260 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirfan]

Alex Kershaw: Well, I can make a suggestion or 2 about the combat, No more scaling enemies - they are cheap and take away any feeling that you have actually progressed, oh, you have more abilities, but what does it matter when the battles feel exactly the same against exactly the same type of mooks, no matter the level. No more bloated hp-monsters, you can make the game difficult even without them.

Friendly Fire should not be tied to any difficulty level, but rather you should be able to turn it off or on on any difficulty (except Nightmare where it should be by definition be on), Over-the--top animations need to be banished to deepest pits of abyss.

Also, I'd like to see the return of overhead camera, which already is on the first page, getting rid of waves, better enemy AI, better encounter-design and actual balance, something that both DA-games lack.

In the optimal world, the encounters would be hard not just because of the number of enemies you face, but also because they use their abilities in a way that isn't stupid, and you shouldn't be able to look at the talent trees and pretty much outright see how you can make builds that have enormous dps-potential, which, sadly, is the only thing that matters, more emphasis on the usage of crowd-control abilities etc. is what I would like to see as an actually viable solution.

And then, you should not need to be in some metaphysical state of combat before you can start casting spells or attacking the enemies from range - I hate that I have to walk into every ambush in DA2 before I can start doing anything.

[sycophanticchallenger]

3 words: Silent ****ing protagonist.

Thank you.

[csfteeeer]

Savber100 wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...

Hey, a complain i saw not too long ago was people saying that the game was too easy on regular settings.
would you consider puting something like "Adjusting the Difficulty" or something like that?
i made a comment saying what I think they should do, just my opinion though, but they definetely should equilibrate the Difficulty curve.

I read it and I was wondering if you can elaborate more on the "adjusting the difficulty"

What exactly do you want the DA team to do about it? Get rid of level scaling? Lower HP for enemies?

I got your point on no wave system and I'll be adding that soon.

Sorry we need to be clear here so that I don't end up misrepresenting your opinion.

yes, Removing Enemie Level Scaling is one.
with the remove of level scaling, the enemies should also have less HP.
those things should be removed because i have seen many people complaining about this(including me).

My Opinion however, is that they should work a bit more in the difficulty to make it more tactical.to perfect the difficulty curve.
because like i said, DA2 was hard for the wrong reasons, and Origins just wasn't hard enough.
i will repost what i wrote before, along with other suggestions:

"a direct way to perfect the difficulty curve is to remove that hideous
Wave System, and stop making every single fight with 30 to 40 enemies,
is ridiculous.
what i think they should do, something kinda like in
Mass Effect 2, in ME2, enemies where armed with special types of armor,
and some ammunition made more damage to them than the others and the
regular one.
something like in DA, could be something like, an enemie
is nearly inmune to penetration (things like Arrows or daggers), but is
weaker towards, say, Maces or Hammers.
that's tactical, to try to make you understand and discover what is the best solution.

Also, let the enemies have more HP than Origins, but not as ridiculous as in DA2.
in
DA2, the enemies completely leveled up with you, to the max, which made
the game feel like, in the combat, there was very little progression
after leveling up, other than just new abilities, which almost felt like
a Multiplayer game.
make the enemies level with you until a point,
after leveling up to the max, make sure you can feel the difference, the
beauty of leveling up is feeling like a Bad-ass after reaching top
level, in DA2, not until do i not feel like a bad ass after reaching
high levels, i can't even reach the top level, theres not enough content
in the game(although that was the case with Origins too, but at least
you wer close, here you'll be lucky if you reach 35), the only way is
the Grind all the way through, but even with all the content, the top
reach would probably be 35.

so you're telling me that i have to Grind 15 levels? when it takes forever just to level up once?
Hell no, do you really think your combat is that fun that someone would stand this?

also, bring back potion and trap making, but try to implement the
difficulty curve to make you feel like you really should use, i barely
ever used it in Origins, i didn't needed too, this needs to change, not
just out right disappear like in DA2."

