I've been skilling up Parry on my Paladin, but I'm finding I rarely turn it on. Is this skill worth it or would I be better off with Taunt for general combat?
Is Parry worth it?
Débuté par
Kalledon
, juil. 13 2011 04:30
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#2
Posté 13 juillet 2011 - 04:35
NWN DM
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I've always found Parry works in a low magic/power game environment. Others will crap all over it, but I've liked playing PCs built around frequent use of this skill as a combat strategy.
But you need a good dexterity and light armor to really make it work (a few supplemental feats also help - Improved Parry for example...).
So a Paladin in heavy armor and at best an average dexterity isn't ever going to be very good at Parry... or if s/he is, it will be at the cost of being not so good at other (very important) skills/abilities.
But you need a good dexterity and light armor to really make it work (a few supplemental feats also help - Improved Parry for example...).
So a Paladin in heavy armor and at best an average dexterity isn't ever going to be very good at Parry... or if s/he is, it will be at the cost of being not so good at other (very important) skills/abilities.
#3
Posté 13 juillet 2011 - 04:43
painofdungeoneternal
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If you want something which helps you deal with single foes weaker than you, then parry is fine, or if you like the fluff factor - i like whirlwind attack just for the animation alone even though it's basically useless it's fun for showing off. It does have some use, but it's always had some major issues ( others prolly better than me can list what is wrong with it ). For powerbuilding i've always seen it more akin to those who try to choose the worst options and show how they figured out how to make them marginally useful.
If you are in a fight for your life, i would not touch it with a 10 foot pole, there are generally better options even if your build has been optimized for parry unless you meet very specific situations and encounters. Skilled low level players can find spots where it's useful, but the alternative of just whacking things over the head works all the time and only very rarely is less effective ( at specific levels for yourself and your encounters ). However i imagine a module builder could create encounters where it's of use. But then i don't see much practical use for taunt either. Ideally you can taunt casters forcing them into melee but those folks tend to be the hardest targets for taunting, it's main advantage over parry is it's not completely bug ridden.
If you are in a fight for your life, i would not touch it with a 10 foot pole, there are generally better options even if your build has been optimized for parry unless you meet very specific situations and encounters. Skilled low level players can find spots where it's useful, but the alternative of just whacking things over the head works all the time and only very rarely is less effective ( at specific levels for yourself and your encounters ). However i imagine a module builder could create encounters where it's of use. But then i don't see much practical use for taunt either. Ideally you can taunt casters forcing them into melee but those folks tend to be the hardest targets for taunting, it's main advantage over parry is it's not completely bug ridden.
Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 13 juillet 2011 - 04:48 .
#4
Posté 13 juillet 2011 - 05:02
Kalledon
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I don't suppose there is a way to reset my skills so I don't have to restart my character?
#5
Posté 13 juillet 2011 - 05:25
Arkalezth
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I guess you can use the console to increase or drop skill points. I don't know the exact command, though.
#6
Posté 13 juillet 2011 - 05:28
The Fred
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I'm actually not sure about Parry.
The skill is bugged, as mentioned on the wiki page. Specifically, attacks are grouped into three "flurries", and only one from each of a foe's flurries can be parried. However, if you actually look at BAB progression, high-BAB characters don't get four attacks until L16+, so as I understand it, Parry will be able to block all attacks until that point.
A bigger issue is that a lot of encounters consist of large numbers of weak enemies. Because you can only Parry a number of attacks equal to your number of attacks, you can only Parry 1-3 attacks at L1-16, so if you're being attacked by three or more even L1 characters, tough. Now, on the other hand, some of these attacks may not hit. I'm not sure though whether the AC or Parry check is made first, though.
That aside, Parry scales at the same speed as BAB for a high-BAB character, with a +3 bonus from 1st level. Whilst AC boosts are probably more common, Parry boosts are also cheaper. Even in a low magic setting, Gloves of Swordplay are not really gold dust as far as treasure goes, yet they would be very useful to a Parry character. The Greater versions add a +6 bonus (and probably the only other thing you might put in that slot is Bracers of Defence, which add an armour bonus to AC you could get from your actual armour).
