56 réponses à ce sujet

[deth_monkey69]

I know it's not the most efficient melee build, but I want to build a ranger that dual wields great swords, and so far I have two main build options. The only thing I'm really sure about is the 4 RDD so I don't have to spend as many feats on great strength, and I think ranger is the easiest way to dual wield greatswords since otherwise I'd need a ton of dex to get the two weapon feats, and that makes the greatswords str to damage bonus too weak. If there's a different or better way to dual wield great swords that I'm missing I'll be happy to try it also,  This is the first build I've made myself, the rest I've either copied or tweaked existing ones, so if there's any glaring mistakes or omissions let me know.  I'm at level 7 now(the first 17 levels are the same for either build) and I'm not having that hard of a time hitting stuff, except for the lizardmen chief, and even then I just unequipped one greatsword and took him down.

This first one only has greater two handed fighting, but has 10 frenzied berserker with all the frenzy, cleave and power attack bonuses that come with it. I'm not sure my AB is going to be high enough to use them(the supreme power attack especially) and actually hit anything though.

wood elf(11 Ranger, 1 Bard, 6 RDD, 10 FB, 2 fight)
Str20 dex13(+1 early makes 14) con14 Int6 wis11 cha8 
1 R Luck of heroes favored enemy human 
2 R free two wpn
3 R Monkey grip, free toughness
4 R +dex
5 R undead favored enemy
6 R WPN focus greatsword, free imprvd two wpn
7 R spell blades of fire
8 R +str 
9 R free evasion,pwr attk
10 R favored enemy construct, spell barkskin
11 R free Grt two wpn save 5 skill points for intimidate
12 F cleave, +str, bonus feat improved crit
(RDD req lore 8, 1 bard)
13 Bard
14 RDD 
15 RDD free +2 str, Grt Cleave
16 RDD +str
17 RDD free +2 str
(FB req 6 AB, non lawful, cleave, grt cleave, pwr attk), 
skills for FB surival, intimidate
18 FB Free frenzy, free toughness, imprvd pwr attk, 
19 FB free supreme cleave
20 FB +str
21 FB free deathless frenzy, dodge 
22 F epic toughness
23 F improved crit, armor skin free feat
24 FB free enhanced pwr attk +str
25 FB epic prowess
26 FB 
27 FB improved evasion 
28 FB +str(str30 now)
29 FB free grt frenzy, epic resilience
30 FB free supreme pwr attk

This second one has a lot more ranger, so I'll have more spells(I'll use a +3 wis item to access them, and use no save/harmless stuff), perfect two weapon fighting, a better animal companion, more favored enemies, bane of enemies, and I think a higher AB because of more levels in one high AB class(I think that's how it works right?). It has two more fighter levels too, so it has one more feat. Right now I'm leaning towards this one.

alternative (21 ranger, 1 bard, 4RDD, 4 fighter)
1 R Luck of heroes, favored enemy human
2 R free two wpn
3 R Monkey grip
4 R +dex
5 R undead favored enemy
6 R WPN focus greatsword, free imprvd two wpn
7 R spell blades of fire
8 R +str 
9 R free evasion,pwr attk
10 R favored enemy construct, spell barkskin
11 R free Grt two wpn save 5 skill points for intimidate
12 F cleave, +str, bonus feat improved crit
(RDD req lore 8, 1 bard)
13 Bard
14 RDD free +2 str 
15 RDD Grt Cleave
16 RDD +str
17 RDD free +2 str
18 R dodge
19 R
20 R +str
21 F imprvd pwr attk, bonus feat epic toughness
22 R favored enemy outsider
23 R dinosaur companion
24 R +str
25 R epic prowess
26 R 
27 R armor skin, favored enemy elemental
28 R +str(str 30 now)free perfect two wpn
29 F bane of enemies greatsword
30 F epic resilience

I could also swap out improved power attack for improved evasion. I'm not sure I'll use improved power attack that much because of the -AB, but if I have good enough AB I'll want that over improved evasion I think, or maybe even improved evasion over epic relilience or epic prowess if I can hit things esaily.

