1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Rinji the Bearded]

Paragon Shepard's whole "I'll save the galaxy, but I won't sacrifice human dignity in order to do it" bit told me that he/she destroyed the base because he/she believed nothing good would come out of researching it, and I can kind of see their view point on that. But then comes their tragedy when they are forced to kill hundreds of thousands of Batarians in Arrival in order to stop the Reapers there.

Paragons might have some of their pride intact but I think a lot of moral dilemmas are going to befall them in ME3 (unless the devs continue to reward them for being the boy/girl scout).

[Dave of Canada]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I don't care about BW's merchandise. I play the games. Nothing indicates there what you said there.

Selective canon isn't a good way to approach a discussion, otherwise I'd dismiss a lot of things.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:58 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Except for it being impossible, I do agree with the idea in theory even if you're not bringing it up as a real suggestion.
The thing is, when faced with total destruction of all life in the galaxy, I'd be willing to destroy countless species / planets to make sure there's still life in the galaxy after all. Hundreds of millions dead is better than everybody being dead. Who cares about morals if I'm dead?

How do you know it's impossible?  All the tech is presumably still there if you save the base.  Shepard doesn't sabotage much other than some feeding tubes.

To dig further, and for the sake of clarity, the galaxy is not faced with "total destruction of all life" within it.  Only the advanced species will be harvested.  Going against them has led to the destruction of at least one entire system that otherwise would have been harvested and then left for new life to grow.  What if that continued?  If the ends justified the means then perhaps siding with the reapers completely would be perfectly justifiable.  Sure, billions upon billions of people would die, but it would pave the way for new life to emerge instead of current civilizations stagnating and destroying their planets.

But not to get too far off track here.  The point was to explore your limits.  The thing that makes "pragmatism" essentially useless here is that you're not killing these innocent people for a guarantee.  Yes, killing millions would be better than killing billions, but only if you know for sure that that is the only alternative.  With Cerberus you have no idea.  A large number of their experiments have ended in terrific disaster, and there's no guarantee that the base will even be useful.  You're giving up morality for a roll of the dice.  Maybe something good will come from it; maybe you'll make things worse.

It's not really that "the end justifies the means"; it's that "the end could justify the means".  Do you put it all on black, or do you make more conservative bets?

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 15 juillet 2011 - 02:01 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Cerberus is obviously acting against the best interests of the galactic community. The correct course of action would be aiding the Reapers. Is submission not preferable to extinction?

[Pulletlamer]

leonia42 wrote...

The experiments weren't finished, you can't stop what you don't understand. Better to know how it works and find a way to weaken it than to not try at all.

Better to know how to not get indoctrinated (that is, not getting near reapers/reaper tech), than experimenting with thousands of lives just to see how it works 'cause I'm curiouz.

The only thing the illusive man wants is a weapon of his own to stop the reapers. In this case via indoctrination. That is, knowing to control indoctrination. Which is unethical.

[Leonia]

I think Saren proved that siding with the Reapers is an impossibility.

[Icinix]

What are you guys talking about anyway?

Humans have been studying indoctrination in the form of sleeper agents since the cold war.

We have hundreds of years of secret research ready to be put into use when the Reapers get here! Pfft.

[Leonia]

We simply don't know enough about indoctrination, we have a few guesses here and there on how long it takes but every individual would react differently to it. Regardless, if we're fighting the Reapers for any prolonged amount of time, everyone will be exposed to it on a consistent basis.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

leonia42 wrote...

I think Saren proved that siding with the Reapers is an impossibility.

Only if you want to side with them and still live when they're done.

You could side with them at the cost of your own life, and that'd be perfectly reasonable if you agree with their goals.

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Except indocrination is their greatest weapon? Turning entire nations against each other?

They are still fully capable of causing destruction, even if we somehow did find a way for everyone in the galaxy to counter indoctrination. And they have more use of normal slaves, since they aren't brainwashed and are capable of thinking on their own.

[Leonia]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I think Saren proved that siding with the Reapers is an impossibility.

Only if you want to side with them and still live when they're done.

You could side with them at the cost of your own life, and that'd be perfectly reasonable if you agree with their goals.

Fair enough, Doctor Kenson did that.. though she was indoctrinated so there is that.

[Rinji the Bearded]

leonia42 wrote...

We simply don't know enough about indoctrination, we have a few guesses here and there on how long it takes but every individual would react differently to it. Regardless, if we're fighting the Reapers for any prolonged amount of time, everyone will be exposed to it on a consistent basis.

And Cerberus knows the most about indoctrination, too.  Canonly.

[Someone With Mass]

Arcian wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

IN Reaper.
You need to be pretty close to Reaper devices to be indoctrinated.

Except the farmers who were far away from Sovereign (and Manuel) were being indocrinated.

Hell, Manuel GOT indocrinated. And he wasn't even close to where Sovereign landed.

No, Manuel was not indoctrinated. Nothing in the game indicates that. Indoctrination doesn't take a few hours like you seem to imply.

If it happens that fast, Shepard would've been a brain-dead husk at the end of Arrival.

[CroGamer002]

Dave of Canada wrote...

When it helps quicken the effects and allows for quicker study? Yes.

Great idea.
It's not like rushing something screw up something.
Oh right, Overlord.

Have fun doing that when there's Reapers invading the galaxy, dropping their artifacts all over the place.

Destroy the artifacts.

Don't get captured by Reapers, you're royally screwed either way.

Who says that isn't being studied either (well, before Anderson screws it up)? We saw the study of ONE Cerberus cell centered on studying indoctrination.

