1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Let it never be said I can't be offended on the behalf of Paragons everywhere. If there's one choice which seems to be a non-choice for the Paragons, a significant choice which makes no apparent difference... the Collector Base may well be that choice. Given all the post-ME2 side material, it's increasingly hard to justify destroying the base as anything but a petty 'stick it to TIM' gesture... and believe it or not, I want people to have other reasons avaiable for taking actions.



Was it to destroy the corrupt knowledge and secrets, to 'preserve the soul of our species'? 

Even the Shadow Broker intended to cross the relay and learn as much as possible... and the Reapers arrival will mean Reaper tech for everyone (if we survive). Paragon Shepard wasn't keeping the technology from people, just delaying it.



Was it to deny Cerberus any Reaper technology? 

Regardless of the decision, enough Reaper and Collector technology exists for Cerberus to craft its own Reaper-technology experiment: the effects of Retribution, and the Grayson experiments.



Was it to stop Cerberus from hurting other species with and for the technology inside? 

The upcoming comic Invasion features Cerberus unleashing a new creation from beyond the Omega 4 relay into the streets of Omega, a creation that may wipe out Aria herself.



Was it to stop Cerberus from indoctrinating itself?

Well, Mass Effect 3's E3 demos rather addressed how well that worked.



Was it because blown up Reaper technology is safe Reaper technology?

Well, given all of the above...



I'm annoyed, and I didn't even make this choice. You may be annoyed as well. And together, we'll be pair annoyed.

If the best justifications for destroying the Collector Base were to protect people from what was inside, and destroying it does not do that... was there still good reason to do so?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:02 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Giant space explosion.

That is all.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

So you could say "I told you so, and have your actions to prove it." Now you had no part in the negative events that transpire from Cerberus's doings.

I'd love to hear your Renegade choice version of this...

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:05 .

[l DryIce l]

 Destroying it does do "that". Honestly, we still don't know how big of an impact the Collector base is going to have in ME3. Saying, "well, look, Cerberus is indoctrinated anyway", is a very extreme way of looking at things. You don't know how more or less powerful Cerberus may be in ME3 depending on the status of the base. 

I didn't give TIM the base because I didn't trust him with using it. Does this mean that this will stop Cerberus from being powerful, or even using Reaper tech. No, but it does keep them from using the Reaper tech from the base. Again, we don't know how important the base is. We just have to wait. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I'd love to hear your Renegade choice version of this...[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

That depends entirely on the effects in ME3, of course...

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:08 .

[Dean_the_Young]

l DryIce l wrote...

 Destroying it does do "that". Honestly, we still don't know how big of an impact the Collector base is going to have in ME3. Saying, "well, look, Cerberus is indoctrinated anyway", is a very extreme way of looking at things. You don't know how more or less powerful Cerberus may be in ME3 depending on the status of the base. 

I didn't give TIM the base because I didn't trust him with using it. Does this mean that this will stop Cerberus from being powerful, or even using Reaper tech. No, but it does keep them from using the Reaper tech from the base. Again, we don't know how important the base is. We just have to wait. 

But now your choice isn't stopping him from misusing Reaper tech. You choice was never 'do I allow him or don't I': whichever you do, he gets The Tech (as shown in multiple official materials).

[nhsk]

For me it was a small piece of philosophy that BW taught me long ago, a quote from Baldurs Gate:

"He who fights with monsters should look to that he himself does not become a monster.. when you gaze long enough into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

And I don't trust humanity to use such technology wisely, neither Cerberus nor the Alliance.

Edit: Oh and Legion was kind enough to remind me about my Sovereign conversation in ME1 a mission earlier about multiple paths to a certain technological level - Giving the base to Cerberus would only further Reaper goals, any technology gained from Reapers can probably with no greater effort be shut down by Reapers.

Modifié par nhsk, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:14 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

You gave TIM the middle finger by blowing up the base.  And instead of researching the facility, they're researching the remains of it instead... likely setting back their developments farther than keeping the base would have.

You also have the added satisfaction and positive validation of seeing that Cerberus did not do anything beneficial with the base... along with even further satisfaction of knowing that since Cerberus is after you... "atleast they don't have the Collector base."
Paragon choice is still winning out here... if you hadn't noticed.


