56 réponses à ce sujet

[deth_monkey69]

Huh, I didn't notice the whole still spell thing. Maybe I'll re investigate my sorc/eld/rdd/fighter build and work in heavy armor.

[Haplose]

Note that Still Spell is a bit of a pain before Automatic feats at epic levels.

But if you decide to go this way, Paladin or Blackguard offer some nice synergy with that Charisma and Strength and charisma bonus to saving throws and Divine Shield and the uber (Epic) Divine Might.

[deth_monkey69]

Haplose wrote...

Note that Still Spell is a bit of a pain before Automatic feats at epic levels.

But if you decide to go this way, Paladin or Blackguard offer some nice synergy with that Charisma and Strength and charisma bonus to saving throws and Divine Shield and the uber (Epic) Divine Might.

Not a big fan so far.  I probably just suck too much at building still, but all mine seem to come out way more caster than fighter with really bad ABs and higher caster levels, which seems to negate the whole casting in armor thing.  I think I like the swash/wizard more, it seems more fighty.  Even the ones I saw on the building site that other people made seemed kinda eh.  They all had really weak strength and just pretty good int/cha, plus my swash already has 26 ac.  The builds I saw wouldn't have been much better even with full plate and a heavy shield.

[Haplose]

That's because most of them use armor (and Divine Shield or Improved Combat Expertise) to boost their defences only and mostly ignore the physical offense - they got spells for that. Which is a viable strategy and this way they do get some of the toughest characters to kill. Really fullplate mages and Bards can be ridiculously difficult to bring down in melee.

[deth_monkey69]

Here's what I got.  nwn2db.com/build.php

Not huge on it, I think if I make a caster it's gonna be pure caster or dex fighter caster, but I may still use it in storm of zehir to give my party a tank along with my swash wiz, my dual bastard sword frenzier, and a pure caster.

[The Fred]

deth_monkey69 wrote...
The damage thing confuses me though, how can I do no damage?  What's the purpose of dex dual wielding if if does no damage?  Or do all dex dual wielders use some sort of damage boost like swashbucklers int thing?

I mainly suggested Swash 3 because you already have a decent Int for your Wizard spells. A Wizard/Swash/EK gish is pretty standard. It's far from necessary, though.

As Halapose says, Dex-based builds often use Sneak Attacks for damage, or something like Divine Might. Relying only on weapon enchantments isn't so great, though it works fine in the OC/MotB. There are some builds like Monk Flurry builds which are just designed to hit as often as possible, so whilst their base damage will be low, any bonuses from weapons will be multiplied up. Dex does give you the advantage of better ranged attacks (were you ever to use them) and more AC, which you need if you are a light-armour class, whereas Str is not so widely useful. That said, Dex-based builds do tend to struggle before Epic level because of the damage bonuses (playing a low-level Dex-based Monk, say, is tough, because you might be hard to hit and hitting back more often than everyone else, but doing only a couple of points of damage each time is really sad).

[Haplose]

deth_monkey69 wrote...

Here's what I got.  nwn2db.com/build.php

Not huge on it, I think if I make a caster it's gonna be pure caster or dex fighter caster, but I may still use it in storm of zehir to give my party a tank along with my swash wiz, my dual bastard sword frenzier, and a pure caster.

Well if you like those defensive caster builds...

But you're getting Divine Shield way too late IMO. It's a staple for this build.
Plus, like the other poster wrote, RDD doesn't really help, since it's physical attacks are poor anyway. Maybe a Sorc/Ek/BG/PM would do better?

[deth_monkey69]

Haplose wrote...

deth_monkey69 wrote...

Here's what I got.  nwn2db.com/build.php

Not huge on it, I think if I make a caster it's gonna be pure caster or dex fighter caster, but I may still use it in storm of zehir to give my party a tank along with my swash wiz, my dual bastard sword frenzier, and a pure caster.

Well if you like those defensive caster builds...

But you're getting Divine Shield way too late IMO. It's a staple for this build.
Plus, like the other poster wrote, RDD doesn't really help, since it's physical attacks are poor anyway. Maybe a Sorc/Ek/BG/PM would do better?