[deth_monkey69]

Well I tried building my guy in the character builder posted here, but ran into problems at level 21. I couldn't pick epic toughness. Is this because I'm becoming level 21 and am no already? I can swap it with power critcial and replace another ferat with epic toughness anyway, just curious.

Modifié par deth_monkey69, 14 juillet 2011 - 02:29 .

[Arkalezth]

deth_monkey69 wrote...
If there's a different or better way to dual wield great swords

There's no good way.

[Mysstic1]

Your first build has five classes, so it would be impossible to do anyway.

For the second build, to help with the AB while dual-wielding great swords, you could bring a bard with you. Aura of Courage inspiration + Heroism spells would more than offset the AB penalties. In the OC you can take Grobnar along with you. In MotB you can install a mod to let you re-level one of your companions as a bard rather than their initial class.

[Arkalezth]

Or just use smaller weapons.

[deth_monkey69]

Arkalezth wrote...

Or just use smaller weapons.

I guess you're right, I've tried  tried tweaking it a bunch, I give up.  I will use smaller weapons, but only slightly smaller(bastard swords).  My Ab should be 35 while frenzied, which I plan to be basically all the time.  One thing confusing me is it says my divine spell level is 3, but according to nwn2wiki, I should only have 1 spell per day of levels 1 and 2.    Do I have my terms mixed up?
Here it is. 
http://nwn2db.com/bu...69644&version=1

Modifié par deth_monkey69, 15 juillet 2011 - 05:59 .

[Arkalezth]

At level 11 you have 0 spells per day (0 is different than -). That means that you will be able to cast 3rd level spells if you have a good Wisdom score.

The build itself...it's not very good, but it should work in the OC. Change that last fighter level for anything else, though. First rule when building fighters: always take even levels in that class (except a single level, that works too).

Modifié par Arkalezth, 15 juillet 2011 - 06:17 .

[deth_monkey69]

 Ah gotcha, sneaky zero.  Yeah I know it's not gonna be incredible but I want something weird, it's between this and a wizard/barb build.  For my last level I'm between barbarian and nw9.  It'll be offline only so nw9 might not be that great, I think I'd like the movement speed increase from barb.  I probably won't use rage becasue of the 12 ability cap.


Here's my wiz/barbarian build.  The basic theory is to enter rage so I have some decent damage from my strength, while still having perfect two weapon fighting and a lot of attacks, using buffs to keep my ab up.  I used a wizard/fighter template guide to help me get the idea and feat order down.  It may be rough AB wise till I get to level 11 and get tenser's transformation, but after that I can use it and should have pretty good AB, plus I can extend spell it at level 14 so it should have some nice duration.  Until then I can use no save spells and stuff like that to be useful still. Plus I can persistent spell haste at level 19, along with tensers, greater rage and keen edge(I can cast that before I fight, the duration will be long) I should be dealing some good damage.  I know a fighter wizard would be more effective overall, but I want an unusual build.  Hopefully this one is decent enough.

Edit: forgot the build link. http://nwn2db.com/bu...69723&version=1, also forgot to change the race when I changed to barb.  Crap.  now it's a drow.  I hate that xp penalty though.

Modifié par deth_monkey69, 15 juillet 2011 - 07:55 .

[The Fred]

I made a dual-greataxe-wielding dwarf build after seeing another such one. It wasn't great, but then it's not going to be if you're dual-wielding oversized weapons. Greatswords actually work just the same as (but are in fact marginally better than) greataxes so you could do something like that. I'd link it here but nwn2db seems to be down atm. I used Ranger (6 levels, IIRC) for the TWF feats and two levels of NW9 just to fill up the 20 (and two of Divine Champion, which is another decent filler class with some bonus feats) but relied on Dwarven Defender as my main class, so you'd probably want something different. It was also a 20-level build, but it got an AB of 25 dual-wielding I think (don't think that included the Monkey Grip penalty and whatnot, though), which is OK for that level.

EDIT: Point being, it's doable if not all that well.

Modifié par The Fred, 15 juillet 2011 - 09:37 .

[deth_monkey69]

The Fred wrote...