It seems to me that Parry could be useful, but it somewhat setting-specific. In low magic, low level settings, where enemy groups are favourable (i.e. smaller numbers, one-on-one fights, etc), it might be nice. One thing I'm doing in my campaign is giving certain weapons (tonfa and sai, which are generally inferior) a base +1 Parry bonus in an attempt to make the skill more attractive to low-level characters.
However, by and large it's just not worth the effort when you could bump up your AC and just kill things quicker. You can afford to take skill points in it anyway, since Fighter-types don't get many other options, but for it to be effective you need to commit, and if it doesn't work so well then you're kind of stuck.
The skill is bugged, as mentioned on the wiki page. Specifically, attacks are grouped into three "flurries", and only one from each of a foe's flurries can be parried. However, if you actually look at BAB progression, high-BAB characters don't get four attacks until L16+, so as I understand it, Parry will be able to block all attacks until that point.
A bigger issue is that a lot of encounters consist of large numbers of weak enemies. Because you can only Parry a number of attacks equal to your number of attacks, you can only Parry 1-3 attacks at L1-16, so if you're being attacked by three or more even L1 characters, tough. Now, on the other hand, some of these attacks may not hit. I'm not sure though whether the AC or Parry check is made first, though.
That aside, Parry scales at the same speed as BAB for a high-BAB character, with a +3 bonus from 1st level. Whilst AC boosts are probably more common, Parry boosts are also cheaper. Even in a low magic setting, Gloves of Swordplay are not really gold dust as far as treasure goes, yet they would be very useful to a Parry character. The Greater versions add a +6 bonus (and probably the only other thing you might put in that slot is Bracers of Defence, which add an armour bonus to AC you could get from your actual armour).
It seems to me that Parry could be useful, but it somewhat setting-specific. In low magic, low level settings, where enemy groups are favourable (i.e. smaller numbers, one-on-one fights, etc), it might be nice. One thing I'm doing in my campaign is giving certain weapons (tonfa and sai, which are generally inferior) a base +1 Parry bonus in an attempt to make the skill more attractive to low-level characters.
However, by and large it's just not worth the effort when you could bump up your AC and just kill things quicker. You can afford to take skill points in it anyway, since Fighter-types don't get many other options, but for it to be effective you need to commit, and if it doesn't work so well then you're kind of stuck.
#7
Posté 13 juillet 2011 - 05:37
The Fred
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According to the wiki, it would seem the AC check is made after the Parry check (which makes sense). If this is true, and that doesn't count as one of your Parry uses (do only successful uses count?) then I can see you bumping Parry high and also having a high AC; Dexterity applies to both so this could be effective. Your offensive capabilities would not be great, but if you aren't being hit often it might be OK (though fights would be slow).The Fred wrote...
I'm not sure though whether the AC or Parry check is made first, though.
Also remember that a L7+ Duelist adds their level to Parry.
Too lazy atm to do the maths as far as mobs and stuff go, though.
#8
Posté 13 juillet 2011 - 06:22
Mysstic1
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I was very interested in Parry from a roleplay perspective, and I looked into it in-depth. I playtested very high Parry-specific builds, and I found them lacking. It's a shame that the skill is so buggy. I couldn't recommend using it even though I really, really wanted to use it.
The flurry bug is a big problem at high levels, and Parry getting overwhelmed by too many attackers is a problem at every level. What good is a defense with gaping holes in it? Sure you could combine Parry with a high AC, but it lets through a bunch of attacks regardless. And Parry fights take much, much longer than normal fights. Even though you reduce the number of attacks that hit you, the extra length of time that fights last means you get swung at more often. It ends up not just being a wash, but actually being a disadvantage. You'd be better off focusing on the high AC and just whacking at things, rather than going high AC + Parry. It's too bad.