Eh I'm not gonna go any further with auto still spell I think, I think I like pure caster or melee/caster.  Divine might is cool though, I might try a sorc/fighter/bg or sorc/pally build using that and leaning more towards casting..  I like my swash/wizard build a lot still, even though it'll be a **** to level with 2 xp pentalties(1 from race 1 from wizard/swash being uneven).  The only way I could manage to get the penalty away either made vampiric feast not work due to caster level/spellcraft not being high enough, or epic wpn focus not work because level 8 of fighter has to fall before a a feat so I can get greater then epic.  But I'm still happy with it still since I have good AB, good AC, a melee damage bonus of +4 to 6 attacks each hand not including haste, a good caster level and an epic spell.  I'm not sure If I'm better off taking the 2 more dex or int at the end though.  The dex buys more 1 AC and AB, but that extra damage bonus could be nice.

I like my dual bastard sword guy too, but it's very much a glass cannon, and not very effective.  But weird and fun.

edit:  I lied.  I like this one.  I wish I could've gotten caster level 30 but I needed 4 paladin for divine shield.  Still not bad though.  I may make a pure caster buld with robes now to see which I like better.  Any reason why I couldn't select hellball instead of mass fowl or vampiric feast?  I think hellball would be better for this build but I didn't see it on the feat menu, only vampiric feast and mass fowl.  nwn2db.com/build.php

Modifié par deth_monkey69, 19 juillet 2011 - 05:57 .

[Haplose]

Yeah, the Swashbuckler is a pretty neat build I guess. But you should read the comments posted in your build. There's some good advice there. You should probably drop Two-Weapon Defence (this would allow you to pick Practiced Caster sooner). And definately go for Combat Insight in Epic.

Please note that +4 damage per attack is only +4 as long as your Int stays at base. If you buff your Int score with Fox' Cunning, it's +6. If you wear a +6 Int item, it becomes +7... with a +8 Int item, it's +8....

[deth_monkey69]

Nice I've seen a +2 int item early on in the campaign too. I tweaked it based on their thoughts, what do you think about it now?

[Arkalezth]

It's set as private, I think. I can't see it.

BTW, I couldn't read the entire thread, but I usually agree with Haplose on pretty much everything. So if I read it all, I'm guessing my advice would be similar to his.

Edit: There's an armor for casters in the OC, if you're an Eldritch Knight or have a high Use Magic Device. You can use it without need for Still Spell, and, while it won't be the absolute most powerful armor you can use, it should serve you well even in MotB.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 19 juillet 2011 - 05:06 .

[deth_monkey69]

Arkalezth wrote...

It's set as private, I think. I can't see it.

BTW, I couldn't read the entire thread, but I usually agree with Haplose on pretty much everything. So if I read it all, I'm guessing my advice would be similar to his.

Edit: There's an armor for casters in the OC, if you're an Eldritch Knight or have a high Use Magic Device. You can use it without need for Still Spell, and, while it won't be the absolute most powerful armor you can use, it should serve you well even in MotB.

Wierd I see it in public it's called swashbuckler wizard.  It's undergone a pretty decent transformation.  Now it's a drow which pushes the multicIass xp penalty way back, but it'll be a **** once it kicks in with the racial penalty plus the class penalty.  I was able to pick up combat insight, dropped twd, now use kukri's for the better crit range but retained epic weapo foces and vampirirc feast.  I will be an EK and the eldritch knight chain would be useful for when I'm lower level when my dex AC bonus is lower  Wouldn't it not allow my AC bonus from improved mage armor though?  I can cast it at level 10 too which I figure is a little earlier than when I'd be able to get the eldritch chain since it's like 90K iirc.  I'd have 12 AC that way instead or the 10 the chain would give, and I can find a nice robe too.  I'll see how early I can get it I suppose.

[Haplose]

Well, on the positive side, I think you can probably still reach level 30 in MotB, despite the penalty. I might be mistaken though. I seem to remember immediately hitting level 22 or 23 at the start of MotB and getting to level 30 somewhere 2/3 through the game.

Regarding EK chain, it should be good till you hit Dex bonus of roughly +8 (with items). Later on, it's robes for you. It will work well with (Improved) Mage Armor. You see, the (wrong) way these spells work is that they add Armor Enchancement bonus only, instead of a clean armor bonus. So they overlap with magical armor bonuses, but stack with base armor values.
EK chain is 4 base armor + 2 magical enchancement and allows for additional +4 AC from Dex. With Mage Armor this will be 4 (base)+4 (Mage Armor, which overlaps with +2 from magical armor enchancements) +4 (Dex). With Improved Mage Armor this will be: 4+6+4.

