1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sure, by people who have no clue what the word means or who have an agenda.

They managed to upset the already fragile power balance in the fleet and tried to blow up one of their ships for no good reason other than retreiving another of their failed projects.

If that's not terrorism, I'd really like to know what it is, because their actions sure as hell aren't justifiable by any moral means.

Neither is assassinating political leaders just to make it slightly more convenient for themselves.

Not only have they broken over a dozen Citadel laws (which apparently is alright since it's war, and that means all rules goes out the window and it's okay to go on with full out anarchy) and they have openly sabotaged property and killed personal of the Alliance, which can cripple the Alliance's hold on other areas in numerous ways.

So yeah. Excuse me if I don't want to blindly side with their delusional agendas.

[Pulletlamer]

Dave of Canada wrote...
You mean the information that proved itself valuable and helped in the total destruction of the Collectors after finding out we needed a Reaper IFF (which was extracted by Cerberus staff)?

... so the organization who's been helping you the entire game, brought you back to life, gave you supplies / crew / intel / ship and wasted bajillions of credits on your success... promises to help you when the Reapers come and you don't trust them? You honestly believe they'd view extinction as preferable?

I believe TIM is just playing his cards carefully. At that moment he could have thought bringing Shepard back to life was his best choice.
As I said they betray you along the game. You only discover nasty things about them, and they put self-interest before you or anyone else.

I could agree that without getting into the Collector ship we couldn't know how to pass the O4 relay, but still, if Shepard died in the ship, what? Plan is screwed. Just because he tells you " I knew you wouldn't fail" it doesn't justify sending you blindlessly to death.

I don't think they prefer extinction as preferable, I just think that giving them the tech in exchange for a promise is quite silly.

[Comsky159]

The illusive man is intelligent. However he is also incredibly arrogant and reckless. When I was confronted with this choice I recalled a message after Overlord, where Shepard had just prevented a rogue VI from creating a technological apocalypse on a galactic scale (where all weaponry, mechs and technology could be turned on organics), where he chides Shepard on dissembling the project. because it "puts Cerberus's efforts to understand the geth back several years".

The man is smart, but he's ultimately a fool. That kind of technology seen in the base can't be pioneered by a terrorist group. Even Shepard in one of the paragon responses predicts he might grow his own reaper if the base was conserved; and Shepard knows what he's talking about.

[upsettingshorts]

WARNING SPOILERS FOR DRAGON AGE 2

Someone With Mass wrote...

They managed to upset the already fragile power balance in the fleet and tried to blow up one of their ships for no good reason other than retreiving another of their failed projects.

Reason:  Retrieving another of their failed projects.  

A reason doesn't have to be "good."  Terrorism calls for a specific category of reasons, none of which (save possibly the exception below) Cerberus actions qualify for.

Someone With Mass wrote...

If that's not terrorism, I'd really like to know what it is, because their actions sure as hell aren't justifiable by any moral means.

Terrorism isn't "amoral acts with weak justifications"  And I already described what terrorism is.  Heck, there's a textbook example in Dragon Age 2. 

Someone With Mass wrote...

Neither is assassinating political leaders just to make it slightly more convenient for themselves.

This is the only thing Cerberus has ever done that I'm aware of is even close to what terrorism is.  It'd be if in DA2 Anders assassinated Elthina instead of blowing up where she worked and everyone nearby.

Someone With Mass wrote...

Not only have they broken over a dozen Citadel laws (which apparently is alright since it's war, and that means all rules goes out the window and it's okay to go on with full out anarchy) and they have openly sabotaged property and killed personal of the Alliance, which can cripple the Alliance's hold on other areas in numerous ways.

I have denied none of this.

Someone With Mass wrote...

So yeah. Excuse me if I don't want to blindly side with their delusional agendas.

Uh, they're jingoists.  Not sure what else you'd expect, really. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 juillet 2011 - 11:57 .

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

They managed to upset the already fragile power balance in the fleet and tried to blow up one of their ships for no good reason other than retreiving another of their failed projects.

If that's not terrorism, I'd really like to know what it is

Terrorism: (depending on reason)

They managed to upset the already fragile power balance in the fleet and tried to blow up one of their ships

Not terrorism:

They managed to upset the already fragile power balance in the fleet and tried to blow up one of their ships for no good reason other than retreiving another of their failed projects.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 11:56 .

[Homebound]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sure, by people who have no clue what the word means or who have an agenda.

