1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Pulletlamer]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

You assume that Cerberus will help you. The base it's not avaibable to you. It's for Cerberus. That's the problem.

You don't have the base.

Without the knowledge of Cerberus being indoctrinated in Mass Effect 3 promos, there is absolutely no reason to expect that Cerberus would side for galactic extinction.

I'm not saying that because I have seen ME3 promos. I'm saying that because at the end of ME2 you're giving the base to Cerberus, in exchange for a "promise to help humanity".  Of course you don't know what Cerberus is going to do with it, another reason to not give it to them.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 15 juillet 2011 - 11:41 .

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Except Cerberus is your ally, has been providing you with technology / resources and intel. They've been the only people supporting you through all of Mass Effect 2. They've been reverse engineering left over Collector technology and sending it's results to you.

Why would Shepard suddenly assume this would stop?

I don't know. The takeover of one of the most advanced warships in the galaxy might be a clue.

Not to mention that TIM is a unstable and unpredictable element.

And you want to give this guy technology that he can might as well turn into WMDs.

 

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...
With that definition, almost every group in ME is a terrorist.

There is a difference, though.

Neither their governments nor the Council have officially declared them terrorists.

Unlike Cerberus.

[upsettingshorts]

Pulletlamer wrote...

I'm not saying that because I have seen ME3 promos. I'm saying that because at the end of ME2 you're giving the base to Cerberus, in exchange for a "promise to help humanity".  Of course you don't know what Cerberus is going to do with it, another reason to not give it to them.

Humanity doesn't win if the Reapers do.  Is it that hard an argument to grasp that "The Reapers are a far bigger problem than anything Cerberus can come up with"

Someone With Mass wrote...

Neither their governments nor the Council have officially declared them terrorists.

Hah, you say that like you think it's supposed ot carry any weight.

Governments find labels incredibly useful and convenient.

Again, to be terrorists Cerberus must have committed terrorist acts.  They do not.  Ergo, they are not terrorists.

Amoral criminal jingoist shadow organization, yes.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 juillet 2011 - 11:35 .

[Homebound]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

For the first post, the fact remains, they attacked the migrant fleet.

Not denying that in the slightest. 

Someone With Mass wrote...

ter·ror·ism
"The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims"

I'd say that fits rather nicely with what Cerberus is doing.

They have political aims, but their use of violence is rarely - essentially never, save possibly the example of assassination - used directly to achieve it.  Jack's story is violent, but it was also a secret project.  Terrorism can't exist in secret because it needs a population to intimidate.

To be terrorists one has to commit terrorism.

still a crime though. attacking the flotilla, kidnapping Jack. Cerberus are none-nice individuals.

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

There is a difference, though.

Neither their governments nor the Council have officially declared them terrorists.

Unlike Cerberus.

Ah, so it has to be made official by somebody saying it? So the Alliance isn't "terrorist" (judging by your definition) because nobody officially said "Hey, you're terrorists!".

[upsettingshorts]

Hellbound555 wrote...

still a crime though. attacking the flotilla, kidnapping Jack. Cerberus are none-nice individuals.

Neither are the Quarians, but yes - that's pretty much all I've been saying.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 juillet 2011 - 11:36 .

[Homebound]

Pulletlamer wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

You assume that Cerberus will help you. The base it's not avaibable to you. It's for Cerberus. That's the problem.

You don't have the base.

Without the knowledge of Cerberus being indoctrinated in Mass Effect 3 promos, there is absolutely no reason to expect that Cerberus would side for galactic extinction.

I'm not saying that because I have seen ME3 promos. I'm saying that because at the end of ME2 you're giving the base to Cerberus, in exchange for a "promise to help humanity".  Of course you don't know what Cerberus is going to do with it, another reason to not give it to them.

before this quote tree gets any farther, thats not me that said that.

[Dave of Canada]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Humanity doesn't win if the Reapers do.  Is it that hard an argument to grasp that "The Reapers are a far bigger problem than anything Cerberus can come up with"

Cerberus killing people is worse than the entire galaxy being destroyed.

[Merci357]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

You assume that Cerberus will help you. The base it's not avaibable to you. It's for Cerberus. That's the problem.

You don't have the base.

Except Cerberus is your ally, has been providing you with technology / resources and intel. They've been the only people supporting you through all of Mass Effect 2. They've been reverse engineering left over Collector technology and sending it's results to you.