I'm still worried about your damage output vs undead in the OC. Kukuris are a bit better weapons then shortswords (due to their wide crit range), but at least shortswors have marginally better base damage and undead are immune to crits (and your swashbuckler tricks too) anyway
And sadly there are a ton of them in the OC. Well, once you get a nice pair of enchanted weapons, things will slowly start looking better, but you'll be badly outdamaged by brute types like Khelgar.
I would consider going more moderate way, instead of min-maxing here. Lowering Dex by 2 would give you 6 ability points, which you could use to bump Str to 14. This way you'd do some damage at least (and it stacks with Swashie Int damage bonus). Of course this is basically trading a tiny amount of end-game power for much smoother early gameplay. Hmm.. not only early... it's probably more then half of character life actually. And the entire OC. But the decision is up to you, depending on your preferences.

In either case, I'd definately prioritize Combat Insight to get it as soon as possible at epic levels. IMO it's more important then Perfect Two Weapon Fighting for this build. You could switch a Wizard and Fighter levels to be Fighter 4 at 21 and pick both Epic Prowess and Combat Insight simultaniously. After you get this feat, you're officially allowed to stop worring about your Str rating. Well except for encumbrance

Modifié par Haplose, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:45 .

[Arkalezth]

This? The link was wrong.

[Arkalezth]

Haplose wrote...

Well, on the positive side, I think you can probably still reach level 30 in MotB, despite the penalty. I might be mistaken though. I seem to remember immediately hitting level 22 or 23 at the start of MotB and getting to level 30 somewhere 2/3 through the game.

When I played MotB, it wasn't with the same character as the OC, so I started at 18 (17 once, with a genasi), and still reached 30.

Regarding EK chain, it should be good till you hit Dex bonus of roughly +8 (with items). Later on, it's robes for you. It will work well with (Improved) Mage Armor.

True, I wasn't thinking about high DEX when I mentioned the EK chain.

I'm still worried about your damage output vs undead in the OC. Kukuris are a bit better weapons then shortswords (due to their wide crit range), but at least shortswors have marginally better base damage and undead are immune to crits (and your swashbuckler tricks too) anyway

A solution would be changing fighter for ranger, and take Improved FE:Undead.

[deth_monkey69]

Yeah that's the one Arkalezth, it messed up my two weapon fighting and weapon focus stuff though. The builder does weird stuff sometimes, but when I reselect perfect two weapon and epic weapon focus it fixes it. I really don't want to swap out fighter for ranger and lose my +4 AB from epic weapon focus.

My melee would be weak to start against undead, but can't I still fireball the crap out those zombies once I get my wizard levels going? Or do they have a bunch of spell resistance too? Plus I'll have kelgar with me and he's good at smashing zombies early on.

Ttaking the strength is interesting and tempting considering the trade off is only 1 AB and AC and I'd have more damage early and carrying space even when I hit 30, but if I take the strength it seems like a waste to not take cleave and great cleave, and as you said it'll be useless damage wise at level 30. I could switch out luck of heroes, extend and persist for power attack, cleave and great cleave. I know power attack will do nothing, and luck of heroes is pretty sweet, but cleave and great cleave could be cool with dual wielding. Would I still only get one attack per enemy with great cleave or would I get one with each hand?

Haplose wrote...

In either case, I'd definately prioritize
Combat Insight to get it as soon as possible at epic levels. IMO it's
more important then Perfect Two Weapon Fighting for this build. You
could switch a Wizard and Fighter levels to be Fighter 4 at 21 and pick
both Epic Prowess and Combat Insight simultaniously. After you get this
feat, you're officially allowed to stop worring about your Str rating.
Well except for encumbrance

Moving it up that far left me switching a feat spot used as a bonus fighter feast to a spot that needed persistetent spell so it didn't work.  I was able to move it up a few levels to 23 by switching great dex and perfect two weapon around
though.

Modifié par deth_monkey69, 20 juillet 2011 - 11:52 .

[deth_monkey69]

Haplose wrote...

