1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Pulletlamer]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
The attack on the Idenna wasn't executed with an intent to create fear. /terrorism discussion

Still, if you act against a government, even if you did it not to cause fear, it's terrorism.

No, that would be treason. And besides, the Enclave/Admiralty isn't their government.

Edit: Also, the attack only happened against one ship...

I don't have the book, so I don't know the details. Doesn't matter how many ships they attacked. Just because they attacked one ship it doesn't mean they should be absolved of what they did.

Anyways it doesn't matter if they can be fit in the definition of terrorists or not. They act against governements when they believe it's necessary due to his ideology, and that's good enough for me to call them terrorists, but whatever.

At the very least it's enough reason (at least for me) to understand why Cerberus has bad reputation and is often labelled as a terrorist organization due to acts like this.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:11 .

[Someone With Mass]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
The point is neither side tried to come to a peaceful resolution. The quarians didn't offer the kid and the Cerberus team didn't ask for her. They were both in the wrong. Neither side did the right thing.

Wait, what?

The quarians are "in the wrong" for not handing a kidnap/torture victim back to her kidnappers? 

Because, you know, even if they had done that it wouldn't be a peaceful resolution.  It would be a resolution that directly facilitates kidnapping, torture, and experimentation on children.

What's the point of this argument anyways?  "Cerberus wasn't technically commiting a terrorist act against the quarians as per the Oxford dictionary definition; they were just going to kill a bunch of them that stood in the way of their illegal and immoral activities"?

Well, when you say it like that, the whole thing sounds pretty stupid.

[Leonia]

This is how most "Keep/Destroy the Base" threads tend to go.. turns into Cerberus bashing and people throwing terms around loosely that they don't understand fully. I will admit we are grossly off-topic now.

Regarding the fleet incident, it's not terrorism just because the quarians have labelled it as such. That's really all I wanted to point out.

If you want to call Cerberus terrorists, you can't use the Fleet infiltration situation as an example of their terrorist acts.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Pulletlamer wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
The attack on the Idenna wasn't executed with an intent to create fear. /terrorism discussion

Still, if you act against a government, even if you did it not to cause fear, it's terrorism.

No, that would be treason. And besides, the Enclave/Admiralty isn't their government.

Edit: Also, the attack only happened against one ship...

I don't have the book, so I don't know the details. Doesn't matter how many ships they attacked. Just because they attacked one ship it doesn't mean they should be absolved of what they did.

Anyways it doesn't matter if they can be fit in the definition of terrorists or not. They act against governements when they believe it's necessary due to his ideology, and that's good enough for me to call them terrorists, but whatever.

At the very least it's enough reason (at least for me) to understand why Cerberus has bad reputation and is often labelled as a terrorist organization due to acts like this.

True, true. And you really should get the book, as it is a good read for anyone into Mass Effect.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:13 .

[Dave of Canada]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

What's the point of this argument anyways?  "Cerberus wasn't technically commiting a terrorist act against the quarians as per the Oxford dictionary definition; they were just going to kill a bunch of them that stood in the way of their illegal and immoral activities"?

The argument is people use labels with strong implications that don't fit the group in order to justify their CB decision and the thing they bring up to prove their points isn't terrorism.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:13 .

[zylas223]

I guess using the "terrorist" word to describe someone clouds the judgement of their actions, considering the current state of the world. So some may consider Cerberus "evil because they are terrorists", instead of "terrorists because they are evil". I wonder if anyone will understand what I meant to say

My point is, we should evaluate their actions and categorise them based on the deeds, instead of labeling them as terrorist and then fitting their actions into definitions.

Modifié par zylas223, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:17 .

[Someone With Mass]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

True, true. And you should get the book, as it is a good read for anyone into Mass Effect.

Skip Retribution, though. 

I've read better constructed fanfiction.

[Leonia]

Retribution is just..longer than it should have been, not a bad read though. It shows a lot of the psychological effects of indoctrination and more of Cerberus' grey nature.

[Kaiser Shepard]

leonia42 wrote...

This is how most "Keep/Destroy the Base" threads tend to go.. turns into Cerberus bashing and people throwing terms around loosely that they don't understand fully. I will admit we are grossly off-topic now.

That's why I love the morality topics on here, as they continue to amuse and challenge. I wouldn't call it off-topic, though, since all the sidetracking is still related to the main subject.

[Homebound]

zylas223 wrote...

I guess using the "terrorist" word to describe someone clouds the judgement of their actions, considering the current state of the world. So some may consider Cerberus "evil because they are terrorists", instead of "terrorists because they are evil". I wonder if anyone will understand what I meant to say

all blood mages are maleficars, but not all maleficars are blood mages.

i get u.

[CroGamer002]

@leonia42 I really wish to know what is your definition of terrorism.

[Merci357]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

True, true. And you should get the book, as it is a good read for anyone into Mass Effect.

Skip Retribution, though. 

I've read better constructed fanfiction.

Well, the fanfiction - as good as it might be - is just that, fan fiction. Retribution, while the weakest book, is part of the ME canon.

[Leonia]

zylas223 wrote...