The flurry bug is a big problem at high levels, and Parry getting overwhelmed by too many attackers is a problem at every level. What good is a defense with gaping holes in it? Sure you could combine Parry with a high AC, but it lets through a bunch of attacks regardless. And Parry fights take much, much longer than normal fights. Even though you reduce the number of attacks that hit you, the extra length of time that fights last means you get swung at more often. It ends up not just being a wash, but actually being a disadvantage. You'd be better off focusing on the high AC and just whacking at things, rather than going high AC + Parry. It's too bad.
#9
Posté 13 juillet 2011 - 08:15
The Fred
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Actually, looking at the numbers, things start to look pretty good against a single foe, at least if you take Improved Parry.
Consider a character with maxed Parry being attacked by a single foe of maximum BAB. Let's assume that the defender has the awsome Improved Parry and the attacker the essential Weapon Focus. Now, for the first attack, let's take a sensible case where P, the defender's Parry score, is 1 point greater than A, the attacker's attack score (+3 from 1st level, -1 from Studded Leather or Mithril Banded, say, -1 from Weapon Focus, no item bonuses). This gives the defender a 0.5725 chance of parrying (just better than evens, due to the fact s/he only needs to equal the attack roll). There is a 0.34 chance of a riposte (using Improved Parry's bonus).
So we can see that no matter what level, your chance of parrying is decent. There is something of an issue in that attacks which do get past are also more likely to get past your AC, which is probably similar to your foe's since you will have a better Dex score but worse armour. Your attacks will also be poorer since you're less likely to have as good a Str bonus and it's not fair to consider you having the same Weapon Focus feats PLUS Weapon Finesse and Improved Parry.
However, at higher levels, Parry actually improves. Your Parry checks take a cumulative -3 penalty, but attack rolls take a cumulative -5 penalty. With Improved Parry, you also take one less penalty. Therefore, you actually have a 0.7725 chance of parrying the second attack and a 0.5725 chance of riposting. The third attack gets better still, a 0.835 chance of parrying and a 0.66 chance of riposting.
Against a same-level character, then, you are going to be riposting on average 1.6 times of 3 whereas they will get 0.82 attacks of 3 through to go up against your AC. The attacks which do get through are probably a bit more likely to hit than yours are, though.
I would say that with a single feat, Parrying is slightly but not really all that much better than not Parrying in this situation.
Gear can make a difference - Greater Gloves of Swordplay cost less than even a +1 weapon, so I don't think it's fair to add a big weapon bonus in without giving the defender a +6 Parry bonus (which will be greater than than the weapon's bonus).
All of this becomes minor when considering multiple enemies, however. It's not fair to throw you up against two characters of the same or similar levels, because all things being equal an offensive warrior would also lose. However, Mysstic's point that you kill them slower is sound - you will be taking attacks from two guys for longer. That aside, though, two guys making one attack each are not worse than one guy making two, since to only make one attack they will have lower BABs even though non of their attacks suffer the -5 penalty. The issue is when you get two guys making the same number of attacks as you - in this situation you want to down one quickly. It might be possible to build a character who only parries when s/he gets down to one foe, though, without sacrificing much.
Consider a character with maxed Parry being attacked by a single foe of maximum BAB. Let's assume that the defender has the awsome Improved Parry and the attacker the essential Weapon Focus. Now, for the first attack, let's take a sensible case where P, the defender's Parry score, is 1 point greater than A, the attacker's attack score (+3 from 1st level, -1 from Studded Leather or Mithril Banded, say, -1 from Weapon Focus, no item bonuses). This gives the defender a 0.5725 chance of parrying (just better than evens, due to the fact s/he only needs to equal the attack roll). There is a 0.34 chance of a riposte (using Improved Parry's bonus).
So we can see that no matter what level, your chance of parrying is decent. There is something of an issue in that attacks which do get past are also more likely to get past your AC, which is probably similar to your foe's since you will have a better Dex score but worse armour. Your attacks will also be poorer since you're less likely to have as good a Str bonus and it's not fair to consider you having the same Weapon Focus feats PLUS Weapon Finesse and Improved Parry.
However, at higher levels, Parry actually improves. Your Parry checks take a cumulative -3 penalty, but attack rolls take a cumulative -5 penalty. With Improved Parry, you also take one less penalty. Therefore, you actually have a 0.7725 chance of parrying the second attack and a 0.5725 chance of riposting. The third attack gets better still, a 0.835 chance of parrying and a 0.66 chance of riposting.
