260 réponses à ce sujet

[Riloux]

 I severely doubt any of the things you listed are going to happen.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Okay, to point out an example to highlight my point, watch this video:



The Trial of Ember from Neverwinter Nights 2 (or at least apart of the Trial). Probably the closest realisation of my ideas with dialog that I've seen. Shame we don't get more of that in games today.

[Tommyspa]

Things that would make DA2 on par at least with a DAO level of a game for me would be.

1. Rework the wave system, no drop down spawning, a small suggestion to solve this is to have them all spawn off screen so we don't have to see the drop down and then making them run in from around the corner would be a vast improvement of this. (small scale fix, possibly in a enhanced ultimate edition? or at the very least an official patch)

2. Map variety. The set pieces of Sundermount, The Wounded Coast, The Bone Pit, and the sections of Kirkwall are perfectly fine given that the game's context of being placed in Kirkwall alone. The problem is the interiors of Kirkwall. Fenris needs his own designed mansion, even Merrill's shack has a unique design. All others need variation, there is really no excuse for a cave in the bone pit to have the same large idol that the cave on top of Sundermount has. Other examples are obvious. (Enhanced UE possibility again?)

3. An alternate ending for siding with whatever side you choose. In a gameplay/scene manner not an epilogue of what happens afterwards way. ie Orsino. Perhaps actually going deep into the Gallows in one of those scenarios. (And another suggestion for an enhanced UE version, but not vital)

4. A better way of presenting quests and quest completion. If you complete one main/secondary/companion quest at a time the game's plot and sub stories have a good sense of continuity and enhances the storytelling experience. But when you have the ability to jump around it serves to destroy that sense of flow and then disjoints the story itself. DAO worked with it because you had to go to these places finish the quests then move on, although you could leave, I never felt the need to compile quests then get them over with like in DA2 because they make you explore the same places and gives you the option to do them simultaneously.

5. I understand the reason about taking away the ability to change companions clothes, it does make them look far more unique, but maybe those upgrades could change the look of them noticeably during the game. (Outside of romance armor changes, though this was a fabulous idea IMO)

[Shuma Gorath]

mrcrusty wrote...

Okay, to point out an example to highlight my point, watch this video:



The Trial of Ember from Neverwinter Nights 2 (or at least apart of the Trial). Probably the closest realisation of my ideas with dialog that I've seen. Shame we don't get more of that in games today.

Curse You...Now I have to find my NW2 CD's while DA2 continues to be a coaster.

[Savber100]

Riloux wrote...

 I severely doubt any of the things you listed are going to happen.

Ah... but that's not the point of this thread is it? No, the point is to simply raise an awareness of the features WE (the fans) want. Whether it happens or not is Bioware's job as we have simply done our part in telling them what we believe is crucial for the best RPG experience.

After all, Bioware has always said that they make games for the fans. Lets see how how good is Bioware's word and how much they believe that their fans are worth.

mrcrusty wrote...

Okay, to point out an example to highlight my point, watch this video:



The
Trial of Ember from Neverwinter Nights 2 (or at least apart of the
Trial). Probably the closest realisation of my ideas with dialog that
I've seen. Shame we don't get more of that in games today.

Thank you kindly, good sir. Both your link and your post have helped!

[KLUME777]

mrcrusty wrote...



Then the idea is to use attributes/skills as a method of developing alternative avenues of conversation rather than a binary success/fail type check. Furthermore, depending on the conversation, or your goal, you may not want to "succeed". For example, the cunning stat could be used to open up options to blackmail people in conversation. Now usually, this would get you some extra gold and/or help. But what if you encounter an NPC with a weak personality?

Say for example you're doing an investigation quest for a criminal syndicate who are shaking down the local merchants. You could try and intimidate one of the shopkeepers to help you by blackmail, this is checked by Cunning. He tells you where the hideout is but once you get there, you'll find that they had been expecting you. The shopkeeper was already broken in by the syndicate and while your blackmail was successful (you got the information), he was still too scared and went to tell the syndicate of your plans. The same would happen if you tried to Intimidate him aggressively.

