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Features/News You Must Hear to Restore/Bolster Your Confidence for DA? (Edit: Added Laidlaw's Response) Updated: 8/5/2011


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#76
MeAndMySandvich

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Tommy6860 wrote...
Bioware made the game they thought was best, despite the backlash, unlike I've seen levied against any Bioware game before. I certainly didn't care for the game on many levels, but why should Bioware acknowledge mistakes for making something they thought was what they wanted to sell. More importantly, that would just smack right in the face of those who really enjoyed the game and found it to their liking.


But can you honestly say that they would, if showed the final version of DA2 at the beginning of the DA2 dev cycle, consider what they saw final draft? Could they honestly tell us they were happy to recycle levels? Or that the combat was effectively paced and integrated into other aspects of gameplay? Or that the writing was final-draft quality? OTOH, I can't really blame them for switching to PR-speak, but it would be really nice for them to find a way to say something along the lines of "we are learning from this experience" even if they don't outright tell us mistakes were made.

#77
Maverick827

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1. A better blend of realism and responsive controls. Origins looked realistic, but controlled unrealistically. DA2 looked less realistic, but the controls went a bit too far. There has to be some middle ground between the shuffle and the anime sword charge (though I prefer the latter if there are no other options).

2. I don't necessarily need better graphics, but better optimization is crucial. DA2 ran better than DAO (for myself, at least) but it still ate up too much of my system, especially for the visuals it had.

3. Keep mixing up the formula. Go farther than you did in DA2. Don't go back to the "humble beginnings -> visit three places -> kill the big bad" motif.

4. For that matter, keep the character-driven narrative, or at least balance between the two. I often care more about why my character does something than what he actually might do.

5. Bring back origins if you can, but don't shoehorn them in. Actually make them matter this time, too. Origins should be dictated by circumstance, not solely class or race. If we can choose between multiple races, try to allow for (some) origins to be shared between them.

6. Add replayability outside of "I want to see what happens when I say 'yes' to the demon's offer." You're just prolonging the inevitable running out of content; you cannot create 'infinite' outcomes. NG+ or some form of multiplayer a la Neverwinter Nights would suffice. And since I've just brought up multiplayer, given what will likely be pages of incessant whining...

7. Invoke the Right of Annulment on the BioWare Social Network.

#78
Tommy6860

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xkg wrote...

"Bioware made the game they thought was best, despite the backlash, unlike I've seen levied against any Bioware game before. I certainly didn't care for the game on many levels, but why should Bioware acknowledge mistakes for making something they thought was what they wanted to sell"

Everyone is making mistakes. Admitting to it is the first step.
Maybe they thought it was best but it wasn't  - trying and doing are two completly different things - "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"


Exactly why is it a mistake? You would only be saying that from your own experiences, then demanding admittance based on that. Would you defer the same thinking on one who found DA:O equally mistake ridden from their experiences after having played DA2 and comparing? See what I mean?

"More importantly, that would just smack right in the face of those who really enjoyed the game and found it to their liking."

Following this logic - saying that they made no mistakes is smack in the face of those who didn't like it.


I wasn't citing logic, just simple prefernce. I think it is fine to not like the game based on one's own expereinces with the game. But if someone said that DA2 was better than Origins from their experiences and demanded Bioware admit mistakes, they'd probably get raked over coals for it.

#79
thedistortedchild

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Origin Stories
Follower armor
Discussions with the companions

#80
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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Emphasis on good, open RPG gameplay.

Whether that means multiple solutions to quests, bringing back non-combat skills, meaningful customisation, enforcing the supremacy of the character system in all aspects of player-game interaction - things like skill checks, attributes having multiple effects outside of combat, quests that encourage creativity, logical puzzles, useful reputation mechanics, actual consequences to choices, whatever.

I personally am a fan of player driven narrative, in which you (the player) is given a goal, then given free reign on how to complete it without restricting the player in a reasonable degree. The last game to do this well in concept and execution as a whole is probably Torment. Maybe Mask of the Betrayer. Games like Origins and New Vegas have moments here and there, but it's not consistent for the whole game. Origins has areas hamfisted because the plot demands it and New Vegas funnily enough has too many Fedex quests (your player character is called The Courier).