Those who kept the base found out they'd be going against Cerberus outside of the game's materials (story continuity break ftw)... while the Base destroyers knew they'd be enemies with Cerberus from the start. 

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:16 .

[VolusvsReaper]

It was so I could pick the "Shut Up" option while talking to the illusive man

[MrObnoxiousUK]

So allowing the collectors to fully construct a new reaper and let them destroy who knows how many human colonies uncontested and god knows how many humans turned into a Reaper energy drink.

The reapers are coming, we cannot prevent that,however the Collectors were a clear and present threat.The collectors were also developing strains of a potent virus to unleah on the various races too,if you had not intervened you would of had indoctrinated thralls going to various population centres and deploying the virus,probally timed to coincide with the Reaper invasion to cause maximum devastion and confusion.

Only a fool leaves a enemy stronghold at thier back while marching towards another enemy.Also if the base is intact it can be used as a stronghold for the Reapers to reequip and rearm,imagine the collector base base being used as the Reaper equivalent of Arcturus station.

Modifié par Douglas, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:21 .

[tobynator89]

It was a simple statement made by shepard. We. Do. Not. Trust. You. He's never trusted TIM, his motives or his agenda so he denies them resources once she has got what she wanted from them (getting rid of the collectors), proving that cerberus was a pawn for shepard, not the other way around.

The other choice basically proves the opposite.

Modifié par tobynator89, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:22 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

If it's a Paragon choice, you know that the game has got you covered... I wouldn't worry about it.

[Medhia Nox]

TIM was only one of several reasons.

1) The Collectors were tools of the Reapers.

They "Collect" DNA and put it through their juicer and create a "Proto-Reaper" (whether or not it would have been "finished" or placed into a giant cuttlefish ship isn't answered to my knowledge).

A) I saw no reason for the Reapers to simply leave a cache of Reaper tech that had nothing to do with making juice out of humans. All the tech we've obtained so far (which presumably is only the Thanix Cannon) - was taken from Sovereign - not anything related to the Collectors.

The Collector base was a giant hive constructed to house Prothean-Collector drones. The entire ship is covered in "cocoons" and we have no reason to believe that the basic amenities essential to human (or alien) habitation are even in place. We know only that it has an atmosphere. To become operational - places to store and prepare food, sleeping quarters, a bridge (we're not even sure how the Collector ship is piloted) - amongst other things, would have to be put in place.

2) Retrofitting the Collector base would take vast amounts of resources - and more importantly, manpower.

The Reapers are coming - and yes, I can let TIM devote his entire organization to trying to figure out how to operate their galactic juicer and if it will even be any help at all. OR - I can destroy the Reaper base and have TIM devote his time to combating the Reapers directly.

This is neither pragmatic - nor idealistic - it is simply a call to make. Wasting time with the Collector ship might yield nothing (or worse, Indoctrination) - or, it might be a rousing success. There's no margin for error - but a choice needed to be made - I felt that I've already battled the Reapers so far without a giant asteroid juicer, so the gamble wasn't worth the risk.

3) Protecting the Juicer until we could discover the ancient secrets the Reapers foolishly left on board their automated asteroid ship.

The Reapers know where the Collector ship is - and if they don't send one of their own to retrieve it, they'll send Geth, or husks, or whatever. I can't waste a fleet, and ground troops, protecting something that may - or may not - yield results. There are entire homeworlds out there that need these soldiers. Earth being one of them - and if TIM really wants to save Earth, he might want to consider not being a chronic gambler.

4) The Reapers are "supposed" to be intelligent.

If I were going to build a juicer manned by indoctrinated drone Ex-Protheans... I would have foreseen the possibility of it being taken.

IF I were going to put super secret caches of uber-tech on board in the off chance that an organic race would land and steal it so that they might beat me... I would put a self-destruct option on the Juicer.

Furthermore - as Shepard, being a lowly organic and thinking of these things... then I have to ask. If there's ANYTHING worth taking on the Juicer... "why" are the Reapers just letting me have it? How many "oversights" can the Reapers make before one of them becomes intentional.

I believe the Reapers are allowing us to have the Collector base - it has nothing to do with moral good or evil... it has to do with a "species" of Ancient Uber-Cuttlefish Spaceship Monsters thinking of various contingencies... in this case, organic greed or desperation.