I guess using the "terrorist" word to describe someone clouds the judgement of their actions, considering the current state of the world. So some may consider Cerberus "evil because they are terrorists", instead of "terrorists because they are evil". I wonder if anyone will understand what I meant to say

That's an elegant way of putting it!

[Homebound]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

This is how most "Keep/Destroy the Base" threads tend to go.. turns into Cerberus bashing and people throwing terms around loosely that they don't understand fully. I will admit we are grossly off-topic now.

That's why I love the morality topics on here, as they continue to amuse and challenge. I wouldn't call it off-topic, though, since all the sidetracking is still related to the main subject.

at the very least, ive learned a lot of people have lots of baggage around the word "terrorist" or "terrorism". Definitely a limitation to be overcome.

[Lotion Soronarr]

What's with all the talk of Paragon base-destroyers?

I'm mostly paragon and I gave TIM the base. Becasue it was utterly stupid to destroy it.
You don't just abadon enemy tech when the enemy is more advanced and about to invade you. Knowledge is power. Knowing your enemy is cruical.

[CroGamer002]

leonia42 wrote...

Retribution is just..longer than it should have been, not a bad read though. It shows a lot of the psychological effects of indoctrination and more of Cerberus' grey nature.

???

Using indoctrination for yourself and kidnapping people for that sick experiment is GREY NATURE to you?!

[Pulletlamer]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

This is how most "Keep/Destroy the Base" threads tend to go.. turns into Cerberus bashing and people throwing terms around loosely that they don't understand fully. I will admit we are grossly off-topic now.

That's why I love the morality topics on here, as they continue to amuse and challenge. I wouldn't call it off-topic, though, since all the sidetracking is still related to the main subject.

It was not off-topic. The whole argument came from that considering cerberus dark/criminal /terrorist (however you want to call them) actions you shouldn't save the collector base, since all they do is promise to give you aid when the reapers arrive.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

True, true. And you really should get the book, as it is a good read for anyone into Mass Effect.

I'll probably think about it.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:19 .

[Dave of Canada]

Mesina2 wrote...

???

Using indoctrination for yourself and kidnapping people for that sick experiment is GREY NATURE to you?!

To study it's effects and learn from it to use against the Reapers? Yes.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:19 .

[Leonia]

Mesina2 wrote...

@leonia42 I really wish to know what is your definition of terrorism.

leonia42 wrote...

Not to be blunt but terrorism is about, well, terror and fear. If there's no agenda or attempt to scare people,
then it's just a criminal act. Terrorism always furthers a cause or agenda, it's not the same as stealing an old lady's purse.

Basically not all crimes are terrorist acts. Doing something wrong does not make someone a terrorist. If one does not state "I am doing this crime because of such and such" then it's not terrorism because it has no cause or reason.

Cerberus never attacked the quarian government, they never terrorised the quarian people. They killed a few quarians (a crime) and kidnapped a human (also just a crime) who was hiding from them within the quarian flotilla.

Modifié par leonia42, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:22 .

[Reever]

Gawd, people!
If the choices lead to different outcomes for Paragons and Renegades, there´s an outcry!

If the choices are too similar, there´s whining as well...
In life, even if you make a choice, there´s still the possibility it doesn´t go the way you want it. The same with destroying the base. One can always say: "Could have been worse...." =D

[Leonia]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

???

Using indoctrination for yourself and kidnapping people for that sick experiment is GREY NATURE to you?!

To study it's effects and learn from it to use against the Reapers? Yes.

Understanding enemy technology at the expense of human lives is certainly questionable. Are we to fight the Reapers blindly because we were too scared to make hard choices regarding bioethics?

[Pulletlamer]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

???

Using indoctrination for yourself and kidnapping people for that sick experiment is GREY NATURE to you?!

To study it's effects and learn from it to use against the Reapers? Yes.

Wow!. That's harsh.

Another "the ends jusify the means"? How can you defend that? Experimenting on innocent people and turning them into mere husks without will is grey? If anything it's dark grey. Like, very dark.

leonia42 wrote...

Understanding enemy technology at the
expense of human lives is certainly questionable. Are we to fight
the Reapers blindly because we were too scared to make hard choices
regarding bioethics?

Questionable? I believe no one should be turned into a mindless husk just for the "greater good".

It's not that we're scared to make hard choices, that's totally unethical and even goes against the cerberus principe of saving humanity. You're gonna save humanity turning people into husks/abominations? Even if it's saved, at what price?

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:26 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

I didn't find Retribution to be that bad all: It certainly wasn't no Ascension, but it was still a more pleasant read than Revelation. Still, even Rev is miles ahead of your average videogame adaption.

They make for good ways to get your Mass Effect fix in this period of the development cycle.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:24 .

[Merci357]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

???

Using indoctrination for yourself and kidnapping people for that sick experiment is GREY NATURE to you?!

To study it's effects and learn from it to use against the Reapers? Yes.

So it boils down to "the End justifies the means", isn't it? If you do think this is the only way to escape annihilation, then yes. But I don't share that sentiment. If you become Dr. Mengele, there is no humanity left worth saving.

[Leonia]

Stating facts is not the same "defending" them.