Now, in this case, through the dialog, you'd want to reassure him and let him know in no uncertain terms that they will protect him afterward. So, Coercion skill. Alternatively, you could pickpocket him or steal a parchment from his store that gives clues on where the hideout was. If your character has a high enough Intelligence, you could decode that parchment. If not, you could take the information to the shopkeeper and Coerce, Blackmail or Intimidate him without the need for a skill check. Obviously, you'd need to add some challenge to the Stealing/Pickpocketing aspect of it to prevent it from becoming too easy. So maybe, reactive NPCs with an actual law and order system. Like most games already.

Also, making them invisible (no skill tags) would make it easier from a roleplaying perspective.

So you'd have:

"Look, we need that information. People's lives are at stake at, we both know that. Look at my face, do I look like I am lying? I promise you, no matter what happens, we'll protect you."
"I wonder what the Guards would say if we told them that you were doing business with the Syndicate, hmm? I don't think they'd be too happy. Tell us what we need to know or you're taking a one way trip to prison."
"I could stay here and beat you down to a pulp. I mean, I'm in the mood to do exactly that!! So tell me where I can find the Syndicate, or your criminal friends will be sweeping what's left of you off the floor!!

1. Coercion
2. Blackmail
3. Intimidate

But leave it displayed as above with no tags.

On second thought, I am okay with tags, just not the New Vegas type where they display the check level too. Makes it too gamey.

Of course, in a world where both protagonists and NPCs are fully voiced, the kind of depth I'm looking for isn't really possible.

This is very good. This is why i want a silent PC, you just can't get that kind of depth with the voiced characters that Bioware creates.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Not to mention variations in the dialog depending on the character. The personality tracking does this, but it misses some really important ones such as Intelligence or other aspects of character creation affecting dialog. The problem with tonal based dialog and personality tracking to replace attribute, skills or character creation (Origins, Race, etc) based dialog options (as opposed to supplementing or integrating them), is that the tone is layered on top of an already set personality. This is made much worse by a voiced protagonist and especially the paraphrase (if inaccurate).

Why?

Because it already assumes a baseline personality, then modifies the topping to give the character flavour. To be fair, all RPGs do this to a point since we don't type out our own responses, but tonal dialog along with a voiced protagonist would be absolutely dreadful unless the protagonist is also set. If the protagonist is set, then it's really not a problem as long as it's implemented well. Geralt and Shepard mostly fall under this.

I'm a fan of blank slate RPGs over defined protagonist RPGs (though I'm okay with both) simply because they tend to provide more freedom and are easier in creating "emergent narratives" or your own stories within the greater story. Which is always one of (if not) the biggest reason(s) why I like RPGs.

Origins was wonderful at this. Whether it was just me being taken in by the narrative, or whether it was great from an objective standpoint, doesn't really matter. I don't think I'll forget my City Elf playthrough where he started as frustrated, spiteful against humans and idolising the Dalish. After being given a hard check on reality with Nature of the Beast, he became more tolerant of other races, realising that the world wasn't so black and white. He then became driven and determined to help the Alienage in Denerim. In the end, all those other aspects of the game were important and he did the best he could but for him, the overarching goal and narrative was actually the Alienage in Denerim, not the Archdemon and the Blight.

You can't represent that earnest personality through diplomatic choices, he's not always diplomatic, just driven towards the end game. However, what other responses are there? It's not snarky or aggressive. Similarly, his frustration at the beginning may not always be anger, or snark. It could be expressed through good old condescension.

Basing a system around tones makes it difficult for things like that. Alpha Protocol tried, but didn't really get there.

Now, it was not to the degree I would've liked, but the game did acknolwedge my City Elf heritage on more than one occassion. An important aspect of my character that I decided on creation was honored by the game. Now, whether that is an Origin, or whether it is a High/Low Int stat (I'd personally love to see a Charisma stat affect dialog too, think King's Speech), or what race you chose for the character, it is honored in the game. That is great.

However, a single voiced protagonist makes that nigh on impossible. How would you represent a stupid character? How would you represent an intelligent one? Different races? Different Origins (Noble/Commoner)?