In either case, I'd definately prioritize Combat Insight to get it as soon as possible at epic levels. IMO it's more important then Perfect Two Weapon Fighting for this build. You could switch a Wizard and Fighter levels to be Fighter 4 at 21 and pick both Epic Prowess and Combat Insight simultaniously. After you get this feat, you're officially allowed to stop worring about your Str rating. Well except for encumbrance

Moving it up that far left me switching a feat spot used as a bonus fighter feast to a spot that needed persistetent spell so it didn't work I was able to move it up a few levels to 23 by switching great dex and perfect two weapon around though.

double post, I thought this one didn't post since it didn't show up.

Modifié par deth_monkey69, 20 juillet 2011 - 11:53 .

[Haplose]

Yea, you can Fireball the zombies, sure. Thing is, there are rather many of their kin in the game.

I would skip Cleave on a not-really-feat-abundant dual-wielder. Especially that you cannot Power Attack with Light Weapons, so that's one entirely useless feat you have to take. And you only get 1 extra attack per kill. When you have 12 or 14 APR, that one extra attack is less important then if you have 6 APR.

Cleave is awesome for Supreme Cleaving Frenzied Berserkers. For Dex dual-wielders, not so much.

Modifié par Haplose, 21 juillet 2011 - 05:52 .

[deth_monkey69]

Haplose wrote...

Yea, you can Fireball the zombies, sure. Thing is, there are rather many of their kin in the game.

I would skip Cleave on a not-really-feat-abundant dual-wielder. Especially that you cannot Power Attack with Light Weapons, so that's one entirely useless feat you have to take. And you only get 1 extra attack per kill. When you have 12 or 14 APR, that one extra attack is less important then if you have 6 APR.

Cleave is awesome for Supreme Cleaving Frenzied Berserkers. For Dex dual-wielders, not so much.

I didn't really have much trouble with undead in the graveyard with my other wizard fighter build, and that one didn't have the insightful strike damage bonus.  Speaking of supreme cleaving frenzied berserkers, check out my 50 str build, any input there?  It seems like that one would be harder to mess up anyway.  The builder site is down right now but it's with my other builds, I'll link it later when I get home.

I'll just skip the strength then I think.  I cheated a bit and exported my character and restarted the OC so I'd be level 3 by the time the whole west harbor thing is over.  It was just too painful having like 10 HP and doing no damage and having no spells.  It should help a bit, since before level 5 I'm a melee fighter who does almost no damage, at level 6I'll start getting some spells and I'll have insightful strike so I'll be okay.

[deth_monkey69]

Does the builder have an issue with skill points? I'm at level 7 and have to alter my skill points because the builder told me I'd be getting 8 skill points(6 from int, 2 saved), but I'm actually getting 6. I'd like to plan my skills out ahead of time, but unless I can reliably get how many skill points I'l be receiving it'll be hard.

[Arkalezth]

The builder is right. Maybe you already spended the points for the next level and need to save 2 for that.

[deth_monkey69]

Arkalezth wrote...

The builder is right. Maybe you already spended the points for the next level and need to save 2 for that.

I don't think so, I've checked my skills and they all seem to match the builder.  Maybe I lost my 2 saved skill points when I exported my character?  Eh as long as I know how many I'll have is relaible now I can rework it.

[Haplose]

Did you check the adjusted skill levels or pure skill ranks?

[deth_monkey69]

Haplose wrote...

Did you check the adjusted skill levels or pure skill ranks?

Regular, I checked it level by level too not end skill totals.  I've followed my skill plan exactly as I had it, and I have the correct number for each skill.  The only thing I can figure is somehow I switched a level and took a cross class skill when I should've taken a class skill, or I lost them when I exported,  The former is very unlikely, I alt tabbed out to check what skills and how many I'd take each level, and I'm only taking like 5 at a time tops.  I've got it figured out now anyway, I lost one open lock, but eh, I'll have thieves tools and it'll stll be like 22 adjusted.  The only tricky part was switching it around so I still had 24 spellcraft before I needed vampiric feast.

[Arkalezth]

If you post it, so we can check it?

BTW, it's been 11 days since you started this thread. Shouldn't you start playing already?

Modifié par Arkalezth, 25 juillet 2011 - 09:42 .