206 réponses à ce sujet

[Sidney]

tmp7704 wrote...
Elves: anorectic humans with donkey ears
Dwarves: shorter humans and beards
Qunari: taller humans with horns

Elves and Quanri look distinct from humans. Put 'em in a lineup and you'll never have a question rather they are human or one of those two. Thats'a big change from DAO where you'd be stuck if the elf had long hair. Dwarves didn't get a very good redesign honestly and they do look like dumpy humans. I'd love to see dwarves "adapt" more to their subterrainian home by being pale, bigger eyes, light sensitive or something as part of a design change for DA3.

[Sutekh]

Endurium wrote...

The DA2 elves look ugly and resemble the UFO aliens we sometimes see pictures of in media. While I'm all for elves looking different from humans, I prefer D&D's lore on the matter - supernaturally graceful and hauntingly beautiful - neither of which describes a DA elf (DAO or DA2).

Oh please, gods, no. The eerily beautiful Galadriel stereotype is getting really old. Whatever the settings, we get some unattainable standard of beauty, which will fail inexorably because 1. beauty is very subjective and 2. engines aren't capable of rendering it.

DAO elves were fine. Ears were too invisible, but there are mods for that on PC. Apart from that, they were different enough from humans to be distinguishable. They were mundane and relatable, not some sort of demi-gods.

Some DA2 elves faces are beautiful, some quite acceptable. And some downright ugly, but there's a lot of ugly humans too. The body and especially posture, on the other hand, are, IMO, terrible. 

[MeAndMySandvich]

Sidney wrote...

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

Once again, it's not that the DA2 elves are poorly designed because they're nonhuman, they're poorly designed because they weren't what the designers were going for. Look at the concept art - it's pretty clear that DA2 for whatever reason failed to execute that concept.

Really?

First, is concept art a ideal that is always met or even meant to be met? Concept art is just that, a concept so I'm not sure I'd say they did or didn't hit that as a point of good or bad. I don't think the Dwarven physique is quite as exaggered as in the concept art, are the dwarves a failure? In the end if they'd made elves all Tolkein-esque I doubt there'd be a thread bemoaning how they missed the concept art.

Second, they did. The two biggest changes were the more promient brow/bridge line and that is in the art (albeit clearer on the fame) and actual prominent ears as oppoised to the hidden under the ears DAO format. I think the thing that the concept art doesn't show that is in the game is the larger eye size.

Well, in terms of dwarves they clearly failed to meet the concept by failing to include female dwarves. And you don't seriously believe they planned to give elves in DA2 giraffe neck, do you? The concept art shows that they had a clear idea of what they wanted elves to look like, and the fact that elves in-game look like a poorly-executed attempt at that concept leads us to the obvious conclusion that they failed to make the elves the way they wanted them to look.

[DRTJR]

I liked the redesign and thought it help separate Dragon age from every other tolken knockoff.

[JaegerBane]

Sidney wrote...

culletron1 wrote...

The elves in DA:O were nothing special.... but they weren't offensive to look at.

That being the problem - they were notjhinhg but humans with pointy ears.  God, it is like all you people are wedded to etherally beautiful elves. Get over it.

I'm having trouble understanding what the problem is, in that case. I don't honestly understand why it's such an issue to have elves that look similar to humans.... I mean, this is a species that when mated with a human produces another full-blooded human, so why have certain people managed to get this obsession that they have to look vastly different?

Modifié par JaegerBane, 15 juillet 2011 - 09:22 .

[Sidney]

JaegerBane wrote...

I'm having trouble understanding what the problem is, in that case. I don't honestly understand why it's such an issue to have elves that look similar to humans.... I mean, this is a species that when mated with a human produces another full-blooded human, so why have certain people managed to get this obsession that they have to look vastly different?

I don't think they are "vastly" different now. Just distinct. You go take a look at a gallery of hominid reconstructions you'll notice that Neanderthalis, heidelbergensis, rudolfensis, rhodesiensis all look similar but not the same and not just shorter or taller types of the same. You've got different facial structure, musculator, posture and so on.