An example of this in a recent BioWare game would probably be how to approach Landsmeet. While it was limited (your actions dealing with the Mages, Redcliffe, Elves, etc should definitely come into focus much more to help establish The Warden as both the character you have and what The Warden looks like to everyone else), it gave you a broad objective and then let you free reign on how to deal with it. Whether you decide to help the Nobles, what you decide to scheme with Anora and/or Alistair, how you present your arguments to Loghain and the Bannorn and how all of that affects the eventual outcome. Player driven.

Conversely, I felt like Dragon Age 2's Act 1 would've been much more enjoyable had those same principles been applied. Your goal is 50 Sovereigns? Well, how would you earn that? Your choices (Meeran v Athenril) ought to dictate what quests you get in Act 1, as well as various interactions and quests involving the Nobility, City Guard, Mages, Templars, Coterie, the Alienage, Darktown, etc.

An introductory to the city of Kirkwall whereupon you are given the opportunity to deal with and interact with all these factions and people in a meaningful way. This would have an impact on the main questline for the Act (Meeran/Athenril) depending on how you choose to deal with them. For example, dealing with corrupt Nobles could become apart of the quests where Meeran has you looking for/investigating/hunting them but Athenril has you defending them. How you manage to deal with those Nobles affects what Aveline thinks of you and how the Guards perceive you. Quests like the Magistrate's Son could really get you into trouble in the main questline as the Magistrate hires Coterie assassins to kill you depending on your choices there. If you help him however, you could be rewarded through monetary means or political power, which could help when dealing with other Nobles.

Things like that. Interconnected quests, tangible consequences to your actions and player driven, open ended gameplay.

I'm usually not blown away by video game stories, only a handful have so far. I care much more about a solid story and decent characters that supports good gameplay and that's what I saw with Origins for the most part. That completely evaporated in Dragon Age 2 and instead of the story/characters making up for restrictive gameplay, it just magnified the problem for me (since I didn't like most of the characters and hated the execution of an otherwise interesting premise). To be fair, it actually did have a little of this, but there was a lot less than what I would've liked.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 15 juillet 2011 - 02:12 .


#81
Tommy6860

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MeAndMySandvich wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...
Bioware made the game they thought was best, despite the backlash, unlike I've seen levied against any Bioware game before. I certainly didn't care for the game on many levels, but why should Bioware acknowledge mistakes for making something they thought was what they wanted to sell. More importantly, that would just smack right in the face of those who really enjoyed the game and found it to their liking.


But can you honestly say that they would, if showed the final version of DA2 at the beginning of the DA2 dev cycle, consider what they saw final draft? Could they honestly tell us they were happy to recycle levels? Or that the combat was effectively paced and integrated into other aspects of gameplay? Or that the writing was final-draft quality? OTOH, I can't really blame them for switching to PR-speak, but it would be really nice for them to find a way to say something along the lines of "we are learning from this experience" even if they don't outright tell us mistakes were made.


But "liking" the game is a personal experience. I seriously dislike DA2 for all of the reasons you just listed, but who am I to say it was a mistake when that was their (Bioware's) intention on the style they wanted to create. The mistake factor is only pertinent to the ones who subjects themselves the playing the game and taking in the experience. In these forums, most disliked it, some really liked it and mistakes are a matter of taste after that (except for bugs and and technical issues).  I can and will say I feel they were dishonest in their advertising and promoting of the game (which still reflects as such on their site) that the game doesn't play as they say it will, or does.

#82
MeAndMySandvich

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Tommy6860 wrote...

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...
Bioware made the game they thought was best, despite the backlash, unlike I've seen levied against any Bioware game before. I certainly didn't care for the game on many levels, but why should Bioware acknowledge mistakes for making something they thought was what they wanted to sell. More importantly, that would just smack right in the face of those who really enjoyed the game and found it to their liking.


But can you honestly say that they would, if showed the final version of DA2 at the beginning of the DA2 dev cycle, consider what they saw final draft? Could they honestly tell us they were happy to recycle levels? Or that the combat was effectively paced and integrated into other aspects of gameplay? Or that the writing was final-draft quality? OTOH, I can't really blame them for switching to PR-speak, but it would be really nice for them to find a way to say something along the lines of "we are learning from this experience" even if they don't outright tell us mistakes were made.