I made a dual-greataxe-wielding dwarf build after seeing another such one. It wasn't great, but then it's not going to be if you're dual-wielding oversized weapons. Greatswords actually work just the same as (but are in fact marginally better than) greataxes so you could do something like that. I'd link it here but nwn2db seems to be down atm. I used Ranger (6 levels, IIRC) for the TWF feats and two levels of NW9 just to fill up the 20 (and two of Divine Champion, which is another decent filler class with some bonus feats) but relied on Dwarven Defender as my main class, so you'd probably want something different. It was also a 20-level build, but it got an AB of 25 dual-wielding I think (don't think that included the Monkey Grip penalty and whatnot, though), which is OK for that level.

EDIT: Point being, it's doable if not all that well.

I may still toy with it later, but I'm satisfied with the bastardsword one.  My goal wasn't just to dual wield giant weapons, but to do so while frenzied and stuff like that.  Only taking 6 ranger is interesting though.  I'm assuming you had a lot fewer attacks than mine but at a much much higher AB.  Maybe I'll try out a ranger 6/fighter14/frenzied berserker10 later.  I'd have a crapload of feats and could easily get epic weapon focus + a lot of stuff to boost my AC to make up for the light armor.  I'm trying my wizard barbarian builda right now.  I can't believe I forgot about true strike.  I'll have to prioritize persistent spell big time so I'll have a massive AB.  Beautiful, at level 15 I'll have a constant +20 ab bonus.  

Modifié par deth_monkey69, 15 juillet 2011 - 10:18 .

[Mysstic1]

I don't think True Strike can be persisted. If you're relying on that to take place for your build you might want to change things up.

[deth_monkey69]

 Damn your right, that sucks.  Eh, I'll just tweak my older wizard/fighter build, without a persistent ab buff I'll need epic weapon focus for sure.  I was getting tired of the drow xp penalty anyway, -1 from the genasi isn't so bad, but being that low level for that long is painful as a drow.
Wizard fighter is still pretty different I guess.  I might as well post it, see if you guys have any ideas for tweaking it.  It's got more AB(40) and HP(306) than most of the other fighter/wizard classes I found, but a little less caster level(only 21) and AC(23).  I still have level 9 spells though(I'll get a +int item to cast them, my int is only 18), and vampiric feast, unless one fo the other epic spells is better.  Vampiric feat seemed to suit a fighter wizard best since I'll be in the thick of things more.  

BAB 27(including persisted haste), 7 attacks for main hand 6 for off hand ranging from 40AB-to10(still indcluding haste, the 10 being the haste atack, it'll subtract 5 from that one too right?, also does the -4 Ab from two weapon still apply after perfect two weapon?, I didn't include them if it does).  

Before it had 1 palemaster and two more fighter, but I didn't really have any feats I wanted/needed(I just threw power critical on) so I put in two barb and swapped out PM for another wiz.  It bumbed my BAB up one and gave me uncanny dodge, which seemed more important than power critical and two AC.  Plus I can rage again, though not as well without greater rage and extend rage.

Edit:  I'm so used to working with prestige classes I forgot about the xp penalties for base classes.  Bleh, back to the original PM build.  I'll take two weapon defense I guess so my AC is better.  I really wanted uncanny dodge too.

nwn2db.com/build.php

Modifié par deth_monkey69, 16 juillet 2011 - 08:14 .

[The Fred]

deth_monkey69 wrote...
Only taking 6 ranger is interesting though.  I'm assuming you had a lot fewer attacks than mine but at a much much higher AB.

Mine was a 20-level build, so there wasn't a lot of space to take Ranger 11. Ranger 6 is the previous TWF breakpoint, just means you don't get that extra off-hand attack. The AB actually worked out about the same because all the classes were max-AB ones (your dual-bastard sword build actually had a higher AB due to more Str), I just got Dwarven Defender features and whatnot instead.

For reference here is the build, it's not actually very good but going for the dwarf flavour with dual greataxes kinda precludes a truly effective build.

A wizard gish build is a whole different kettle of fish, though.