[JaegerBane]

Sidney wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

I'm having trouble understanding what the problem is, in that case. I don't honestly understand why it's such an issue to have elves that look similar to humans.... I mean, this is a species that when mated with a human produces another full-blooded human, so why have certain people managed to get this obsession that they have to look vastly different?

I don't think they are "vastly" different now. Just distinct. You go take a look at a gallery of hominid reconstructions you'll notice that Neanderthalis, heidelbergensis, rudolfensis, rhodesiensis all look similar but not the same and not just shorter or taller types of the same. You've got different facial structure, musculator, posture and so on.

They already did look distinct back in DA:O. You could tell apart an elf from a human, mainly on the basis of build.

[alex90c]

JaegerBane wrote...

Sidney wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

I'm having trouble understanding what the problem is, in that case. I don't honestly understand why it's such an issue to have elves that look similar to humans.... I mean, this is a species that when mated with a human produces another full-blooded human, so why have certain people managed to get this obsession that they have to look vastly different?

I don't think they are "vastly" different now. Just distinct. You go take a look at a gallery of hominid reconstructions you'll notice that Neanderthalis, heidelbergensis, rudolfensis, rhodesiensis all look similar but not the same and not just shorter or taller types of the same. You've got different facial structure, musculator, posture and so on.

They already did look distinct back in DA:O. You could tell apart an elf from a human, mainly on the basis of build.

Plus their eyes and general facial structure had enough differences for it to be obvious when you were talking to an elf.

I always thought their similarity to humans in appearance as well kind of made for an interesting parallel in regards to the pettiness of real life racism too; black people can be discriminated on simply based on their colour, and then in the Dragon Age universe you get these elves who look pretty much identical to humans but discriminated based on extremely petty differences like their ears.

[Sidney]

JaegerBane wrote...

They already did look distinct back in DA:O. You could tell apart an elf from a human, mainly on the basis of build.

No, an elf was distinct only to the extent that there were no teenage humans running about on screen because that is all they looked like. Again, while all human species look similar in basic structure and you can tell they're all from the same tree they don't just look like taller or shorter versions of each other. They have distcinctive features that makr them as different. 10,000 years from DAO if you dug up a fossilized elf they'd no doubt just label it a juvenile human because there's nothing other than being slightly more gracile that makrs them as different.

[JaegerBane]

alex90c wrote...
Plus their eyes and general facial structure had enough differences for it to be obvious when you were talking to an elf.

I always thought their similarity to humans in appearance as well kind of made for an interesting parallel in regards to the pettiness of real life racism too; black people can be discriminated on simply based on their colour, and then in the Dragon Age universe you get these elves who look pretty much identical to humans but discriminated based on extremely petty differences like their ears.

I felt the same. The fact that the derogatory term 'knife-ears' focuses on their ears implies that it's the most different thing about them, and, as you say, would parallel real-life racism and prejudice in the way little differences are emphasised. All this nonsense about them having to look 'like a different species' doesn't seem to have any other basis other than the fact that some people seem to want them to look both attractive and inhuman but not like Tolkein-esque Galadriel-type.

Which, frankly, sounds like they want a cup of cold boiling water served upside down. There doesn't seem to be a realisation that a lot of the stuff being suggested is mutually exclusive and doesn't work with the established lore.

[JaegerBane]

Sidney wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

They already did look distinct back in DA:O. You could tell apart an elf from a human, mainly on the basis of build.

No, an elf was distinct only to the extent that there were no teenage humans running about on screen because that is all they looked like.

But they were nonetheless distinct to a comparable human of similar age. This is the point - they can't be too different as the simple fact that there are no such things as half-elves imply they're so similar that telling them apart is something that isn't clear from a mile away. As I said, I don't understand why they need to be distinct to the extent that they'd have a radically different bone structure. They were clearly intended to be similar.

[FieryDove]

JaegerBane wrote...

Which, frankly, sounds like they want a cup of cold boiling water served upside down. There doesn't seem to be a realisation that a lot of the stuff being suggested is mutually exclusive and doesn't work with the established lore.

A voice of reason.

[DRTJR]

I liked the Elves in DA2, and I found the average elven woman more atractive than the average human woman. In DA:O the people where slightly shorter humans with elf ears.

[tmp7704]

Sidney wrote...