But "liking" the game is a personal experience. I seriously dislike DA2 for all of the reasons you just listed, but who am I to say it was a mistake when that was their (Bioware's) intention on the style they wanted to create. The mistake factor is only pertinent to the ones who subjects themselves the playing the game and taking in the experience. In these forums, most disliked it, some really liked it and mistakes are a matter of taste after that (except for bugs and and technical issues).  I can and will say I feel they were dishonest in their advertising and promoting of the game (which still reflects as such on their site) that the game doesn't play as they say it will, or does.


Look at the development cycle, though, and think about whether they would have chose to recycle levels or use the dialogue they ended up with if they had been given even another year to work on the game. There are aspects of the game that people don't like that are intentional design decisions, but you can't honestly tell me you think they (for instance) would have recycled levels if they had more time for level design.

#83
Tommy6860

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MeAndMySandvich wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...
Bioware made the game they thought was best, despite the backlash, unlike I've seen levied against any Bioware game before. I certainly didn't care for the game on many levels, but why should Bioware acknowledge mistakes for making something they thought was what they wanted to sell. More importantly, that would just smack right in the face of those who really enjoyed the game and found it to their liking.


But can you honestly say that they would, if showed the final version of DA2 at the beginning of the DA2 dev cycle, consider what they saw final draft? Could they honestly tell us they were happy to recycle levels? Or that the combat was effectively paced and integrated into other aspects of gameplay? Or that the writing was final-draft quality? OTOH, I can't really blame them for switching to PR-speak, but it would be really nice for them to find a way to say something along the lines of "we are learning from this experience" even if they don't outright tell us mistakes were made.


But "liking" the game is a personal experience. I seriously dislike DA2 for all of the reasons you just listed, but who am I to say it was a mistake when that was their (Bioware's) intention on the style they wanted to create. The mistake factor is only pertinent to the ones who subjects themselves the playing the game and taking in the experience. In these forums, most disliked it, some really liked it and mistakes are a matter of taste after that (except for bugs and and technical issues).  I can and will say I feel they were dishonest in their advertising and promoting of the game (which still reflects as such on their site) that the game doesn't play as they say it will, or does.


Look at the development cycle, though, and think about whether they would have chose to recycle levels or use the dialogue they ended up with if they had been given even another year to work on the game. There are aspects of the game that people don't like that are intentional design decisions, but you can't honestly tell me you think they (for instance) would have recycled levels if they had more time for level design.


I wasn't making commentary on the game's design and I don't want to get into that (been there and done that ad nauseam). Only that to say that I don't think Bioware should admit mistakes on the basis that we have been discussing these past few posts. The game was created the way they saw fit, against wether you, me, or anyone else is totally subjective with the wants for an admission. There are those who thought it was OK, whether I disliked it or not is for my own reasons..

#84
Icy Magebane

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There's really nothing like this for me. I'm willing to give DA3 a chance unless I hear about something that I absolutely do NOT want in the the game. IMO this is the only "bad" Bioware title I've played, and that's still too harsh... it's not even a bad game, just a bit lacking in some areas.

#85
TEWR

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JohnEpler wrote...

alex90c wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I'm going to leave this open, with one caveat - that it not be used as a vehicle to attack specific individuals. Feel free to discuss design decisions or other aspects of the game as a whole that you feel would be a must-have, but avoid the 'as long as person X is gone'.


...what's wrong with wanting a character gone?


Allow me to clarify.

'Character X needs to be gone', groovy. No problem.

'Developer X needs to be gone', nope. Not something we're going to be doing here.


What about "Forumite(s) X should be hired"? Image IPB



where X denotes either one or various forumites.

#86
MeAndMySandvich

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Tommy6860 wrote...
I wasn't making commentary on the game's design and I don't want to get into that (been there and done that ad nauseam). Only that to say that I don't think Bioware should admit mistakes on the basis that we have been discussing these past few posts. The game was created the way they saw fit, against wether you, me, or anyone else is totally subjective with the wants for an admission. There are those who thought it was OK, whether I disliked it or not is for my own reasons..


Except a huge number of these things aren't subjective. Take level recycling - there's absolutely nothing that would justify that from anything but a resource-saving perspective. So it would be nice if they actually acknowledged that.