[deth_monkey69]

The Fred wrote...

deth_monkey69 wrote...
Only taking 6 ranger is interesting though.  I'm assuming you had a lot fewer attacks than mine but at a much much higher AB.

Mine was a 20-level build, so there wasn't a lot of space to take Ranger 11. Ranger 6 is the previous TWF breakpoint, just means you don't get that extra off-hand attack. The AB actually worked out about the same because all the classes were max-AB ones (your dual-bastard sword build actually had a higher AB due to more Str), I just got Dwarven Defender features and whatnot instead.

For reference here is the build, it's not actually very good but going for the dwarf flavour with dual greataxes kinda precludes a truly effective build.

A wizard gish build is a whole different kettle of fish, though.

Yeah my AB's actually aren't that bad especially while berserking, which I plan to constantly.  My final ABs, including penalties and frenzy str bonus, are 44 44 39 34 29 23 19(the extra 44 from frenzying), off hand 44 39 34, my ac will be 8 before armor though lol.  I have 450 hp, but I'll still be fragile.  Glass cannon!

What's gish?  I made one working in frenzied berserker, it's strange, and even more fragile than the dual bastard sword user.  AB is actually one better than my wizard fighter build, I have one more attack with each hand, and I'll do some pretty good damage with 14 bas strength plus the 6 from frenzy and I'll be hitting with str 20.  My AC will be an awful 18 while frenzied though though.  I still had enough skill to get some open lock, disable device, and search.

nwn2db.com/build.php
.

Modifié par deth_monkey69, 16 juillet 2011 - 05:24 .

[Arkalezth]

Frenzy isn't the best ability of FBs actually. FB is good for Supreme Cleave and Enhanced Power Attack. The latter is specially powerful when two-handing a weapon, so a FB dual-wielder isn't a particularly good combination.

[deth_monkey69]

Arkalezth wrote...

Frenzy isn't the best ability of FBs actually. FB is good for Supreme Cleave and Enhanced Power Attack. The latter is specially powerful when two-handing a weapon, so a FB dual-wielder isn't a particularly good combination.

I only have two FB anyway, mostly just for supreme cleave, that plus all my attacks should make a whirlwind of death.  But I'll frenzy a lot too for a good damage bonus from the strength.  This the alternative.  nwn2db.com/build.php

I like it too but it's not weird enough.  Plus with the FB build I get one more attack with each hand(only at +12 Ab though), plus a bonus attack from frenzy at my highest AB, so I have two more attacks(the other buld will have 1 from persistent haste, which both will have but you don't get both attacks from frenzy and haste, but I'll want the 1 AB haste brings still I think), and I have higher strength for more damage, I can use power atttack, and supreme cleave shoud be awesome for destroying whole crowds.  I lose my epic spell though, and have 4 less AC(8when frenzied), and almost 100 less HP too. 

Tough decision.  Both are pretty much the same up till level 6 anyway though, and I'm only at level 3 right now so I have some time.

[Arkalezth]

deth_monkey69 wrote...

it's not weird enough.

I don't know what to reply to that.

If you want Haste, or any other spell, you can use companions for that. No need to do it all yourself, it's a party based game.

[deth_monkey69]

Arkalezth wrote...

deth_monkey69 wrote...

it's not weird enough.

I don't know what to reply to that.

If you want Haste, or any other spell, you can use companions for that. No need to do it all yourself, it's a party based game.

I don't want a normal build, it needs to be a little weird and unusual, I thought I'd made that clear by now with my weird combos lol.  I suppose that's true about the team thing, I coud swap out persistent and extend, but I might want to play online co op with this guy eventually, and not have to have a caster buff me.  Though I suppose for that I'd be better off with a more conventional build like my wizard fighter anyway. 

The synergy for my FB wizard build isn't great I know considering my strength isn't huge, and I'm using small weapons, but it's wierd and still functional right?  My ABs, number of attacks, attributes and caster level seem good enough, my AC and HPs are kinda weak but with mage armor and bark and stone skin with their long durations I should be okay there right?  Basically is this doomed to failure like the greatswords build and the wiz barb build, or is it good enough to be useful while still being unique? 