Cerberus only has half of dozen cells at one time.

So let's see what cells in ME2 and afterward Cerberus has( I only know for 2 real names):

Political cell
Military cell
Atlas cell
Lazarus cell
Derelict Reaper cell
Retribution cell

[zylas223]

I can see how Cerberus being ruthless can be good for entirety of galaxy, seeing Council's passiveness, but they sometimes seem to push it. Not just because "it's wrong", but because what they do weakens (or has potential to do so) the galaxy. For example, from what I hear about Overlord (sadly didn't play it), if it weren't for Shepard, we wouldn't have any real means of defense against reapers (someting about VI running rampage across the galaxy). Is it really worth it? You could say that they corrected themselves by ressurecting Shepard, but that's just pure chance.

[Dave of Canada]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

How do you know it's impossible?  All the tech is presumably still there if you save the base.  Shepard doesn't sabotage much other than some feeding tubes.

Cerberus is a group of 100-200 individuals. Collectors, a large number with a lot more stasis pods in a large ship, were harvesting humans for years and only created the Reaper baby. 100-200 individuals wouldn't be able to kidnap millions of people and melt them down to study the results before the Reapers arrive, nor would they be capable of doing so even if they had all the time in the world.

The Council would most likely investigate any of the Council races disappearing, meaning it would have to be limited to: Human, Batarian, Elcor, Hanar or whatever else.

Cerberus wouldn't kill millions of humans, they're fine with the occasional human casualty here or there but in the millions isn't something they'd do regardless of the circumstances. I'd assume a lot of the 100-200 operatives would drop out if we'd harvest humans.

Elcor are too difficult to transport in large quantities due to their extremely brute strength and large size, they'd probably be impossible to melt down in the Collector Base too.

Hanar would be too impossible to decently farm, they'd all be underwater on their homeworld and bringing them offworld would probably prove itself too difficult for Cerberus operatives no matter what equipment they'd have.

So that would leave the Batarians, though the Batarians are armed to the teeth and won't hesitate to shoot ships out of the sky without warning. So Cerberus operatives would have to kidnap millions of Batarians without being shot down, captured or spotted (as that would result in a huge mess for the Alliance).

You're giving up morality for a roll of the dice.  Maybe something good will come from it; maybe you'll make things worse.

I've covered this multiple times before in great length, though in short:
Cerberus is too small sized (to Shepard's knowledge) for the Base to be of any harm even in the worst case scenarios, the way they operate with different cells with assure that if indocrination would strike it would never hit all the cells at once and only inflict harm in isolated areas without any fear of TIM being indocrinated (as he's never at the actual projects except for once in Retribution).

They ruined this with the "CERBERUS IS INDOCRINATED" ME3 info, though it's still valid for thinking without metagame at the decision itself.

[Nozybidaj]

I'm not terribly annoyed because the only reason I blew the base was because the obvious options of giving the base to some one (Alliance/Council) who isn't a lunatic (TIM) wasn't available. Can't say I'm invested enough in the decision one way or the other for me to be annoyed by it.

[Leonia]

RinjiRenee wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

We simply don't know enough about indoctrination, we have a few guesses here and there on how long it takes but every individual would react differently to it. Regardless, if we're fighting the Reapers for any prolonged amount of time, everyone will be exposed to it on a consistent basis.

And Cerberus knows the most about indoctrination, too.  Canonly.

Indeed, perhaps we will have to "steal" their intel on indoctrination in ME3.. or would that be ethically questionable to steal useful data that could save millions of lives because a handful of human beings suffered in the process of getting those results? It would be deliciously fun if Cerberus has all the tools we need to fight the Reapers in ME3 but we will be forced to take it from them by force and use it for ourselves. Maybe we no longer work for them directly but if we are using the same information, we may as well be.

[Dave of Canada]

Arcian wrote...

No, Manuel was not indoctrinated. Nothing in the game indicates that. Indoctrination doesn't take a few hours like you seem to imply.

Ever do the Firewalker quests? You know the doctor you're tracking? The one who calls the Geth and kills his crew? That's Manuel. His dialogue implies he was on Eden Prime, it's the same voice actor and other stuff (some logs, I think) further prove it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 02:09 .

[CroGamer002]

Dave of Canada wrote...

But without indocrination, they don't have an army of slaves/infiltrators and husks. And we have more potential allies as everybody who isn't dead is helping us.

Dragon's teeth.

[Dave of Canada]

Mesina2 wrote...

Dragon's teeth.

Guess how those work? Indocrination.

[Twizz089]

Since Cerberus is the only people who had the tech to pass through the omega 4 and since they where the only ones who belived in the reapers in the first place, I dont "realistically" see how:

1. The council races would believe Shepard that such a base existed

or

2. If they belived him, develop the technology fast enough to pass through the omega 4 rally and claim the base before Cerberus claims it for themselves.

If Shepard didnt destroy the base there would be no way to stop Cerberus from seizing it

Modifié par Twizz089, 15 juillet 2011 - 02:13 .

[CroGamer002]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ever do the Firewalker quests? You know the doctor you're tracking? The one who calls the Geth and kills his crew? That's Manuel.

Not on Eden Prime, some other unknown Reaper artifact, it took days for indoctrination.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I don't care about BW's merchandise. I play the games. Nothing indicates there what you said there.

Selective canon isn't a good way to approach a discussion, otherwise I'd dismiss a lot of things.

Ah. Yes. "Reaprs". Does that ring any bells to you? Now go hunt for your canon. Ghehe.