That's from a purely technical standpoint, but a theoretical standpoint too, the voicing already assumes basic things about a character's personality. Hawke is well spoken, knowledgable and confident. A leader, regardless of how you roleplay him/her. What about if you have a character that will always be a number 2. Someone who follows, not leads? What about one who has a seedy personality, with an accent to match? These are things that voicing can't do that silent protagonists can. Or rather, areas that can be catered to with full text, silent PC responses but impossible with paraphrasing voiced protagonists, unless it's already part of their character.

Which is fine for your Geralts, Shepards, Hawkes & Thortons. They are defined protagonists.

But I'd absolutely hate the genre to move away from meaningful character creation and customisation. I don't consider tinkering around with the CC to be meaningful customisation. Unless they somehow implemented attractiveness into the game where NPCs react differently depending on how you look. But that's pretty much an impossibility and not all that important.

Wow, I type walls of text faster than I thought.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 18 juillet 2011 - 08:09 .

[ApostleinTriumph]

Let DA do its thing. Stop trying to make it another ME in fantasy setting. ME is a great franchise, but leave it there. Return the features from DA:O.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

mrcrusty wrote...

[...]

Well said!

Maybe 'Appearance' and 'Charisma' should return as stats, the former for physical attractiveness, the latter for natural charm and leadership.

If done right, 'Appearance' could be a stat generated by the character portrait (eg. having really bad skin tone might reduce overall Appearance, being an elf would increase it.) It does sort of become laughable when a hideous PC gets treated like sex on legs all the time.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Sounds like you've been playing Arcanum recently.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

everything from DA2 gone and a return to the epic that was origins

[csfteeeer]

OH!!!
ANOTHER THING!!
Try to Perfect the Difficulty Curve.
DA2 in Nightmare is hard, but for the wrong reasons.
and Origins in Nightmare just wasn't hard enough.

a direct way to perfect the difficulty curve is to remove that hideous Wave System, and stop making every single fight with 30 to 40 enemies, is ridiculous.
what i think they should do, something kinda like in Mass Effect 2, in ME2, enemies where armed with special types of armor, and some ammunition made more damage to them than the others and the regular one.
something like in DA, could be something like, an enemie is nearly inmune to penetration (things like Arrows or daggers), but is weaker towards, say, Maces or Hammers.
that's tactical, to try to make you understand and discover what is the best solution.

Also, let the enemies have more HP than Origins, but not as ridiculous as in DA2.
in DA2, the enemies completely leveled up with you, to the max, which made the game feel like, in the combat, there was very little progression after leveling up, other than just new abilities, which almost felt like a Multiplayer game.
make the enemies level with you until a point, after leveling up to the max, make sure you can feel the difference, the beauty of leveling up is feeling like a Bad-ass after reaching top level, in DA2, not until do i not feel like a bad ass after reaching high levels, i can't even reach the top level, theres not enough content in the game(although that was the case with Origins too, but at least you wer close, here you'll be lucky if you reach 35), the only way is the Grind all the way through, but even with all the content, the top reach would probably be 35.

so you're telling me that i have to Grind 15 levels? when it takes forever just to level up once?
Hell no, do you really think your combat is that fun that someone would stand this?

also, bring back potion and trap making, but try to implement the difficulty curve to make you feel like you really should use, i barely ever used it in Origins, i didn't needed too, this needs to change, not just out right disappear like in DA2.

and, focus a bit more on the loot.
BioWare has always made decent loot, i cannot put right next to other Dungeon Crawlers such as Diablo, but i understand that this is not what they're going for.
but the Loot in DA2 is just a joke, you'll need an Ultra Powerful sword to make any difference in Battle, you might as well just stay with your initial equipment.
there is no loot that is worth caring for until act 3, where you can finally get the Champion Armor, but doing so involves beating one of the most annoying, cheap and grindy bosses that i have seen in a while.
see what i'm talking?

make the loot at least worth the damn.

another thing, do something like in ME2, where you could buy secret clusters to visit them and find some stuff for the ship, or something like that.

in DA3, make it something like hidden caves, dungeons, laberynths, etc, and, of course, give us an damn good loot in the process.
it will make Griding more interesting and you put some of the most intereting loot in there, to make it even more attractive.
what kind of loot? well, you remember that AWESOME cgi trailer Sacred Ashes, and Warden's Calling?
well, you remember the equally AWESOME armor that the warden was wearing?
well make it, yes i know is in DA2, but it barely resembles it, it needs to look better, a loot like that would be great, pretty bad-ass.