Edit:  Is exend spell worth it if I'm not going to get persistent?  I forgot I didn't add extend rage so that takes the spot of persistent, am I better off with empower instead?  I think I may just keep extendsince with my caster level at 21 and extend spell I'll be good.  The only one that isn't 10 min/level or better is haste, but even then it would be 21 rounds, 42 with extend.  Even if that wears off I only lose 1AC andf 1AB since my frenzy attack gets used instead of a haste one, and by round 42 the battle should be long over lol.  I think I'm just gonna stick with extend.

The duration on NWN2 wiki are a little confusing, some have two different durations which I figured was for the different classes that cast it, but then I saw shield with just wizard/sorc and two durations saying 1 minute/level and one saying 10 rounds/level.  Unless 10 rounds is one minute, but that doesn't seem right.

Modifié par deth_monkey69, 17 juillet 2011 - 06:38 .

[Arkalezth]

Extend is good. Play what you want, the OC is easy enough that it can be completed by just about every "build".

[The Fred]

deth_monkey69 wrote...
What's gish?

Sorry, a "gish" is a nickname (I think from PnP) for a Wizard/Fighter type cross who is capable of using spells offensively as well as melee combat, rather than just buffing.

deth_monkey69 wrote...
Unless 10 rounds is one minute, but that doesn't seem right.

That is indeed the case. A round is 6 seconds, so 10 of these equals one real-time minute. When it talks about hours, though, it means in-game hours, which by default (i.e. in the OC) are 2 real-time minutes each (though a lot of builders change this, I think 4 is considered to be a good number and it's what I'm using).

A note on your second build: Admittedly, I'm not much of a one for min/maxing, but it seems to me that it'd be worth losing a point to your Dex or Int modifier to bump your Con by 4 points or however many it is. Yes Dex is your prime stat, but the difference in HP between those builds is nearly 100, which is a lot to gain for one AB and one AC. Even high-level casters won't be taking off that much HP in a round, so in a purely "how-much-damage-can-I-do-before-I-die" comparison, the extra Con is probably worth it for getting at least one extra round of attacks in before you die (hopefully you won't die, but that Con could make the difference).

[Haplose]

Hmm.. in my opinion the first build gets it's extra offhand attacks too late into the build's life. Second offhand attack at level 22? Most games are long over by this time. You're much better off using one strong weapon in this case (probably not Dex-based then). Plus the damage per hit will be very low too. And Frenzy is hardly of any help.

The second build... Well it does next-to-no damage. Actually literally no damage against any damage reduction. This could be somewhat remedied by taking Combat Insight at level 21, but you'd need Combat Expertise for that. Plus you'd still do no damage through the initial 20 levels (where most games take place).

You need some damage source IMVHO. Either good Strength, Swashbuckler's Insightfull Strike, Sneak Attacks, Champion of the Wild's Elegant Strike (need Kaedrins), maybe (Epic) Divine Might (but not for this build) or some other source.

Otherwise the fights will last forever and it will feel incredibly weak. Well overpowered enchanted weapons could compensate, I suppose. But then it's not the build's power, but item's power that counts.

[The Fred]

The first build could use some feat re-arrangement but it does at least have 14 Str and Power Attack, so it should be doing more damage than the second. That said, this is for the OC/MotB, so overpowered weapon enhancements are the order of the day. A potential ~10 extra points from Str do make something of a difference, though. Personally I favour Swashbuckler for Wizard gish builds thanks to the Int damage boost, but that doesn't always work.

[Haplose]

It also has Wepon Focus: Shortsword and you can't Power Attack with that (or any other finessable weapon that will take advantage of this high Dex).

[deth_monkey69]

The Fred wrote...

The first build could use some feat re-arrangement but it does at least have 14 Str and Power Attack, so it should be doing more damage than the second. That said, this is for the OC/MotB, so overpowered weapon enhancements are the order of the day. A potential ~10 extra points from Str do make something of a difference, though. Personally I favour Swashbuckler for Wizard gish builds thanks to the Int damage boost, but that doesn't always work.

