1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Pulletlamer wrote...

Wow. That's harsh.

Another "the ends jusify the means"? How can you defend that? Experimenting on innocent people and turning them into mere husks without will is grey? If anything it's dark grey. Like, very dark.

Because it's uses and applications can be used to save more lives if we'd fully understand indoctrination and learn to counter it. Indoctrination is the Reaper's greatest weapon and learning how to counter it could possibly save the entire galaxy with the Reaper invasion coming.

Experimenting with one individual's life isn't dark, it's gray because it explores the lengths they are willing to go for their research to stop the Reapers. It'd be dark if it was experimenting because it was funny.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:25 .

[Golden Owl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

???

Using indoctrination for yourself and kidnapping people for that sick experiment is GREY NATURE to you?!

To study it's effects and learn from it to use against the Reapers? Yes.

.....You consider that acceptable?...Really?....

[CroGamer002]

leonia42 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

???

Using indoctrination for yourself and kidnapping people for that sick experiment is GREY NATURE to you?!

To study it's effects and learn from it to use against the Reapers? Yes.

Understanding enemy technology at the expense of human lives is certainly questionable. Are we to fight the Reapers blindly because we were too scared to make hard choices regarding bioethics?

WHAT?!


How the hell it helps you to fight Reapers by studding how indoctrination works?!

Makes no sense.



And what we find out?
Nothing new.


Completely pointless experiment.

[Dave of Canada]

Mesina2 wrote...

WHAT?!


How the hell it helps you to fight Reapers by studding how indoctrination works?!

Makes no sense.

Except indocrination is their greatest weapon? Turning entire nations against each other?

And what we find out?
Nothing new.


Completely pointless experiment.

Cerberus did learn something and you can't say it's a pointless experiment until you actually do it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:27 .

[Homebound]

If i give cerberus the collector base, will Urz get a cookie?!

[Kaiser Shepard]

"We have the technology, we can inject it into this here man."

You've got to admire Cerberus' ways of simply idiotically bruteforcing their way through dangerous tech.

[Leonia]

It is ironic that the man being experimented on has the surname Grayson.

A lot of Cerberus' experiments follow this trend, lots of questionable and morally arguable decisions regarding human and alien life done in the attempt to prevent the loss of even more human lives once the Reapers show up.

You may not agree with their methods but don't question their motives.

Ok, now I'm starting to sound pro-Cerberus..

[Homebound]

do we get saren's flying hoverboard?

[Leonia]

If they don't try to understand indoctrination, how the hell are we supposed to protect ourselves from it in ME3?

[Merci357]

leonia42 wrote...

It is ironic that the man being experimented on has the surname Grayson.

A lot of Cerberus' experiments follow this trend, lots of questionable and morally arguable decisions regarding human and alien life done in the attempt to prevent the loss of even more human lives once the Reapers show up.

You may not agree with their methods but don't question their motives.

Ok, now I'm starting to sound pro-Cerberus..

But I do question their motives, as well. Human supremancy in a galaxy full of sentient beings isn't something I'm fond of. If you boil it down to the lowest common denominator - survival - then yes...

[Kaiser Shepard]

Hellbound555 wrote...

do we get saren's flying hoverboard?

Chris Priestly wrote...

Saren's hoverboard was stolen at the last minute before the explosion by an alien named M'kfli from the planet Mar-Tee and was last seen falling through a rift in time caused by the great 1.12 Gigawatt event.

True story.

[Leonia]

Merci357 wrote...

But I do question their motives, as well. Human supremancy in a galaxy full of sentient beings isn't something I'm fond of. If you boil it down to the lowest common denominator - survival - then yes...

No doubt, I'm with you there. I love aliens and they were on the Council first. But.. I don't see Cerberus as pure evil either. I don't agree with their motives but I do try to understand why they do things the way they do.

[CroGamer002]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Except indocrination is their greatest weapon? Turning entire nations against each other?

How is that morally gray?

Cerberus did learn something and you can't say it's a pointless experiment until you actually do it.

Oh right, I apologize.
We did learned something.


You can't use indoctrination for yourself, only Reapers can do it.
Wow, that's very useful to stop them.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

leonia42 wrote...
Basically not all crimes are terrorist acts. Doing something wrong does not make someone a terrorist. If one does not state "I am doing this crime because of such and such" then it's not terrorism because it has no cause or reason.
Cerberus never attacked the quarian government, they never terrorised the quarian people. They killed a few quarians (a crime) and kidnapped a human (also just a crime) who was hiding from them within the quarian flotilla.

One could [rather easily] argue that the Cerberus attack on the fleet was a "surrender the girl or we'll kill you for her" situation.  And that is an intimidation and terror tactic.  And Cerberus has always had an agenda with their "crimes".  Kidnapping Gillian was not just "a crime"; it was a crime to further their political goals, and that extends to their desire to "reclaim" her.

The alternative is that they didn't even remotely care about the quarians' safety and didn't think twice about killing as many of them as got in their way, which makes them far worse than "simple" terrorists.  It makes them murderous sociopaths, and I wouldn't give reaper tech to sociopaths either.

So I really don't see the point of this debate in regards to whether or not they can be technically grouped under the terrorist banner.

[AngryFrozenWater]

leonia42 wrote...

It is ironic that the man being experimented on has the surname Grayson.

A lot of Cerberus' experiments follow this trend, lots of questionable and morally arguable decisions regarding human and alien life done in the attempt to prevent the loss of even more human lives once the Reapers show up.