THIS part, is my opinion.
and i think people would agree from what i've been reading.
i also talked about loot and what i think they should do about the Companion Armor (which is a common Complain)
in my previous Post.

[TEWR]

sycophanticchallenger wrote...

3 words: Silent ****ing protagonist.

Thank you.

3 better words: ****ing voice toggle.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 juillet 2011 - 03:38 .

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

sycophanticchallenger wrote...

3 words: Silent ****ing protagonist.

Thank you.

3 better words: ****ing voice toggle.

Not really the same, given that we'll have to watch our character speak out truncated lines we've chose from the wheel, which will just feel like. . .a unneccesary cutscene middle man.   I could probably live with this, though.

There are like. . .5 threads on this type of subject.  Which are bioware drawing from?

[Sutekh]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

sycophanticchallenger wrote...

3 words: Silent ****ing protagonist.

Thank you.

3 better words: ****ing voice toggle.

This very much.

Of all the suggestions in the OP, Silent Protagonist is the only one I don't want. And I mean, I ****ing don't want it. I'm pretty sure there is some middle ground we can reach so everyone's happy, and voice toggle seems a good solution. And if the PC's lip synch is deactivated too, then no prob, the telepathic mute Silent Protagonist will be back. And if people don't want paraphrases, then let's have the actual line appear as a subtitle.

[Harid]

He's technically not a silent protagonist if you are choosing what he says in conflicts.

I never got why Bioware doesn't have like limited spoken silent protagonists.

They say what you choose DA:O style through dialogue selection, and at certain points in the story that require speech, like a parent dying, or stating a rousing speech before a battle, they can have like a few lines spoken so that someone else doesn't have to talk for you. That way, you can customize the voice of your protagonist, because they only speak a few lines, and yet your character can emote at times it's necessary for them to emote, yet you aren't skipping VAing because they speak too slowly in comparison to reading or having your spoken VA say something that's completely different than what you meant to say due to truncated Bioware Wheel choices. It seems like the perfect middle ground, but no dev does this. Bugs the hell out of me.

Silent Protagonists are people like Crono from Chrono Trigger that just nod and people respond to them as if they said something. The Warden not emoting in Dragon Age: Origins was not a function of him being a silent protagonist, it was a function of Bioware making our Wardens emote poorly.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

While a toggle would probably appease both parties, it is a band-aid for the core issue here. That being, a defined protagonist v an open one. I've already gone over the differences between both and why a voice would be bad for open protagonists, so I won't bother doing more tl;drs.

[Imrahil_]

Sutekh wrote...
Of all the suggestions in the OP, Silent Protagonist is the only one I don't want. And I mean, I ****ing don't want it. I'm pretty sure there is some middle ground we can reach so everyone's happy, and voice toggle seems a good solution. And if the PC's lip synch is deactivated too, then no prob, the telepathic mute Silent Protagonist will be back. And if people don't want paraphrases, then let's have the actual line appear as a subtitle.

No, there's no middle ground on this, because of the way allowing it limits the responses.  I mean, sure, I'll grant that *ideally*, it could be toggle, but a voiceless protagonist allows a lot more choices in written responses.  I don't think game companies can pay to have 50 different voice actors to represent the 5+ different ways of reading 5 different lines.

If you don't have to get someone to voice every single line, in every possible voice (Dwarf-who-is-belligerant, Elf-who-is-pacifist, Human-who-is-sarcastic, Dwarf-who-is-greedy, Elf-who-hates-humans-but-likes-dwarves, Human-who-is-resentful-of-being-dragged-into-this, Elf-who-is-only-sarcastic-with-Dwarves, Dwarf-who-is-noble-always, Human-who-helps-everyone, etc.), then you can write more dialogue possibilities.

For example, consider this line:

"Thank you, Master Dwarf, for this hammer."

Read it in the "voice" of all the personalities I just listed.  Go ahead.  Try it.  Each one will sound different in your head.