I never considered swashbuckler.  The damage thing confuses me though, how can I do no damage?  What's the purpose of dex dual wielding if if does no damage?  Or do all dex dual wielders use some sort of damage boost like swashbucklers int thing?  It seems like for this build maybe maxing my int would be better, or getting 20 int at least and settling for less dex, like 26 or 28 final.  Then it would be more of a caster I suppose then without the big dex AB bonus. 

It seems like the only useful levels of swashbuckler are odd ones until 8 and 10, how many would you recommend, just the three for finnesse and the int strike?  I need 21 caster level obviously, I'll use levels of eld definitely but from there it can be any combo of wizard or palemaster to get to 21.  7 Pm for AC, immunities and 4 caster level, 10 eld duh, 5 wizard for the binus feat and 22 caster level including prac caster, then 8 swashbuckler for improved flanking.  I'll have to wait to actually put it into the builder in a few hours though.

Well here's the best I got.  I tried rearranging it so I wouldn't have an xp penalty but I couldn't do it without messing up vampiric feast becasue of my caster level or epic weapon focus because it hasto be taken as a bonus feat on 8 fighter.  If one of you can get it worming sweet, if not no biggie.  The 4th swashbuckler is for the 6th attack on each hand.  http://nwn2db.com/bu...69979&version=1

Modifié par deth_monkey69, 17 juillet 2011 - 06:28 .

[Haplose]

Yes, most dexers use some kind of damage boost. Either that or they rely solely on enchanted weapons to do their damage. That can work ok in the OC, because you get access to some powerfulI magical items (and particularly in MotB the weapon enchantments are really over-the-top).
But I personally don't like this approach. For one, there are modules with only lower levels of magical gear available and such a build would be weak in there. But more importantly, I don't like my items doing all the work for me. I prefer a build that is capable on it's own.

I guess sneak (or death) attacks are by far the most common of bonus damage for Dex-based characters. For Gish-type characters Swashbucker's Insightfull Strike can be very usefull, as noticed.
Though the most classic Gish builds simply focus on Strength to do damage. Many get Automatic Still Spell I-III in the epic levels to be able to cast in full armor and shield without issues.

I happen to like the Swashie dual-wielder Gish characters, even though they might not be the strongest ones. A major advantage is that while Strength damage bonus gets cut in half for offhand attacks, Int damage bonus is applied in full for both hands. And it's even multiplied on critical hits, even though it probably shouldn't be. The major weakness of Insightfull Strike (and Sneak/Death attacks) are the enemies with immunity to Critical Hits - which are also immune to this bonus damage. Sadly you will meet many of those in both official campaigns. Well, but that's what you got offensive spells for, right?

In general I don't advise going beyond level 3 with Swashbuckler. Maybe some more for an exotic Swashbuckler/Rogue multiclass with Kaedrin's Daring Outlaw feat, but that's it. Other classes generally offer more beyond that 3rd level.
Of course, as Swashie is a base class, you have to be vary of Multiclassing penalty. Your build seems to get it at level 9. You either need to take the 4th Swashie level before 5th Wizard (and not advance Wizard any more - at least till you're ready to eat the penalty, probably late in epics) or pick a race with Favoured class: Wizard or Any and limit Fighter levels to 4 - again at least till you're ready to handle the penalty.

I think you're getting Persistant Spell too early. In general it is of little use before level 9 spells and Persistant Haste. And your build cannot cast it before level 29. Might not be worth getting at all, particularly if you will be using any mage companions. Improved Critical on the other hand could be usefull much sooner. Two-Weapon Defence is a pretty weak feat choice, I'd take Practiced Caster earlier in it's place. It will be a pretty major difference if that Shield/Mage Armor/Cat's Grace/Fox' Cunning of yours last 3 or 7 turns/hours. Might be the difference between your spells being useless/usefull at this point.
And I personally would pick a spell school specialization. That +1 spell slot per spell level is huge, particularly for a build like that, that doesn't have many slots in the first place. Necromancer is a good pick, if I remember correctly (anyway, the one with opposing school Divination).