====

So, for all these reasons that are about to be refuted by everyone who made the choice to keep it. I blew up the Juicer... err... Collector Base.

Pissing TIM off was just an added bonus.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:31 .

[Abispa]

When I played LotSB, I did so AFTER the suicide mission, so I got to hear the SB say that he was going to kill the squad, then use the IFF in the Normandy to go through the Omega IV relay to salvage what was left of the Collector Base. Once he said that, I KNEW that Bioware had shown it's hand on how Cerberus could still get its hand on Reaper tech and let things go to hell.

[Seboist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

If it's a Paragon choice, you know that the game has got you covered... I wouldn't worry about it.

Yep, it's the "have your cake and eat it" choice. The fact that a Shepard whose reasons for destroying such a vital asset like the CB  were nothing more than blubbering idealism and a desire to stick it to TIM can still end up beating the Reapers proves it.

[Sheppard-Commander]

The only Renegade meta-rational on the situation I can think of is that you are banking on either Cerberus creating something useful for the upcoming war or gaining valuable insight/information on the inner workings of Reaper tech that may be recovered and used against Cerberus/Reapers in the future. In which case, you would have sacrificed many lives to indoctrination as well as gambled with strengthening the enemy.

It would be a long shot, but then again...you are facing a fleet of near unstoppable genocide waging organic/machine ships. The odds really dont seem to be on your side in the first place, any hope of getting an upper hand may very well be worth taking.

Abispa wrote...

When I played LotSB, I did so AFTER the
suicide mission, so I got to hear the SB say that he was going to kill
the squad, then use the IFF in the Normandy to go through the Omega IV
relay to salvage what was left of the Collector Base. Once he said that,
I KNEW that Bioware had shown it's hand on how Cerberus could still get
its hand on Reaper tech and let things go to hell.

We recovered 1 IFF which was still aboard the SR2. As far as we know, thats the only one as there was a total of 1 collector cruiser seen multiple times in ME2.

Now, if Cerberus where already working for the Reapers on some level...they may have gained the knowledge to manipulate the O4 relay from them.

Modifié par Sheppard-Commander, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:37 .

[alperez]

Isn't the simple answer always the best, because we can.

Seriously though while everything the Op says is completely true it takes into account things that at the time you can't take into account.

You either agree that keeping the base and giving it to TIM is your best chance of beating the reapers or destroying the base and not allowing TIM take it over is the safest or morally right thing to do. Everything that happens after that event is an unknown variable that you at the time have no control over.

You can't predict at the time that the SB would still try to get to the remnants of the base and get his hands on the tech.

Or that the reapers would set up bases and beyond omega 4 leading to the events in invasion or that cerberus would somehow end up indoctrinated.

As for worrying about Reaper tech being available once you destroy the reapers you still have the rather large problem of destroying the reapers.

Yes in hindsight your actions whatever they were made little or no effect to how things turn out but at the time you don't have that knowledge and can only make the best choice with the info you already possess. Shepard while possessing what at times seems like superpowers doesn't see the future and can only hope that the actions taken turn out to be the right ones.

In essence why you destroy the base or not is a symbolic act, but wars have been turned with symbolic acts.

[Medhia Nox]

The funny thing is - this is a video game centered around how special the player is.

I will be surprised (pleasantly) if you actually get punished for any choice.

But here is what I actually expect:

Keep the Base: Yeah Shepard! Good plan!
Destroy the Base: You're a bad-ass Shepard! You didn't need to Juicer!

[MegaBadExample]

Explosions are fun.

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

TIM was only one of several reasons.

1) The Collectors were tools of the Reapers.

They "Collect" DNA and put it through their juicer and create a "Proto-Reaper" (whether or not it would have been "finished" or placed into a giant cuttlefish ship isn't answered to my knowledge).

A) I saw no reason for the Reapers to simply leave a cache of Reaper tech that had nothing to do with making juice out of humans. All the tech we've obtained so far (which presumably is only the Thanix Cannon) - was taken from Sovereign - not anything related to the Collectors.

Wait, not even all the tech that went into creating and maintaining the Collectors? Or their huskification improvment research, in regards to the armies the Reapers will use? Or the actual Reaper itself inside?

Not to mention all the 'mere' Collector-level technology, such as particle beams, bio-warfare elements, stasis-field weapons, and such?