Now consider all the possible responses those personalities might give instead: "I don't want your stupid hammer." "This is a masterwork. You honor me." "I can't accept such a gift."
 
Incidentally, how did you read the last one?  It fits several of the possibilities.  A voiced protagonist limits you to one way of reading a line - how it is said out loud & how everyone hears it.

Voiced protagonists are fine for a fixed character.  Hawke, Geralt, Shepard, The Nameless One, etc.  They have a somewhat defined character & you can slightly vary it.  But if you want complete freedom to say a line how you hear it in your head - i.e. a blank-slate protagonist, you can't impose a voice.  It also imposes tone.

And that's why a toggle won't work.  It has to be either a blank slate or a fixed personality.  Gaming companies can't (at this point) give us 5+ different ways to hear the same line according to our character's personality, much less give us 5+ slightly different ways of hearing 5 different lines.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 20 juillet 2011 - 04:39 .

[Sutekh]

@Imrahil_ 

I've had this discussion here and elsewhere, about this game and others many times. I understand your points, they are valid, but I also know my own preferences. 

The crux of the matter being roleplaying and immersion, having a Silent Protagonist while everyone else speaks aloud is, for me, terrible in that regard. I, however, understand that everyone is not me, and that people whose roleplaying is ruined by a voice should have a solution.

No, there's no middle ground on this, because of the way allowing it limits the responses.  I mean, sure, I'll grant that *ideally*, it could be toggle, but a voiceless protagonist allows a lot more choices in written responses.  I don't think game companies can pay to have 50 different voice actors to represent the 5+ different ways of reading 5 different lines.

And this is why I feel any discussion is impossible. Even when we propose solutions, they are rejected immediately, without compromise. "My way or the highway".

I'm not asking for five different ways. People who want that are generally happy with a silent protagonist.  I'm proposing a solution, which might not be perfect, but would allow both silence and VA. You want five or twelve ways to say a given line, go silent. You're happy with a VA? Turn it on. That's as simple as that.

[TEWR]

mrcrusty wrote...

While a toggle would probably appease both parties, it is a band-aid for the core issue here. That being, a defined protagonist v an open one. I've already gone over the differences between both and why a voice would be bad for open protagonists, so I won't bother doing more tl;drs.

Can you PM it to me?

[TEWR]

Imrahil_ wrote...

No, there's no middle ground on this, because of the way allowing it limits the responses.  I mean, sure, I'll grant that *ideally*, it could be toggle, but a voiceless protagonist allows a lot more choices in written responses.  I don't think game companies can pay to have 50 different voice actors to represent the 5+ different ways of reading 5 different lines.

Except you can hire 1 VA who is able to do different sounding voices. Most however do singular roles as singular characters, despite their ability to do different voices. Those that do get to do their different voices are usually restricted to "additional voices". It could be due to a multitude of things (hard to keep in character, the VA doesn't have enough time, the game doesn't need the 1 VA to do varying voices, etc). But it can be done.

Take Robin Atkin Downes for example:





Two completely different voices.

You don't need to hire 5 different VAs to do 5 different voices. You can hire 1 VA who can do those 5 different voices.

Hugh Laurie is another example. He was able to perfect an American accent, despite him being British.

If you don't have to get someone to voice every single line, in every possible voice (Dwarf-who-is-belligerant, Elf-who-is-pacifist, Human-who-is-sarcastic, Dwarf-who-is-greedy, Elf-who-hates-humans-but-likes-dwarves, Human-who-is-resentful-of-being-dragged-into-this, Elf-who-is-only-sarcastic-with-Dwarves, Dwarf-who-is-noble-always, Human-who-helps-everyone, etc.), then you can write more dialogue possibilities.

For example, consider this line:

"Thank you, Master Dwarf, for this hammer."

Read it in the "voice" of all the personalities I just listed.  Go ahead.  Try it.  Each one will sound different in your head.

Now consider all the possible responses those personalities might give instead: "I don't want your stupid hammer." "This is a masterwork. You honor me." "I can't accept such a gift."
 