Against a same-level character, then, you are going to be riposting on average 1.6 times of 3 whereas they will get 0.82 attacks of 3 through to go up against your AC. The attacks which do get through are probably a bit more likely to hit than yours are, though.
I would say that with a single feat, Parrying is slightly but not really all that much better than not Parrying in this situation.
Gear can make a difference - Greater Gloves of Swordplay cost less than even a +1 weapon, so I don't think it's fair to add a big weapon bonus in without giving the defender a +6 Parry bonus (which will be greater than than the weapon's bonus).
All of this becomes minor when considering multiple enemies, however. It's not fair to throw you up against two characters of the same or similar levels, because all things being equal an offensive warrior would also lose. However, Mysstic's point that you kill them slower is sound - you will be taking attacks from two guys for longer. That aside, though, two guys making one attack each are not worse than one guy making two, since to only make one attack they will have lower BABs even though non of their attacks suffer the -5 penalty. The issue is when you get two guys making the same number of attacks as you - in this situation you want to down one quickly. It might be possible to build a character who only parries when s/he gets down to one foe, though, without sacrificing much.
#10
Posté 13 juillet 2011 - 09:10
painofdungeoneternal
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It is really setting specific.
Roleplay is a definite use for this, if you have it, you can use it to engage in a very long duel while you focus on witty banter. I can imagine Elan from OOTS doing this as a preferred method of fighting. It also would be good for a cleric who is a pacifist, to just keep himself safe.
I cannot see a Paladin engaging in this unless they were dealing with a special issue, ie their buddy is dominated or confused, and they do this to keep him from killing anyone until the effect wears off by just using up time via parry. Me myself, i'd be boosting charisma, and taking divine shield, casting spells on my sword, and adding that charisma bonus to each hit of my sword as damage. This is more focused on offense, quickly slaying evil foes, and helps charge the enemy which is more like a paladin you think of, a parry type character i'd think would be a swashbuckler/duelist type class even though there is nothing against a lightly armored dex based paladin in the rules.
Parry is not part of D&D, it's entirely done by bioware or obsidian, and it never was well thought out. The thing parry is supposed to be doing, is supposed to be done by the AC itself.
Roleplay is a definite use for this, if you have it, you can use it to engage in a very long duel while you focus on witty banter. I can imagine Elan from OOTS doing this as a preferred method of fighting. It also would be good for a cleric who is a pacifist, to just keep himself safe.
I cannot see a Paladin engaging in this unless they were dealing with a special issue, ie their buddy is dominated or confused, and they do this to keep him from killing anyone until the effect wears off by just using up time via parry. Me myself, i'd be boosting charisma, and taking divine shield, casting spells on my sword, and adding that charisma bonus to each hit of my sword as damage. This is more focused on offense, quickly slaying evil foes, and helps charge the enemy which is more like a paladin you think of, a parry type character i'd think would be a swashbuckler/duelist type class even though there is nothing against a lightly armored dex based paladin in the rules.
Parry is not part of D&D, it's entirely done by bioware or obsidian, and it never was well thought out. The thing parry is supposed to be doing, is supposed to be done by the AC itself.
#11
Posté 14 juillet 2011 - 06:23
Mysstic1
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The Fred's analysis is sound, except for the flurry bug. The parrier is not even testing his Parry skill against the 2nd and 3rd (or more) attacks in the attacker's flurries, only the first in each set of three flurries. The parrier may be riposting 1.6 times out of three on each first attack, but all of the attacker's additional attacks in their flurry routine are unanswered by the defender. So Parry works on three of their flurried attacks, and doesn't work on... how many? 1-3 more, if they're only using one weapon. Gods only knows how many if it's a Kaze build. 
Anyway, it's a lot of unanswered attacks. The skill actually gets worse as the characters get higher level, not better.
Anyway, it's a lot of unanswered attacks. The skill actually gets worse as the characters get higher level, not better.