They managed to upset the already fragile power balance in the fleet and tried to blow up one of their ships for no good reason other than retreiving another of their failed projects.

If that's not terrorism, I'd really like to know what it is, because their actions sure as hell aren't justifiable by any moral means.

Neither is assassinating political leaders just to make it slightly more convenient for themselves.

Not only have they broken over a dozen Citadel laws (which apparently is alright since it's war, and that means all rules goes out the window and it's okay to go on with full out anarchy) and they have openly sabotaged property and killed personal of the Alliance, which can cripple the Alliance's hold on other areas in numerous ways.

So yeah. Excuse me if I don't want to blindly side with their delusional agendas.

cerberus isnt trustworthy. Dont believe anything they promise.

[Leonia]

Someone With Mass wrote...

They managed to upset the already fragile power balance in the fleet and tried to blow up one of their ships for no good reason other than retreiving another of their failed projects.

The power balance issues withn the flotilla existed long before Cerberus got involved and continued to exist after they left. It can be considered amoral to infiltrate the flotilla but given the amount of damage done, it is a bit of a stretch to make Cerberus out to be the Big Bad that caused all of the Fleet's instability issues. It was a very, very minor incident, yeah some quarians died but in the end Cerberus left them alone once they had what they wanted. Definitely not an act of terrorism, but of course the quarians being the victim-stricken people that they are would mislabel it as such to get more sympathy from everyone else. 

[Pulletlamer]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

As I said, that doesn't justify giving the most powerful technology in the galaxy to a hard to be trusted organization, in exchange for the promise that they will help you.

Yes it does.

Pulletlamer wrote...

If he's on your side, he should've told you. That's crossing the line.

It crosses your line.

Pulletlamer wrote...

I believe he thinks that you are not pro-Cerberus, that's all.

His own lines and delivery seem to imply otherwise.  He's absolutely incredulous that you won't keep this obviously - to him - valuable asset.

No it doesn't justify it by any means, it would be the same the salarians did with the krogan. they gave them big "gunz 'nd weaponz" to kill the rachni threat and look at what happened. We are talking about the most powerful technology in the galaxy, not about some laser guns. Who doesn't say that they won't keep his promise?

Trusting him is a mistake in my opinion.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 15 juillet 2011 - 11:59 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sure, by people who have no clue what the word means or who have an agenda.

They managed to upset the already fragile power balance in the fleet and tried to blow up one of their ships for no good reason other than retreiving another of their failed projects.

If that's not terrorism, I'd really like to know what it is, because their actions sure as hell aren't justifiable by any moral means.

An amoral means to an end, namely retrieving Gillian. If they attacked the Flotilla with the sole intent of upsetting the quarian powers that be, then it could be considered terrorism.

[Dave of Canada]

Pulletlamer wrote...

I don't think they prefer extinction as preferable, I just think that giving them the tech in exchange for a promise is quite silly.

Alright, honest question, what do you expect him to give you? Legal documents? Reaper tech immediately? A hug? You're giving him Reaper tech for him to study and he promises to use it against the Reapers, the people who are coming in who knows how long.

There's nothing else they can give.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 11:59 .

[upsettingshorts]

Pulletlamer wrote...

No it doesn't justify it by any means

Are you God?  No?  Then let me decide for myself what ends are justified by what means.  That'd be great.

"Not being wiped out by the Reapers" justifies practically - if not absolutely - everything in my book.

History may judge such decisions harshly, but at least someone would actually be around to condemn them.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

An amoral means to an end, namely retrieving Gillian. If they attacked the Flotilla with the sole intent of upsetting the quarian powers that be, then it could be considered terrorism.

Bingo.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 juillet 2011 - 12:01 .

[Bocks]

"I'll Be the First to Complain"

I laughed so hard at this.

[Homebound]

leonia42 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

They managed to upset the already fragile power balance in the fleet and tried to blow up one of their ships for no good reason other than retreiving another of their failed projects.

The power balance issues withn the flotilla existed long before Cerberus got involved and continued to exist after they left. It can be considered amoral to infiltrate the flotilla but given the amount of damage done, it is a bit of a stretch to make Cerberus out to be the Big Bad that caused all of the Fleet's instability issues. It was a very, very minor incident, yeah some quarians died but in the end Cerberus left them alone once they had what they wanted. Definitely not an act of terrorism, but of course the quarians being the victim-stricken people that they are would mislabel it as such to get more sympathy from everyone else. 

missing the point. they attacked the migrant fleet.