Incidentally, how did you read the last one?  It fits several of the possibilities.  A voiced protagonist limits you to one way of reading a line - how it is said out loud & how everyone hears it.

Voiced protagonists are fine for a fixed character.  Hawke, Geralt, Shepard, The Nameless One, etc.  They have a somewhat defined character & you can slightly vary it.  But if you want complete freedom to say a line how you hear it in your head - i.e. a blank-slate protagonist, you can't impose a voice.  It also imposes tone.

And that's why a toggle won't work.  It has to be either a blank slate or a fixed personality.  Gaming companies can't (at this point) give us 5+ different ways to hear the same line according to our character's personality, much less give us 5+ slightly different ways of hearing 5 different lines.

Some people find that a voiced protagonist doesn't restrict their roleplaying. Some people find that it actually enhances it for them. I'm among those people.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:39 .

[Frybread76]

Count me in for a silent protagonist, although voices are good for predetermined characters like Geralt. You get so much more freedom and dialogue options with a silent protagonist.

[happy_daiz]

Frybread76 wrote...

Count me in for a silent protagonist, although voices are good for predetermined characters like Geralt. You get so much more freedom and dialogue options with a silent protagonist.

So...you don't think Hawke is a "predetermined character"? I'd argue that sarcastic Hawke is still the same person as diplomatic Hawke, is the same person as aggressive Hawke. It's still Hawke.

I loved Origins, and I dealt with the silent protagonist, because I loved the story, but even when it first came out, that aspect of the game seemed dated for me. When DA2 came out, that immediately became one of my favorite things about it. Wow, my Hawke could actually have a conversation with companions and npcs. A real conversation! With voices and everything! Seems a bit more natural to me. I spent way too much time reading into the lines in Origins, wondering if they were meant to be sarcastic, funny, etc. They weren't always clear.

I'd prefer a voiced protagonist.

[Tirfan]

I'd be personally more than willing to settle for a voice-toggle, it is not perfect system by any means - it is an compromise, but well, it is still miles better than having voiced protagonist shoved down my throat, even if the game would be written for an voiced protagonist, I think, can't say for certain, but I feel, it would give me the illusion at least that I could play the character, to some extent, the way I want.

Happy_daiz: the problem with Hawke is that he is fixed only to a point, he only had an toned-voice, no motivations, no goals and no emotions, he wasn't written like he was an actual character.

Edit: okay, if you pick angry-responses he is angry for no apparent reason, "sarcastic"-responses just make him a douche, diplomatic makes him an naive idiot.

Modifié par Tirfan, 20 juillet 2011 - 01:53 .

[Recycled Human]

I'd like to express a dissenting vote for slower combat, the combat of da2 is endearing. I find myself regularly returning to DA2 specifically because of how rewarding the combat is. I love setting up the tactics, pausing to set up a cross class combo and then watching as my plans destroy all the enemies rapidly. If I have to hack away at an enemy at least let it happen quickly.

I'd love a harder nightmare mode. Please implement super secret impossible mode, it would be amazing!

Did anyone mention more party interactions, or the ability to talk to party members whenever?

More specializations would be nice. Awakenings brought it to six per class, da2's at half that...

I know there was something else, I'll check back if I remember XD

[Savber100]

I recently had a thought.

Won't it be cool if instead of ME, DA gets Kinect Support instead?

One thing why Kinect voice recognition doesn't work for Mass Effect is because the dialogue paraphrases don't really reflect the actual response. If DA goes for a "silent" protagonist and have the PLAYERS be their own voice as the system recognizes different tones of your voices etc. I think it might be the perfect compromise between those that want voiced and those that want silent. Although, this probably won't happen since some people will be unable to use it which is too bad because DA could be the breakout game for voice recognition in video games if Bioware does it right.

Modifié par Savber100, 21 juillet 2011 - 01:45 .

[Morroian]

Savber100 wrote...

I recently had a thought.

Won't it be cool if instead of ME, we have Kinect's support for DA?