Note: Like MANY other peope out there, i would ike to see the warden returning.
However, i won't be butthurt if i don't, i can live with it, but many (not many here, far more people from other places) would like it, and Morrigan too, and Leliana, she always survives, so there is no reason for her to not return, and Varric always survives as well, we would like to see him. these 3 is who people want to see returning.

and, the companion armor.
now, if you want to make the companions to have some sort of signature look, fine.
BUT, i still should be able to change their armor.
How? just make a series of Armors that are completely exclusive to the Companions, i don't you could find by inplementing Crafting (PLEASE implement item crafting too), doing their quests, Etc...
just now changing their look at ALL just won't click with me and to many people.
it didn't click with people in ME2, but the game was so G*d Damn good nobody cared.
not to mention, in TEN YEARS, the companions won't change their look at all unless you romance them?
is this Cartoon? seriously...

Modifié par csfteeeer, 18 juillet 2011 - 08:27 .

[devSin]

Tommyspa wrote...

1. Rework the wave system, no drop down spawning, a small suggestion to solve this is to have them all spawn off screen so we don't have to see the drop down and then making them run in from around the corner would be a vast improvement of this. (small scale fix, possibly in a enhanced ultimate edition? or at the very least an official patch)

I think this was a time constraint. BioWare has never been bad with this before. Given extra time, I think they would have made it more elegant. But now that it's basically in place, I think they'll do much better with it in the future. They're not going to change what's already in Dragon Age II, but future DLC and games should improve.

Tommyspa wrote...

2. Map variety. The set pieces of Sundermount, The Wounded Coast, The Bone Pit, and the sections of Kirkwall are perfectly fine given that the game's context of being placed in Kirkwall alone. The problem is the interiors of Kirkwall. Fenris needs his own designed mansion, even Merrill's shack has a unique design. All others need variation, there is really no excuse for a cave in the bone pit to have the same large idol that the cave on top of Sundermount has. Other examples are obvious. (Enhanced UE possibility again?)

They've noted this as a primary issue, so you can expect they won't be so ridiculous in the future (but they're surely not changing stuff already in Dragon Age II). Some reuse is okay, although I'd prefer they reuse set pieces (finished rooms and corridors) and textures and models that they already have to create slight variations (unless they absolutely have to, for space or memory considerations, but they didn't in DA2, because the thing would fit on a single DVD uncompressed) rather than just have it be the same building interior four or five times (this is what they used to do, except for throwaway areas).

Tommyspa wrote...

5. I understand the reason about taking away the ability to change companions clothes, it does make them look far more unique, but maybe those upgrades could change the look of them noticeably during the game. (Outside of romance armor changes, though this was a fabulous idea IMO)

It would be nice to have the look evolve at certain points. I guess it depends on the story, though.

The romance gear was nice, but I really wanted to see some corresponding accouterments in the Hawke model (a matching do-rag around your wrist for the Fenris romance springs to mind). It's like a school-girl crush, so sweet.

[Sith Grey Warden]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Well said!

Maybe
'Appearance' and 'Charisma' should return as stats, the former for
physical attractiveness, the latter for natural charm and leadership.

If
done right, 'Appearance' could be a stat generated by the character
portrait (eg. having really bad skin tone might reduce overall
Appearance, being an elf would increase it.) It does sort of become
laughable when a hideous PC gets treated like sex on legs all the time.

Or perhaps the other way around? The stat affects the character's appearance. Otherwise, it seems to me like it just becomes a matter playing with the character designer until you get the best appearance possible.

mrcrusty wrote...

Okay, to point out an example to highlight my point, watch this video:



The
Trial of Ember from Neverwinter Nights 2 (or at least apart of the
Trial). Probably the closest realisation of my ideas with dialog that
I've seen. Shame we don't get more of that in games today.

Wow. Just, wow. I recall this existing in KOTOR as well, though less extensive and more subtle (the first time I played as a character with no intelligence beyond the base stat, I was surprised to see my options had dwindled). If this was developed and used in DA3, I think it would be enough to save the franchise for RPG fans.