[Dave of Canada]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Are you God?  No?  Then let me decide for myself what ends are justified by what means.  That'd be great.

"Not being wiped out by the Reapers" justifies practically - if not absolutely - everything in my book.

Have you tried extinction? Don't knock it until you try it.

[upsettingshorts]

Hellbound555 wrote...

missing the point. they attacked the migrant fleet.

Not if the point was the attack on the Migrant fleet by Cerberus was not terrorism.  Which was my point.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 juillet 2011 - 12:01 .

[Pulletlamer]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

I don't think they prefer extinction as preferable, I just think that giving them the tech in exchange for a promise is quite silly.

Alright, honest question, what do you expect him to give you? Legal documents? Reaper tech immediately? A hug? You're giving him Reaper tech for him to study and he promises to use it against the Reapers, the people who are coming in who knows how long.

There's nothing else they can give.

Honest opinion.

They could share it with the Alliance/Council races and try to prove that the Reapers are a real threat. Instead, they keep it, and say "Don't worry, we will help you, trust me man, look at me, I mean, how could I be lying?"

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

No it doesn't justify it by any means

Are you God?  No?  Then let me decide for myself what ends are justified by what means.  That'd be great.

"Not being wiped out by the Reapers" justifies practically - if not absolutely - everything in my book.

History may judge such decisions harshly, but at least someone would actually be around to condemn them.

Answer me please, wouldn't it be the same the salarians did with the Krogan?
Don't put my quotes out of context, please. Thanks in advance.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 15 juillet 2011 - 12:03 .

[Dave of Canada]

Pulletlamer wrote...

Honest opinion.

They could share it with the Alliance/Council races and try to prove that the Reapers are a real threat.

They do release their technologies to the Alliance, they do it through their front companies.

 Instead, they keep it, and say "Don't worry, we will help you, trust me man, look at me, I mean, how could I be lying?"

Tone down the exaggeration.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 12:03 .

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Not terrorism:

They managed to upset the already fragile power balance in the fleet and tried to blow up one of their ships for no good reason other than retreiving another of their failed projects.

Oh, okay. It's another "the end justifies the means" gag. *sigh*

Because it apparently wasn't possible to silently infiltrate the fleet, grab the asset and then exfiltrate. Nope, because that would make them competent enough to run an organization like theirs.

[Homebound]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

missing the point. they attacked the migrant fleet.

Not if the point was the attack on the Migrant fleet by Cerberus was not terrorism.  Which was my point.

they proved without a shadow of a doubt to be an enemy of the migrant fleet.

[upsettingshorts]

Dave of Canada wrote...

They do release their technologies to the Alliance, they do it through their front companies.

Do we know this?

Do we know that they keep it to themselves either?

I'd like an explicit source on either.

Hellbound555 wrote...

they proved without a shadow of a doubt to be an enemy of the migrant fleet.

Seriously?  Let's run through this again:

- Cerberus aren't actually terrorists
- "But they attacked the Migrant Fleet"
- That was to kidnap someone
- "Yeah but they're an enemy of the Migrant Fleet though"
- What's that got to do with what I'm saying at all?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 juillet 2011 - 12:06 .

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Oh, okay. It's another "the end justifies the means" gag. *sigh*

Where did I say that? All I said was that it isn't terrorism.

[Leonia]

Hellbound555 wrote...

missing the point. they attacked the migrant fleet.

Missing the point: they were after Gillian. The quarians were in the way when they decided to provide her shelter. Their fault. Like so many things they try to blame others for.

[Pulletlamer]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Honest opinion.

They could share it with the Alliance/Council races and try to prove that the Reapers are a real threat.

They do release their technologies to the Alliance, they do it through their front companies.

 Instead, they keep it, and say "Don't worry, we will help you, trust me man, look at me, I mean, how could I be lying?"

Tone down the exaggeration.

1. They do? I don't think so.

2. I wasn't exaggerating. All they say is they will help you.

[Dave of Canada]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Do we know this?

Do we know that they keep it to themselves either?

I'd like an explicit source on either.

Too tired to go browse through my two novels at the moment, though Retribution does mention it once and IIRC the Ascension Project is using some of the data retrieved from the Subject Zero project.

Nothing to say they don't keep it themselves, though.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 12:08 .

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Where did I say that? All I said was that it isn't terrorism.

You're indicating that blowing up a ship when they clearly have no rime or reason to do so is justifiable just because they're trying to grab something that's theirs, that's all.