One thing why Kinect voice recognition doesn't work for Mass Effect is because the dialogue paraphrases don't really reflect the actual response. If DA goes for a "silent" protagonist and have the PLAYERS be their own voice as the system recognizes different tones of your voices etc. I think it might be the perfect compromise between those that want voiced and those that want silent. Although, this probably won't happen since some people will be unable to use it which is too bad because DA could be the breakout game for voice recognition in video games if Bioware does it right.

If Kinect could do that it would be very cool, and I agree it would be a way to reconcile the 2 approaches.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

No, I don't agree with that unfortunately, Savber100. In the end, it's not really any different from the toggle.

I'm okay with the toggle as a good compromise, but it brings up another issue with how BioWare presents it's dialog. Specifically, in the form of cinematics, where the characters are acting out a scene. Having a mute protagonist really detracts from it's impact, hence people not liking their "mute" and "blank" Wardens.

Now, compare that to your average Bethesda game where they employ the talking heads approach, the issue of a silent protagonist is much less of an issue because dialog isn't presented in a cinematic manner with actors, it's presented in a much more abstract way, where you as the player is put into the eyes of the character and talk directly with the NPCs. Dialog becomes a back and forth activity between the player and the NPC, and not a scene from cinema or TV. There's some differences in how this all affects player expectations.

Would say, Oblivion/Fallout3/FalloutNV have benefitted from a voiced protagonist?

Most people would say "not really", it doesn't add much to the experience. Because the way dialog and interactions is presented, we are not watching a scene with actors, we are watching a back and forth between the player character and NPC. There's no expectation for the player character to act out the scene, nor is there any expectation for NPCs to act out the scene, hence, there's no real value to adding a voice to the protagonist. You could even make the argument that NPCs don't need to be all voiced in such an environment. Morrowind v Oblivion.

This all does relate back to the concept of defined protagonist and an open one, because an open one is one that is defined by the player, not the game/developer. So, an open protagonist is less inclined to act out scenes without player input. There is where the complaints of a blank, mute and static Warden originate from. Your Warden was not an actor, because (s)he was defined by the player, unlike Shepard or Hawke. But if you're going to display all of your interaction and dialog in the form of cinematics, you'll just look like one crappy actor instead.

Now, I'm not going to convince BioWare out of it's cinematic direction. They've been moving in this direction since KotOR.

I would be happiest with a 3rd person or isometric view with dialog that doesn't involve cinematics at every turn, simple textboxes with semi-voiced NPCs ala "older games" are fine with me. But I suspect I'm in the minority here. I'm also interested to see how Skyrim's "free-flowing" dialog system will work.

But really, this comes down to perspective and the core reasons why certain features are loved/hated by people.

I think that a toggle or the Kinect option would be perfectly fine for me but it addresses the symptom, not the underlying core issue.

edit: On second thought, maybe it is a good half way point. It doesn't really address the issue (as noted above), but it's a pretty big band-aid.

If they somehow get Kinect to get players to LARP out their characters in cutscenes...

I wouldn't exactly be thrilled at the prospect, but it's something to think about.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 21 juillet 2011 - 09:05 .

[KLUME777]

mrcrusty wrote...

*snip*

Im playing Morrowind currently now for the first time. The silent NPC's are so much better than Oblivions'. It allows so much more dephth and exploration, plus its much more dynamic. When i first played Oblivion, it thought Bethesda were pretty bad writers, but Morrowind is proving that wrong. Granted, the NPC interaction was much better in Fallout 3 than Oblivion, but the Morrowind system is so much better. 

And your completely right about the NPC's not needing voices (in Beth games). I didn't feel like i was playing a "dated" game at all while talking to Morrowind NPC's, i was fully immersed, no setback whatsoever - while Oblivion on the other hand, feels very uninspiring, and lacking.