Why would Shepard suddenly assume this would stop?

True, Shepard could be somewhat limited in his knowledge about Cerberus. Then again, he has seen the work of some Cerberus cells in ME, he's been to Pragia in ME2. And is it very meta-gamey to assume (since he is quite close to Anderson, he could just ask a unshackled EDI, he has the Shadowbroker files at his disposal) that he could very know what happened in the Ascension and Retribution novels?

Modifié par Merci357, 15 juillet 2011 - 11:39 .

[Homebound]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

still a crime though. attacking the flotilla, kidnapping Jack. Cerberus are none-nice individuals.

Neither are the Quarians, but yes - that's pretty much all I've been saying.

so you recognize that Cerberus has been responsible for these crimes?

[upsettingshorts]

Hellbound555 wrote...

so you recognize that Cerberus has been responsible for these crimes?

Where did I even imply I was claiming that they weren't?

I just said their particular crimes weren't terrorism.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 juillet 2011 - 11:38 .

[Pulletlamer]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

You assume that Cerberus will help you. The base it's not avaibable to you. It's for Cerberus. That's the problem.

You don't have the base.

Except Cerberus is your ally, has been providing you with technology / resources and intel. They've been the only people supporting you through all of Mass Effect 2. They've been reverse engineering left over Collector technology and sending it's results to you.

Why would Shepard suddenly assume this would stop?

Well maybe because they have been cheating and betraying me when they could? Like sending me into a trap to the collector ship in exhange for a bit of information.

You owe nothing to Cerberus or the Illusive man. The Illisuve man plays his cards how they wants. He decided to bring you back to life, for unknown reasons, and sends you to stop the collectors. That doesn't justify you trusting Cerberus. especially after discovering the experiments they do with subject Zero, the "dead" reaper, etc. along the game it's hard at least for me to trust them.

I will repeat. You're giving him the most powerful tech in the galaxy, to a hard to trust organization, with dark past full of failures/dangerous experiments and with fame of being terrorist, in exchange for the promise that they will help you defeat the reapers.

Man, I believe the Illusive man, if you kept the base is like "Wow, Shepard is so easy...".

You can trust his promise or not. But personally I wouldn't risk.

Hellbound555 wrote...


before this quote tree gets any farther, thats not me that said that.

Sorry, I messed up with the editing. It was me who said that.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 15 juillet 2011 - 11:40 .

[Dave of Canada]

Merci357 wrote...

And is it very meta-gamey to assume (since he is quite close to Anderson) that he could very know what happened in the Ascension and Retribution novels?

Ascension is mentioned several times in ME2 by the Quarians and Pragia logs, though it isn't very much indepth. Anderson wouldn't know much more either, as most of the Cerberus involvement was mostly tied to Grayson.

Retribution is set after the game.

[Homebound]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

so you recognize that Cerberus has been responsible for these crimes?

Where did I even imply I was claiming that they weren't?

I just said their particular crimes weren't terrorism.

Well, I hope you understand what Jacob meant about Cerberus.

[Someone With Mass]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hah, you say that like you think it's supposed ot carry any weight.

Governments find labels incredibly useful and convenient.

Again, to be terrorists Cerberus must have committed terrorist acts.  They do not.  Ergo, they are not terrorists.

Amoral criminal jingoist shadow organization, yes.

The attack on the quarian fleet can be viewed as an act of terrorism. 

And I just find it laughable that people are honestly trying to defend these Team Rocket-rejects. Just because of their cliched leader that has shown no interesting character traits whatsoever and has directly contributed exactly nothing to the overall plot is called "The Illusive Man". Because his lable apparently makes him interesting in a nonsensical way.

[Merci357]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Merci357 wrote...

And is it very meta-gamey to assume (since he is quite close to Anderson) that he could very know what happened in the Ascension and Retribution novels?

Ascension is mentioned several times in ME2 by the Quarians and Pragia logs, though it isn't very much indepth. Anderson wouldn't know much more either, as most of the Cerberus involvement was mostly tied to Grayson.

Retribution is set after the game.

Oh, okay, thanks for the clarification - wasn't that sure about the correct timeline, been a while since I read them.

[upsettingshorts]

Pulletlamer wrote...

Well maybe because they have been cheating and betraying me when they could? Like sending me into a trap to the collector ship in exhange for a bit of information.