Elves and Quanri look distinct from humans. Put 'em in a lineup and you'll never have a question rather they are human or one of those two.

We had a comparison of one of the DA2 elves with Morrigan in another thread. Simply put, the ears were the only thing that was distinctly something you wouldn't find on the human (the nose bridge thing can be practically unnoticeable when viewed head on)

Or to put it differently, the differences are cosmetic on the level of Star Trek "aliens". I.e. no different from putting plastic ears on a human.

Regarding the qunari, ironically enough the new darkspawn boss from the upcoming DA2 DLC has qunari head. And you know, no one really noticed because he's missing the horns. That's how distinct they are now.

Modifié par tmp7704, 15 juillet 2011 - 10:13 .

[Addai]

DRTJR wrote...

I liked the redesign and thought it help separate Dragon age from every other tolken knockoff.

The problem is that they're a Tolkien knockoff in one sense- humans are supposed to find them desirable- while many of those commenting here perceive them as ugly in Origins and even uglier in DA2.  So there's a bit of disconnect there.

I don't see why being a "Tolkien knockoff" is a bad thing, anyway.  Lots of video game elves are different degrees of freaky deak, and not Tolkienesque at all.  Unless you know a lot of fantasy elves who are tall, dark haired, with grey eyes.  In fact, when I do a Google image search of "video game elf," I see a lot of figures that look more like DA2 elves- the really stuck-out ears, big eyes etc.  So it looks to me like they made them more conventional anime style rather than anything unique.  And, bleccch, I just hate that look.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 juillet 2011 - 10:19 .

[Redcoat]

Addai67 wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

I liked the redesign and thought it help separate Dragon age from every other tolken knockoff.

The problem is that they're a Tolkien knockoff in one sense- humans are supposed to find them desirable- while many of those commenting here perceive them as ugly in Origins and even uglier in DA2.  So there's a bit of disconnect there.

I don't see why being a "Tolkien knockoff" is a bad thing, anyway.  Lots of video game elves are different degrees of freaky deak, and not Tolkienesque at all.  Unless you know a lot of fantasy elves who are tall, dark haired, with grey eyes.  In fact, when I do a Google image search of "video game elf," I see a lot of figures that look more like DA2 elves- the really stuck-out ears, big eyes etc.  So it looks to me like they made them more conventional anime style rather than anything unique.  And, bleccch, I just hate that look.

Funny you should mention Japanese cartoons, because I felt that the DA2 elves looked like someone taking a cartoon character and attempting to make him look "realistic"... Sort of like this picture.

[billy the squid]

Addai67 wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

I liked the redesign and thought it help separate Dragon age from every other tolken knockoff.

The problem is that they're a Tolkien knockoff in one sense- humans are supposed to find them desirable- while many of those commenting here perceive them as ugly in Origins and even uglier in DA2.  So there's a bit of disconnect there.

I don't see why being a "Tolkien knockoff" is a bad thing, anyway.  Lots of video game elves are different degrees of freaky deak, and not Tolkienesque at all.  Unless you know a lot of fantasy elves who are tall, dark haired, with grey eyes.  In fact, when I do a Google image search of "video game elf," I see a lot of figures that look more like DA2 elves- the really stuck-out ears, big eyes etc.  So it looks to me like they made them more conventional anime style rather than anything unique.  And, bleccch, I just hate that look.

I agree, Tolkienesque similarities are not a bad thing, but DRTJR apart from pointy ears please explain how DAO's elves are similar to those of LOTR universe? If this is a defining trait then DA2 elves are still knock offs, but simply appear as though they have been beaten with a shovel.

[Merilsell]

dheer wrote...

Chiramu wrote...
DA2 style elves look awesome, plus they are now CANON!

You know what would be awesome? If the DA2 style elves were CANNON'D. Preferably into a brick wall.

/thread.

[Serpieri Nei]

Merilsell wrote...

dheer wrote...

Chiramu wrote...
DA2 style elves look awesome, plus they are now CANON!

You know what would be awesome? If the DA2 style elves were CANNON'D. Preferably into a brick wall.

/thread.

That would explain the faces 

[Jademoon121]

JaegerBane wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...
True. If a human was going to find someone attractive, they'd have to at least have some humanoid features right? The key thing though is that elves are not human and it has to show somehow. Glowing eyes, thin faces, slight bodies. If we just got pointed ears, we'd be back in DAO territory again.