#87
Serpieri Nei

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For Starters

Race Customization
Customizable Companions: No Restrictions on Armor/Gear/Weapons or Skill Trees for their class
Companion Interaction Increased
Weapon Restrictions Removed
Real Choices – Real Consequences
Exploration
Elves – Origin Style- sorry can’t stand the donkies and fish people
Darkspawn – Origin Style – yeah mutated clowns – bad choice
Isometic View
Item Descriptions
DA:Origins/Awakenings Specilaizations
DA: Origins Stats
DA: Tracker – Kills/Damage/Damage Taken etc..
No Hawke
No More Lazy Fetch Quests
No Dialogue Wheel
No Recycled Enviorments
No Ninjas or Paratroopers or Tedious Waves

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 15 juillet 2011 - 06:35 .


#88
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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Oh, a combat/dialog log, stats tracker and other things like that would be really nice, but that's one of the "small" things that indicates attention to detail and more importantly, a long development time.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 15 juillet 2011 - 04:18 .


#89
Yuqi

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More straight LI~( All of them being Bi is unrealistic, and imersion breaking. Sebastion does not count since he is DLC)
No recycled areas(Well I could forgive one or two.)
Don't nerf the warriors.
No pointless item quests.
Choices that matter.
Bring back the corertion skill
Having a Fem protagonist on the cover,for once (or at least put both male and female)
No rushed endings like the third act.
No annoying unskipable tutorial at the start.

#90
erynnar

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One thing I want to see...make the game for PC and improve the ports to consoles. But make it for PC first...make great, make it beautiful.

And another, no more catering to an audience that will not love RPGs. No more hybrid hack n' slash/FPS/Action/ RPG lite.

NO more trying to make DA into ME in medieval drag.

The devil is in the details, bring them back (books, easter eggs, hidden doors, descriptions on items)

Bring back what made DAO successful, fix what didn't work, and make what was meh better.

And for F's sake put the darkspawn back the way they were.

edited due to derp Ery

Modifié par erynnar, 16 juillet 2011 - 06:15 .


#91
Lakhi

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The midpoint of DAO and DAII would be perfect for me in terms of gameplay, with regard to plot give me something that's compelling like the witcher 2 but grand in scale like DAO was, then I'm hooked.

#92
csfteeeer

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Lakhi wrote...

The midpoint of DAO and DAII would be perfect for me in terms of gameplay, with regard to plot give me something that's compelling like the witcher 2 but grand in scale like DAO was, then I'm hooked.


This.

#93
Tremere

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What I'd like to see as well is a game with a true open ending, along with side quests that are truly random and don't disappear after a certain period or stage. With all the fighting and energy expenditure, why is there no sleeping and/or eating? What's the purpose of a grand mansion (and a four post canopy bed) if it's only to pick up mail and store gear? It would also be nice to see a somewhat realistic price scale for items and equipment as well. The amount of money/gear that was dropped by antagonists versus the cost of some of the games better items, was a bit out of sync in my opinion.

#94
Steppenwolf

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I'm waiting on someone from Bioware to show that they actually know why DA2 has been so poorly received by so many. I keep seeing where a dev has said that the old fans just couldn't handle the changes that were made, as if its impossible for those changes to have been anything but awesome. Most of the changes have been poorly received by fans and critics alike. And then revs say that DA2 is the future of the franchise. Has anyone at Bioware stopped and asked why DA2 underperformed and come up with anything other than "people don't like change"?

#95
fightright2

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erynnar wrote...

One thing I want to see...make the game for PC and improve the ports to consoles. But make it for PC first...make great, make it beautiful.

And another, no more catering to an audience that will not love RPGs. No more hybrid hack n' slash/FPS/Action/ RPG lite.

NO more trying to make DA into ME in medieval drag.

The devil is in the details, bring them back (books, easter eggs, hidden doors, descriptions on items)

Bring back what made DAO successful, fix what didn't work, and make what was meh.

And for F's sake put the darkspawn back the way they were.


Agreed.

#96
AngryFrozenWater

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erynnar wrote...

One thing I want to see...make the game for PC and improve the ports to consoles. But make it for PC first...make great, make it beautiful.

And another, no more catering to an audience that will not love RPGs. No more hybrid hack n' slash/FPS/Action/ RPG lite.