That was a tactical risk on behalf of the Illusive Man.  What if the Collectors knew you knew it was a trap?  

Pulletlamer wrote...

Man, I believe the Illusive man, if you kept the base is like "Wow, Shepard is so easy...".

He probably thinks you're the universe's biggest moron with a death wish if you blow it up, to be fair. 

[upsettingshorts]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The attack on the quarian fleet can be viewed as an act of terrorism.

Sure, by people who have no clue what the word means or who have an agenda.

Someone With Mass wrote...

And I just find it laughable that people are honestly trying to defend

Saying they're not terrorists is not a defense, it's semantics.

[upsettingshorts]

Hellbound555 wrote...

Well, I hope you understand what Jacob meant about Cerberus.

Sure, they're an amoral criminal jingoist shadow organization with a well deserved bad public reputation.

[Dave of Canada]

Pulletlamer wrote...

Well maybe because they have been cheating and betraying me when they could? Like sending me into a trap to the collector ship in exhange for a bit of information.

You mean the information that proved itself valuable and helped in the total destruction of the Collectors after finding out we needed a Reaper IFF (which was extracted by Cerberus staff)?

I will repeat. You're giving him the most powerful tech in the galaxy, to a hard to trust organization, with dark past full of failures/dangerous experiments and with fame of being terrorist, in exchange for the promise that they will help you defeat the reapers.

Man, I believe the Illusive man, if you kept the base is like "Wow, Shepard is so easy...".

... so the organization who's been helping you the entire game, brought you back to life, gave you supplies / crew / intel / ship and wasted bajillions of credits on your success... promises to help you when the Reapers come and you don't trust them? You honestly believe they'd view extinction as preferable?

[Homebound]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hah, you say that like you think it's supposed ot carry any weight.

Governments find labels incredibly useful and convenient.

Again, to be terrorists Cerberus must have committed terrorist acts.  They do not.  Ergo, they are not terrorists.

Amoral criminal jingoist shadow organization, yes.

The attack on the quarian fleet can be viewed as an act of terrorism. 

And I just find it laughable that people are honestly trying to defend these Team Rocket-rejects. Just because of their cliched leader that has shown no interesting character traits whatsoever and has directly contributed exactly nothing to the overall plot is called "The Illusive Man". Because his lable apparently makes him interesting in a nonsensical way.

He WAS voiced by Martin sheen though. so theres that.

[Homebound]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

Well, I hope you understand what Jacob meant about Cerberus.

Sure, they're an amoral criminal jingoist shadow organization with a well deserved bad public reputation.

And I dont trust them with the collector base. So I blew it up.

[Pulletlamer]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

I'm
not saying that because I have seen ME3 promos. I'm saying that because
at the end of ME2 you're giving the base to Cerberus, in exchange for a
"promise to help humanity".  Of course you don't know what Cerberus is going to do with it, another reason to not give it to them.

Humanity
doesn't win if the Reapers do.  Is it that hard an argument to grasp
that "The Reapers are a far bigger problem than anything Cerberus can
come up with"

As I said, that doesn't justify giving the most powerful technology in the galaxy to a hard to be trusted organization, in exchange for the promise that they will help you.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Well maybe because they have been cheating and betraying me when they could? Like sending me into a trap to the collector ship in exhange for a bit of information.

That was a tactical risk on behalf of the Illusive Man.  What if the Collectors knew you knew it was a trap?

Still doesn't justify his actions. If he's on your side, he should've told you. That's crossing the line.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Man, I believe the Illusive man, if you kept the base is like "Wow, Shepard is so easy...".

He probably thinks you're the universe's biggest moron with a death wish if you blow it up, to be fair. 

I believe he thinks that you are not pro-Cerberus, that's all.

[upsettingshorts]

Pulletlamer wrote...

As I said, that doesn't justify giving the most powerful technology in the galaxy to a hard to be trusted organization, in exchange for the promise that they will help you.

Yes it does.

Pulletlamer wrote...

If he's on your side, he should've told you. That's crossing the line.

It crosses your line.

Pulletlamer wrote...

I believe he thinks that you are not pro-Cerberus, that's all.

His own lines and delivery seem to imply otherwise.  He's absolutely incredulous that you won't keep this obviously - to him - valuable asset.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 juillet 2011 - 11:49 .