1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Rinji the Bearded]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Why couldn't Shepherd give the information to aquire it to the Alliance...

I think he/she had to destroy everything that humanity could possibly get their hands on.

[Kaiser Shepard]

leonia42 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

And to be fair, potentially wiping out the Heretics at Heretic Station sort of makes the Overlord project moot.

But if Admiral Xen from the Migrant Fleet had got her hands on it.. oh boy.

Oh I'm sure Cerberus would love to take over True Geth for selective human domination.

What? They just wanted to eliminate the geth as a threat, just as the quarians want to do. Only they want to do it by controlling them instead of destroying them all. Which is what Admiral Xen (a quarian) wants to do. Who said anything about making the geth servants of humanity?

"Strength for Cerberus is strength for every human. Cerberus is humanity!"

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Though the project's end goal was reached, the geth are fully under control by David Archer and do not pose a threat to humanity and can be used against the Reapers as shock troopers to save human lives.

While it's methods were brutal and the end result could've been much worse, Cerberus dispatched Shepard to deal with it and he/she did so. The project itself, regardless of what could've been, is still a success in the end (unless Shepard decides to take David away, then it's a half-success because we've gained knowledge that the Geth can be hacked and we know how).

And I think the only reason Shepard was "hacked" was because of his/her cybernetic implants.

AI Hacking is a well-established feature already.  Unless the AI Hacking skill itself flies against the setting's lore, all that we "learn" is that it can be done on a wider scale for longer periods of time.  And if Overlord showed us how to achieve that then we have learned that the conditions aren't exactly run-of-the-mill, nor are they safe, nor are they guaranteed.  If you can call that a success then it is a success barely achieved and only achieved through the grace of a third, non-Cerberus party.

So we have multiple instances of Cerberus starting a project, the project wiping out the research cell, and then being forced to call in a third party to make sure the damage is contained.  Or, in the case of the rachni, luckily have a third party stumble over your screw-up and end it.

[Dave of Canada]

leonia42 wrote...

Well given the state that Grayson was in, it probably would have been an ultimate failure regardless. He still would have gone out of control eventually and wiped out that Cerberus team without Anderson's help.

Could've been possible, though I assume they would've simply have drugged him again and sent Kai Leng to finish him off. Maybe they had safety measures installed in the room itself that could've been activated from the study balcony.

[Leonia]

Dave of Canada wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Well given the state that Grayson was in, it probably would have been an ultimate failure regardless. He still would have gone out of control eventually and wiped out that Cerberus team without Anderson's help.

Could've been possible, though I assume they would've simply have drugged him again and sent Kai Leng to finish him off. Maybe they had safety measures installed in the room itself that could've been activated from the study balcony.

Too many maybes there for my liking but hey that's the fun of speculation.

[Kekkis]

If Reaper can take control of 5% of the Geth how someone can think, that they could control all of them with AI based on single human brain. Sure it can reason with few platforms, but rest of the Geth would just think you as a threat.

[alperez]

Ok so cerberus are not pure evil, just deluded and incompent and not to be trusted with tech they don't understand or have no problem using despite the inherent risks.

Even without the inherent risks in studying a base full of reaper tech despite knowing that doing so like so much else they do could come back and bite them in the ass, cerberus if they managed to succed would be the ones in control of whatever weapon or data they actually manage to get from the base.

Cerberus loyalists seem to think that this means they will willingly let Shepard have access to that data/weapon, use it only against the reapers and having that data/weapon in their hands would not be a threat to ever other life form in the galaxy.

Firstly just because your Shepard is a cerberus loyalist and did everything they asked and completely agree with their goals or idealogy, just because TIM uses Shepard to take out the collectors, What makes you think that once TIM has all the power in the universe he would actually give it to someone else?

Secondly even if all he does is use it to beat the reapers your still left in a position 1. absolute power is in the hands of someone whose goal is at odds with every other species in the galaxy and 2. what have you lost in order to win.

Practially every civilised nation deplores the use of chemical weapons the cost of using these weapons is considered something a civilised person should not be willing to pay, no matter what the potential outcome of not using them may be. But yet in what seems to be a similar scenario (using weapons where the cost of how you got them or what they might do is too high) people seem think this is a price worth paying.

I get we're supposed to be fighting for or very survival but all i can say is i'm glad some of the people who post here are in positions of no power.

[Dave of Canada]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

AI Hacking is a well-established feature already.  Unless the AI Hacking skill itself flies against the setting's lore, all that we "learn" is that it can be done on a wider scale for longer periods of time.

It's sort-of against the lore, though not really. Geth cannot be hacked because they have subroutines that make themselves become "unhacked" shortly afterward, so it fits with the AI Hacking ability lore-wise because the Geth simply turn back around after a few seconds and shoot you again.

Though the thing with David is that we've got wide-scale hack that the Geth subroutines cannot counter, allowing them to effectively be used as a mobile infantry and shock troopers. The Overlord project is a continuation of the Rachni project, serving the same purpose but with a more reliable platform for control instead of having to tame wild beasts (which Cerberus found out that the Rachni were not).

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 02:41 .

[Dave of Canada]

leonia42 wrote...