You may not agree with their methods but don't question their motives.

Ok, now I'm starting to sound pro-Cerberus..

Of course I should question their motives. Cerberus was there before they knew about the reapers. Their initial goal had nothing to do with them. What I have seen from that period is questionable, to say the least. When the organization is threatened they'll act. If that means fighting the reapers then they'll be on my side for a while. It's in their own interest. They need to survive. When the reapers are no longer a threat then the whole circus starts all over again.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:36 .

[Dave of Canada]

Mesina2 wrote...

How is that morally gray?

Cerberus is studying to counter the Reaper's greatest weapon, therefor by understanding it we'd be able to possibly save countless lives from being indocrinated and those who'd be killed fighting indocrinated slaves/husks?

Oh right, I apologize.
We did learned something.


You can't use indoctrination for yourself, only Reapers can do it.
Wow, that's very useful to stop them.

Playing ignorant and dismissing the actual information learned from Retribution isn't great in terms of having, you know, a conversation?

[Leonia]

Mesina2 wrote...

You can't use indoctrination for yourself, only Reapers can do it.
Wow, that's very useful to stop them.

We learned that indoctrination creates a direct link between the one being indoctrinated and the Reapers.. even when they are as far away as dark space. That's pretty freaking useful intel right there. Granted, the experiments aren't done yet, you can't conclude from one test everything there is to know. We only know that we can try to use indoctrination ourselves, now we have to learn how to reverse the effects. There's more to do yet.

Modifié par leonia42, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:37 .

[Dave of Canada]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Of course I should question their motives. Cerberus was there before they knew about the reapers. Their initial goal had nothing to do with them.

They were created to combat the Reapers shortly after the First Contact War.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:38 .

[Pulletlamer]

leonia42 wrote...

If they don't try to understand indoctrination, how the hell are we supposed to protect ourselves from it in ME3?

It would be enough by knowing how not to get indoctrinated, that is, standing close/near reaper tech.

Experimenting on people to see what happens when they get indoctrinated is not defendable and unnecessary given the reason above. Of course that is my opinion.

As I see it, they're just doing these experiments to try to control indoctrination, and use it as a weapon.

The ethical research would be trying to search a defense for indoctrination. They're not doing that.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:40 .

[CroGamer002]

leonia42 wrote...

It is ironic that the man being experimented on has the surname Grayson.

A lot of Cerberus' experiments follow this trend, lots of questionable and morally arguable decisions regarding human and alien life done in the attempt to prevent the loss of even more human lives once the Reapers show up.

You may not agree with their methods but don't question their motives.

Ok, now I'm starting to sound pro-Cerberus..

Their motives in Retribution are defiantly not in stopping the Reapers.

Researching indoctrination helps nobody.



Also we already find out from Geth that indoctrination doesn't work on synthetics.

[The Elder King]

Arcian wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What's with all the talk of Paragon base-destroyers?

I'm mostly paragon and I gave TIM the base. Becasue it was utterly stupid to destroy it.
You don't just abadon enemy tech when the enemy is more advanced and about to invade you. Knowledge is power. Knowing your enemy is cruical.

Pragmatism has its price.

That's without considering that all Reaper technology (as in the tech they use, and not the tech they leave behind after each cycle) we've seen so far is parasitic and invasive in nature. You can't use their technology without becoming like them or being enslaved by them, and that defeats the entire purpose.

EDI and the Thanix cannon aren't parasitic or invasive in nature.
Anyway, I'm against experimentation of indoctrination on people. Could it help understand the Reapers and beat them?Sure. But I can't play the price of human lives. The same for keeping the CB (though I kept it in some Paragade playthrough). If we're going to suffer for this choice, so be it. I'm not going to use a technology that create mindless zombie or that was used to create a human Reaper with the death of thousands of people.
And about indoctrination. Mordin studied it and already discovered something about how it works, if we have to trus Maelon. Though I don't know how they have studied it.

Edit: I don't question Cerberus's reason though. Every research they did was to protect humanity and to have better possibilities on fighting the Reapers. I don't like them and I don't think that this reason justify them, but I understand their reasons.

Modifié par hhh89, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:41 .

[Leonia]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Of course I should question their motives. Cerberus was there before they knew about the reapers. Their initial goal had nothing to do with them. What I have seen from that period is questionable, to say the least. When the organization is threatened they'll act. If that means fighting the reapers then they'll be on my side for a while. It's in their own interest. They need to survive. When the reapers are no longer a threat then the whole circus starts all over again.

You should read the Evolution comic, Cerberus has everything to do with the Reapers and trying to understand them. Yes, their overall goal has always been human dominance, which I disagree with personally, and that means protecting humanity from the Reapers. But yes, the whole circus of undermining alien species would start again once the Reapers are out of the picture.

[Icinix]

Cerberus isn't evil - just their overly excessively pro-active methods.

Their greatest strength is also their greatest downfall - the fact they let nothing stand in the way of their goals. In the effort to empower humanity, they forget that which makes them human. Thats why they're so insidious - they don't realise how evil their methods have become.

[Dave of Canada]

Mesina2 wrote...

Their motives in Retribution are defiantly not in stopping the Reapers.

Researching indoctrination helps nobody.

... except researching indocrination is researching on how to stop the greatest weapon in the Reaper arsenal.

How many times must it be said?