NO more trying to make DA into ME in medieval drag.

The devil is in the details, bring them back (books, easter eggs, hidden doors, descriptions on items)

Bring back what made DAO successful, fix what didn't work, and make what was meh.

And for F's sake put the darkspawn back the way they were.

That would definitely help. Maybe add some loving back to the game? A good way to start is to cut the redefinitions of streamlining and innovation from BW's dictionary. Customers aren't stupid, so BW shouldn't treat them that way.

#97
Tommy6860

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MeAndMySandvich wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...
I wasn't making commentary on the game's design and I don't want to get into that (been there and done that ad nauseam). Only that to say that I don't think Bioware should admit mistakes on the basis that we have been discussing these past few posts. The game was created the way they saw fit, against wether you, me, or anyone else is totally subjective with the wants for an admission. There are those who thought it was OK, whether I disliked it or not is for my own reasons..


Except a huge number of these things aren't subjective. Take level recycling - there's absolutely nothing that would justify that from anything but a resource-saving perspective. So it would be nice if they actually acknowledged that.


IIRC, Mike laidlaw started a thread and acknowledged the recycling issue as just one aspect. In fact, that thread was close to admitting mistakes. I just cannot be bothered to find it right now.

#98
LeBurns

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Ok darnit, I'm going back to the OP real question and I try to answer it one more time without picking on BioWares current leadership or vision/dream/what have you.

There would have to actually be a DAO2 made.  BioWare would have to pick up the DAO engine and all it's parts, tweak it some, upgrade a little, add another incredible epic story and deliver it.  This is what they should have done to begin with and would have been a whole lot easier than rushing all the changes they crammed into DA2 anyway.  But if they did this, if they really gave us a DAO2, I'd be on board again.

I am sure however that BioWare will not go back to a DAO western RPG style of gaming so DAO will be my only DA game.  Thankfully I never got past the demo for DA2 and saved myself some money. 

#99
Siven80

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I would like a more realistic art style, more DAO or TW2 than the art style DA2 uses.

The midpoint between DAO and DA2 combat speed would be good too, not too slow, not too fast. Fun, responsive yet lean on the realism side rather than cartoon/anime.

I would love the camera to be able to zoom out a bit further. But im not too bothered about an isometric camera. Sure it would be nice, but i dont see it as that important as you can be just as tactical without it.

I would like to see less skills and abilities BUT more upgrade paths to them. Example being have a shield sustanable with several upgrade paths that each focus on a more defensive or offensive nature. Gives players more control over skills and customization is always fun. Also helps with the consoles lack of keys/buttons and helps with some abilities becoming underused because of having too many things to use.

Would love a more involved plot and storyline that feels more compelling.

I loved the unique armor for the companions. But i would like to see more upgrades available for them along with some graphical difference to the armor after an upgrade, and make them interchangaeble.

Less trash loot and less useless loot. If that means less loot but more upgrades? im all in. TW2 did great with only a handfull of armor and weapon loot.

Origins storys would be ok, BUT only if it fits into the plot like they did in DAO. Otherwise they may feel out of place.

Just move forward, dont go back. Complexity for the sake of it is a terrible design. Simplifying things doesnt means dumbing down either, everyone prefers things that are easier to access, but have depth to it.

#100
Monica83

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Xewaka wrote...

"We're getting rid of the paraphrases."
Also: "We're re-adding a working camera to PC so that AoE aiming is not a nightmare."
"We're re-adding non-combat skills and allowing to resolve confrotations through the use of them instead of combat."
"We're re-adding pace breakers and puzzle level to reduce the dullness of cyclic combat-talk-combat-talk dynamic."
"We're reworking the system so that it could be converted to tabletop RPG, thus ensuing integrity and coherence in the gameplay and character design."
"We're re-adding proper characterization of of NPCs so we can remove silly, uncalled for restrictions in their configuration that had no real point."
"We're avoiding facepalm inducing autoattack animations."
"We're allowing you to play as a dorf."
There's so many stuff gone wrong in DA 2.


This and i Add:

-Origins returned-
-we want more realistic animation and not the comic ones of DA2-
-we are adding a lot of details on the envirovment-
-we redesigned the elves to be more attractive-
-we're getting rid of the cartoonish look-