[Salaya]

I think you should reconsider the idea and write about the skills on the front page. Despite you agree or not, I think lots of people wants them back. But thats just my opinion

[DarthSliver]

The problem with Dragon Age 2 is it ended right when the good stuff really started to happen in the game. I do feel they had something good going and wasnt a complete failure but now i am left with wanting an expansion to finish Hawkes story because it just doesnt feel like its finished.
1. So I will say make sure Dragon Age 3 actually is a complete game because DA2 just felt like half a game.
2. Another thing that really bothers me about DA2 is it has reused maps, i mean i know games do that to save on time but this usage of reusing the maps was awful. So I am going to say no reused maps this time around if you can help it and if you must reuse a map actually take time to mesh it up or something. Make it feel like i wasnt there before, because I am sure Origins reused maps but i couldnt till.
3. I suggest you do bring back Origins type of race picking and choices, Id rather play a voiceless Protagonist that i feel is truly mine than one that id forget after i beat the game. I mean its one thing Bioware does right is making your character and their companions memorable. With DA2 I really feel disconnected with my Hawke than i do with my Warden from Origins. I also feel more connected to the Mass Effect characters than i do to Hawke and his/her companions. So I guess i am also saying there wasnt that sense of connection to DA2 characters, not the type of connection that Origins or Mass Effects characters have.

[macrocarl]

JohnEpler wrote...

devSin wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I'm not saying things just to hear myself speak.

You... hear words on the Internet?

That might actually explain some things.

I always find it rather awkward when people try to change common phrases to suit the internet - 'just to see myself type' is rather unwieldy, don't you think?

It sounds dirtier for some reason

[Savber100]

Salaya wrote...

I think you should reconsider the idea and write about the skills on the front page. Despite you agree or not, I think lots of people wants them back. But thats just my opinion

haha, I'm on it!

I don't disagree but I was a little unsure on how to write it since I originally believed that non-combat skills could somehow be implemented through gameplay rather than through a passive abilities.

But mr. crusty has made  a fine case and I'll add it. (Besides, this list is more or less the wishes of the fans not just me).

[Shadow Fox]

me personally I'd like to be able to pick my race again*I mostly played as a city elf in Origins* and a playable Orc race added*see WOW* and the return of the Arcane Warrior and Battlemage classes and I vote to keep the non silent protaganist as I actually like my character having a voice.

[csfteeeer]

Hey, a complain i saw not too long ago was people saying that the game was too easy on regular settings.
would you consider puting something like "Adjusting the Difficulty" or something like that?
i made a comment saying what I think they should do, just my opinion though, but they definetely should equilibrate the Difficulty curve.

[Salaya]

Savber100 wrote...

...
haha, I'm on it!

I don't disagree but I was a little unsure on how to write it since I originally believed that non-combat skills could somehow be implemented through gameplay rather than through a passive abilities.

But mr. crusty has made  a fine case and I'll add it. (Besides, this list is more or less the wishes of the fans not just me).

Thanks I think you reflected well the general idea of people who wants them back (as me).

[Alex Kershaw]

Good thread. Interestingly, nothing about the new combat though...

[Savber100]

csfteeeer wrote...

Hey, a complain i saw not too long ago was people saying that the game was too easy on regular settings.
would you consider puting something like "Adjusting the Difficulty" or something like that?
i made a comment saying what I think they should do, just my opinion though, but they definetely should equilibrate the Difficulty curve.

I read it and I was wondering if you can elaborate more on the "adjusting the difficulty"

What exactly do you want the DA team to do about it? Get rid of level scaling? Lower HP for enemies?

I got your point on no wave system and I'll be adding that soon.

Sorry we need to be clear here so that I don't end up misrepresenting your opinion.

Alex Kershaw wrote...

Good thread. Interestingly, nothing about the new combat though...

If you got anything to add, feel free to elaborate!

I personally thought the comments on the combat section was a bit thin. I'll be looking over the thread to see any other points were made about combat.

Modifié par Savber100, 19 juillet 2011 - 08:45 .