Why is that a bad thing? There's enough there to make it clear they're not human. We already know that genetically they've gotta be pretty damn similar since the product of a human and elf mating is always fully human, so why must they be so different?

Like I said above, Bioware was sloppy with the elves. A lot of them look ugly, but not all of them. Incedentaly, the good looking ones actually looked more human than the ugly ones(sans Fenris' hulking gait and Merrill's Giraffe neck).

Indeed. If you look at Fenris and Merrill, who are pretty much agreed as being the best examples of both genders in terms of attractiveness, their hairstyles and features are more orientated towards human then the ugly-looking elves. Their eyes are larger, their ears are pointed and their nose bridges are still prominent, but they're not so far to the extreme where their foreheads protude or their ears come out at right angles, as seen in freaks like Huon or his wife.

The bottom line is that the more like humans elves look, the more attractive they are percieved. Maybe Bioware were sloppy with the designs, but that doesn't change the fact that exaggerated heads and organs coming out at weird angles looks bizarre. Making human-looking elves clearly makes them fit their lore.

I can concede with this. We all want elves to be lookers and exotic, but not aliens from another planet.

[Jademoon121]

tmp7704 wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

In old tales and fantasy, elves are otherwordly creatures of magic and nature that appear beautiful to humans, kind of like cranes or deer but in a relatable fashion. They're not supposed to be pretty humans.

Problem with this line of reasoning is perhaps, humans are also supposed to feel sexual attraction to the elves (otherwise explaining these half-elves and elves working in brothels gets really hard) and that particular kind of attraction requires close enough similarity to one's own species to actually trigger.

The few sheep lovers who are out there aside, granted.

Perhaps not my best analogy. Elves are basically angels in paganism, and like angels, they may look human, but something about them is very alien. They're otherworldly, yet beautiful people that live close to the gods, and humans are often enraptured by their unearthly grace. Such stories can be found in old tales or even old translations of the Hebrew Bible. My point, elves be they spirits or other species, are beautiful, but in an exotic sort.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 16 juillet 2011 - 12:49 .

[Ahriman]

tmp7704 wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

In old tales and fantasy, elves are otherwordly creatures of magic and nature that appear beautiful to humans, kind of like cranes or deer but in a relatable fashion. They're not supposed to be pretty humans.

Problem with this line of reasoning is perhaps, humans are also supposed to feel sexual attraction to the elves (otherwise explaining these half-elves and elves working in brothels gets really hard) and that particular kind of attraction requires close enough similarity to one's own species to actually trigger.

The few sheep lovers who are out there aside, granted.

I've heard descent theory about that. There is a natural mechanism of evolution which controls perception of other species. People find attractive [I'm not talking about sexual attraction of course] a lot of animals which look very different from humans. It comes from same sources as human appeal: symmetry, wellness and all that stuff. But there might be a case when some species have human and none-human features in same time and our brain just cannot find them attractive. I bet most of you wouldn't find a neanderthal beautiful.
So when one species of animal becomes two, it prevents them to become one again. So what I'm talking about, Bioware designers managed to get exactly this case. Elves don't look human enough to be attractive by human standarts and look enough alien to be attractive by 'general' standarts.

BTW I don't think that Fenris and Merill are beautiful or even nice. *runs*

[ScotGaymer]

Some people are saying in this thread that there were nice looking elves in the game I ask, where?

Aside from Fenris and Merril where the heck r they? And even Fenris and Merril arent all that attractive.
They all look like they have Downs Syndrome to me.

[alex90c]

Funny thing is, the nicer looking elves are the ones who look more human than the typical elf appearance.

[Chari]

Wow... to be honest I've never looked at the concept art this thoroughly. Now time to nitpick about the concept art:

-They should have made the Qunari's skin darker like in the concept art
-Just realized this..what happened to the dwarf females?
-Talking about females...Umm what happened to the qunari females?
-Finally the elven concept art actually looks respectable, they should have kept this design instead of that of a donkeys behind...just saying.

About Qunari... WHAY they GREY???? They're bronze-skinned!