2) Retrofitting the Collector base would take vast amounts of resources - and more importantly, manpower.

The Reapers are coming - and yes, I can let TIM devote his entire organization to trying to figure out how to operate their galactic juicer and if it will even be any help at all. OR - I can destroy the Reaper base and have TIM devote his time to combating the Reapers directly.

This is neither pragmatic - nor idealistic - it is simply a call to make. Wasting time with the Collector ship might yield nothing (or worse, Indoctrination) - or, it might be a rousing success. There's no margin for error - but a choice needed to be made - I felt that I've already battled the Reapers so far without a giant asteroid juicer, so the gamble wasn't worth the risk.

But TIM already devotes the manpower into researching the base.

If anything, more manpower is being wasted to compensate for the destruction!

3) Protecting the Juicer until we could discover the ancient secrets the Reapers foolishly left on board their automated asteroid ship.

The Reapers know where the Collector ship is - and if they don't send one of their own to retrieve it, they'll send Geth, or husks, or whatever. I can't waste a fleet, and ground troops, protecting something that may - or may not - yield results. There are entire homeworlds out there that need these soldiers. Earth being one of them - and if TIM really wants to save Earth, he might want to consider not being a chronic gambler.

But you could have blown it up later, to deny it to them then.

Nor would the Collector Base have been necessary: they can always build a new device, and they still would need years (again) to make another Reaper.

4) The Reapers are "supposed" to be intelligent.

If I were going to build a juicer manned by indoctrinated drone Ex-Protheans... I would have foreseen the possibility of it being taken.

Couldn't they have also foreseen the possibility of it being destroyed?

IF I were going to put super secret caches of uber-tech on board in the off chance that an organic race would land and steal it so that they might beat me... I would put a self-destruct option on the Juicer.

Then wouldn't that have put you right back at the same position (more or less) as if you had destroyed it... thus mitigating the premise of the same choice?

Furthermore - as Shepard, being a lowly organic and thinking of these things... then I have to ask. If there's ANYTHING worth taking on the Juicer... "why" are the Reapers just letting me have it? How many "oversights" can the Reapers make before one of them becomes intentional.

But... they didn't just let you have it. Any more than they just let you beat Sovereign.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:43 .

[Malanek]

I think it is too early to complain about "the illusion of choice". If ME3 comes out and the story is the same either way, or only very superficially different, complain then.

[Dean_the_Young]

alperez wrote...

Isn't the simple answer always the best, because we can.

Seriously though while everything the Op says is completely true it takes into account things that at the time you can't take into account.

That's rather the point. There are a lot of things you can't take into account... but having your best reasonings circumvented regardless isn't exactly generous of them.

[tobynator89]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

alperez wrote...

Isn't the simple answer always the best, because we can.

Seriously though while everything the Op says is completely true it takes into account things that at the time you can't take into account.

That's rather the point. There are a lot of things you can't take into account... but having your best reasonings circumvented regardless isn't exactly generous of them.

what does generousness has to do with anything in regards to storytelling?

[Medhia Nox]

You can disagree with me all you want. I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

You made a post - I gave you my reasons, but it's more to show that not all Paragons chose it for the simple myopic reason of pissing off TIM.

I might be wrong in my reasoning - so might a Renegade who just sees a giant weapon - you wanted to know if there are any good reasons to blowing it up. I believe I gave you several - again, "good reasons" doesn't mean "I'm right - you're wrong."

====

Let me also say I would not have ANY problem being "punished" for destroying the Collector base.

I also saw the advantages - but I did not feel they immediately outweighed the dangers/disadvantages

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:47 .

[Abispa]

Sheppard-Commander wrote...

We recovered 1 IFF which was still aboard the SR2. As far as we know, thats the only one as there was a total of 1 collector cruiser seen multiple times in ME2.

Now, if Cerberus where already working for the Reapers on some level...they may have gained the knowledge to manipulate the O4 relay from them.

I had considered that, but Miranda and EDI were both required to send "updates" to TIM, and I'm sure schematics of the IFF would have been a priority. Even Shepard would have to go along with that since Cerberus alone or, if TIM kept his promise, the notified Alliance with Cerberus would need an IFF to get through if the squad were all killed.

We were never given the scope of those updates, so the writers could have made them as detailed or nondescript as they wanted for events in ME3.