warden, his "crisis point," and so on than it is by exposition.
Depth isn't really a quality 90% of Bioware characters have. You almost never see sides to them you couldn't guess within the first 5 minutes of meeting them. Leliana is no exception.

[txgoldrush]

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

They are not deeper characters. Morrigan is hardly deep. What is her backstory, mostly hanging around Flemeth playing games with humans in the wild. Alistair is on par with Leliana in sheer depth until Leliana's Song came out. Zervan, deep but not Leliana's level.

Backstory =/= depth. Characters are more effectively defined by what the game shows us they do in the story as opposed to what the writers tell us they did in the past.

By that definition, almost everyone in DAO is shallow...because only Allistair has a major role in the plot (and Morrigan a more minor one).

But since they are mostly talking codex entries, you have to judge by mostly backstory.

A) A character doesn't have to influence the plot to do something in the context of the story. Sten, for instance, has absolutely no impact on anything but succeeds in defining himself quite effectively through his actions. Now, I don't think Sten is particularly deep as a character, but insofar as he has character depth it's much more effectively conveyed through his debates with the Warden, his "crisis point," and so on than it is by exposition.
Depth isn't really a quality 90% of Bioware characters have. You almost never see sides to them you couldn't guess within the first 5 minutes of meeting them. Leliana is no exception.

Sten is just like any other character in DAO, you can have debates with them and is something all characters except for the dog has. And think about it....in the context of the story the Chantry is highly important, much more the Qunari or the Crows, only the Wardens are more important (and in DAII, they are about equal now). That makes an Alistair and a Leliana more pivotal in the context of the story than a Sten or a Zevran.

Just because they don't show hidden sides doesn't mean they can't be deep. And Leliana has suprised me with some of her views, she is no simple religious zealot but a moderate with complex views.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 14 juillet 2011 - 04:48 .

[xkg]

I really don't get it OP what are you trying to do here.
Threads like this are usualy "I want it" "I don't want it".

You wont convice anyone to change his opinion no matter what you say. If someone don't want here then someone don't want her. Simple as that.
At least thats how it is in my case.

[ImoenBaby]

txgoldrush wrote...

Seriously....it would actually work.

Heh.

Well,  a lot of people disagree with you here, but I rather liked your idea. I loved Lel's DLC because it was novel at the time - the whole voiced protaganist thing was a welcome change from Origins, and I liked seeing some of her past play before me. We were also sneakily being introduced to the Seeker we all know and love from DA2 (well, I like her anyway ).

She easily smokes the rest of DAO's cast in depth and range of character.

Haha no.  Alistair takes that prize, although I wouldn't use the same hyperbole to say so.  I think the subtle foreshadowing in his "gift" dialogue (when he relates why he shattered his mother's amulet) is one of Origin's masterstrokes.

However, I will say that Lel is a lot more intruiguing at this point...but that's because we don't know as much about her, and it turns out that sneaky little minx really was hiding something from the Warden after all...

But making Leliana the protagonist for DAIII would be a downright ballsy move and a formula breaking one, and it would actually really work, considering her role in the Chantry and the setting of Orlais.

I like ballsy moves. But I'm one of those people who will always have a place for Bioware on their hard drive , so the devs probably won't bank their futures on people like me.

She was 70% of the humanity of Origins

Did you take all of Lel's...particularly heartfelt moments, and divide them by the game's total such moments? 

[phoenixgoddess27]

ImoenBaby wrote...

However, I will say that Lel is a lot more intruiguing at this point...but that's because we don't know as much about her, and it turns out that sneaky little minx really was hiding something from the Warden after all...

Indeed. Had I known Leliana was immortal I would have suggested she go through the joining ritual and slay the archdemon.

Modifié par phoenixgoddess27, 14 juillet 2011 - 07:18 .

[Zjarcal]

Schratty wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

If that piece of Orlesian trailer trash shows up in any major capacity, I only hope we get a chance to kill her. Again.

And this is why I <3 you, Addai 

+100 rivalry with you, Schratty.

No rivalry gained with Addai since the rivalry bar was maxed a long time ago. 

And sorry, but Leliana was able to laugh at your attempt to kill her and show up in DA2 doing a trollface. Problem? 

[ImoenBaby]

Yeah, I don't get all the Leliana hate. I'm all for Lel's trollface.

[Nightdragon8]

honestly no... for Leliana as main character for DA3. nothing against her just don't really wish to be forced to play a her (didn't really like the DLC for orgins so much)

[TheBlackBaron]

Filament wrote...

I think I'd rather it be about Morrigan, if we are to have a game starring one of our former companions as the protagonist. Give an excuse to really explore the Shapeshifter mechanic in depth... and of course dive into one of the biggest plot lines in the series.

Yep. As far as exisiting plot hooks go, Morrigan has far and away the most significant, and if we had to pick one DA:O companion to base an entire game on it would be her. But the amount of rage I and other would have at her appearing with (most likely) no Warden in sight would cancel all of that out. 

[Tommy6860]

I agree with the scope and range of Leliana's character, she was pretty deep, but so was Zevran and Morrigan. While I think it is a nice idea, I don't want a protagonist made for me, I want the protagonist I make.