Note though, i do absolutely love Oblivion, with hundreds of hours, and i play the unmodded console version.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Morrowind was probably the last popular RPG to use the old keyword system instead of an actual dialog structure. Made them more wiki-esque, but if you're playing games for a game and not a movie, there's nothing wrong with it. As you mentioned, it does lend itself to having characters with more depth if mostly unvoiced (they can say more), even if the delivery isn't as "cinematic" or "realistic".

I'd say that voiced/unvoiced NPCs entirely depends on the quality of the writing and the quality of the voices. On one end, you get the Morrowind/Oblivion contrast, but on the other hand, there are games like Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines which imo, has the best overall voice acting in an RPG outside of BioWare, and is among the best even if you include BioWare works.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 21 juillet 2011 - 11:03 .

[csfteeeer]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

sycophanticchallenger wrote...

3 words: Silent ****ing protagonist.

Thank you.

3 better words: ****ing voice toggle.

I Don't see how this would work.

[Shadow6773]

1. Want to be able to customize amor(companion and mine). Would appreciate a toggle feature if I want to see a default companion appearance or equipt armor appearance.

2. Want skills back, traps, speech, exct. Would like the strategy slot to allow me to plan out an extra companion action as each one as added when paused. The aility to plan a few moves ahead for each companion does have a staong apeal to me strategically as combat is so fast and hard to do manually now. It will allow the game to be played as pause and play or real time.

3. Fix inventory. DAO had a good amount of weapons and items DA2 has very few and I was more likely to find "torn pants" then any useful loot. The fact that my inventory has an overflowing "junk" tab is ludicrous. If you want to simplify might as well have my character be smart enough to only "find" worthwhile items, not near worthless junk.

4. While DAO's crafting system was a joke...DA2 is even worse. Give us something more in depth. Being able to craft weapons or armor would be great as well as imbue weapons with more abilities.

5. Want to be able to talk to my companions whenever I want, not just plot based. Need that back on par with DAO. Don't care if the protagonist is voiced or not as long as I can get that amount of content. With that in mind I am not a fan of the limited ME dialog wheel either.

6. Would like a coherant story with goals for me to complete, to often I found myself running around with no idea of an overarching plot/goal and with to little to do in between. At least if there was more interactivity with the city it would have been fun to wander aimlessly.

7. Want more reactivity from my choices and the ability to actually sway the direction of the story, Basically I want what was promised with DA2, to determine my rise to power, hopefully through cunning and strength. Not show how inept I am to sway people and choose direction in the game. It should have been easy to build into the framed narrative.. to at least give the illusion of choice in the game on a few occasions. Sadly, it was not put into play.

8. I hate to ask for streamlining anywhere.. However, having limited choice in healing, for example, make me wish some of the magic choices for mages were the same when it came to useful abilities like the healing branch. I would like to be able to choose my magic user by preference, not by limited skill availbility. Many of the other magic user branches were the same, why that one was not universal is a mystery to me.

9. Blah blah blah, spawning mobs, blah blah blah, recycled maps, blah blah, stuck in one city..blah blah common complaints. Fix them.

[Redcoat]

Well, the glib response to this thread would be "put back in all the things they indiscriminately yanked out of Origins," but that isn't very helpful. So, if I had to pick one (well, two, I guess) things I want to see in the next installment...

Non-combat skills and stats affecting many things OUTSIDE of combat. Non-combat skills such as Persuasion, Herbalism, Poison Making, or Survival must be brought back and made much more relevant to the game. Likewise, character stats, skills, and attributes need to mean more, MUCH more than how well your character makes things go from "living" to "dead." The first Fallout game is an exceptional example of this. Even in DA:O, a character with a high Cunning attribute gets additional conversation options. There was one instance where, after my Warden sacrificed Isolde, Alistair proceeded to chew her out at camp. Now, if my cunning skill is high enough, you can say something to the effect of, "This about you and the Arl, and not me at all" which completely takes the wind out of his sails. That was a wonderful moment, and there ought to be more things like that.

If DA3 is just going to be focusing on battles, on fighting, on constant ACTION ACTION ACTION, then I really have little interest in it.