Too many maybes there for my liking but hey that's the fun of speculation.

Yeah, true. I'll just imagine that it wouldn't have ended badly if it wasn't for Anderson involving himself and screwing everything up. I'm sure killing the entire staff wasn't very helpful either when considering they couldn't point out and say "Oh hey, that guy is a Reaper thingy!".

Edit: 11am, time for bed. @_@

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 02:42 .

[CroGamer002]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Who controls the Geth.

What's the point if he's gonna kill anyone on sight?


Also Legion loyalty mission makes Overlord pointless.

And what's different about ME3? Nobody's prepared for the Reapers except small groups, Earth gets decimated and we've got people warring among each other instead of fighting the Reapers.

Simple, 2/3 of galaxy is not attacked and is preparing now.

In every other cycle they didn't even know what the hell even happen and couldn't do anything.


Also what group is prepared for Reaper attack?
Nobody is prepared for that attack.
You need armada of ships, some very powerful weapons and/or exploit some weakness in Reaper defence.

There's three cells spread into different projects, a dozen projects running at a time. Lazarus cell is one and it consists of the entire Lazarus staff that died bringing Shepard back and the entire Normandy crew.

There are only 2 projects in Lazarus Project.

Bring Shepard back to life.
Help Shepard in his/hers missions.

None were done at the same time.

There's possibly a few infiltrators in the political / military game, though they most likely aren't tied to a cell directly as each operative doesn't know the whereabouts of other cells and those people undercover probably know nothing to keep Cerberus safe should they be captured.

You do know Cerberus get's a lot of funding from some people in Alliance?

[Pedro Costa]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

It was pure [videogame] luck that godShep happened to be in the vicinity at the time of crisis.

And it'll be the same videogame luck that'll save the galaxy for those whose ethics and bleeding hearts stand in the way of actually getting as much intel and advanced technology as possible to defeat thousands (milions?) of technologically advanced sentient biomechanic warships who dictated how the galaxy would develop in order to maximize the efficiency of their invasion.

Not being necessarily pro-cerberus here, but people who think that no sacrifice is needed and that morals should be placed above all possible means and solutions presented in order to save a galaxy when said galaxy has played right into the foe's hands are being naive.

In my view of things, and without metagaming, we're fighting sentient beings far more advanced than ANYTHING any Citadel species has developed, further, those beings also made sure the galaxy would develop according to their terms.
And they aren't a few hundreds, they are milions, "enough to darken the skies of every world".
If there's anything, anything at all that can help give us an edge, help us getting a fighting chance against these already unsurmountable odds, why not take it?
Because you don't like an organisation? Because some hundreds of lives are more important than a whole galaxy?
Because you *hope* for a better solution down the path? You'd really leave the fate of a galaxy to blind luck because you oppose something that at least has some sort of probability to help you save it?

If we are to debate the validity of keeping/researching Reaper tech, then we have to metagame, because, honestly, as I said above, anyone who'd deny themselves a fighting chance because of their sense of what's right or wrong and leaving it to luck for finding an option that'll fit with their "morals" is being both selfish and naive.

Metagaming, seeing how renegades are always, consistently, screwed, the base will bite you in the arse and you should destroy it.
Personally, I blew it up simply because I'm a sucker for seeing Miri trusting Shepard over tIM.

[Kekkis]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

AI Hacking is a well-established feature already.  Unless the AI Hacking skill itself flies against the setting's lore, all that we "learn" is that it can be done on a wider scale for longer periods of time.

It's sort-of against the lore, though not really. Geth cannot be hacked because they have subroutines that make themselves become "unhacked" shortly afterward, so it fits with the AI Hacking ability lore-wise because the Geth simply turn back around after a few seconds and shoot you again.

Though the thing with David is that we've got wide-scale hack that the Geth subroutines cannot counter, allowing them to effectively be used as a mobile infantry and shock troopers. The Overlord project is a continuation of the Rachni project, serving the same purpose but with a more reliable platform for control instead of having to tame wild beasts (which Cerberus found out that the Rachni were not).

So David is more powerful than Reaper?

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ignoring a lot of arguments I could use, they wouldn't be able to use the Geth as troopers for their agenda. They'd have to possibly hand over the tech to the Alliance for it to see any use, seeing hundreds of Geth swarm into the battlefield to save human lives isn't really something that Cerberus has much use for considering their line of research and how they aren't going into any battlefields.

Yet, Cerberus knows nothing about how the geth works.

And that puny little VI? Good luck with taking over the entire geth network.

We're talking trillions of geth. I think they can adapt rather fast to something like the VI, or even turn it against Cerberus, considering that only a few thousand of them were enough to cause a ruckus.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Though the thing with David is that we've got wide-scale hack that the Geth subroutines cannot counter, allowing them to effectively be used as a mobile infantry and shock troopers. The Overlord project is a continuation of the Rachni project, serving the same purpose but with a more reliable platform for control instead of having to tame wild beasts (which Cerberus found out that the Rachni were not).

They've already created their own AI.  If all they wanted was shocktroopers then they could put a bunch of EDI clones into LOKI Mechs or develop their own hardsuits to contain the AI.

They didn't, though; they specifically wanted to hack the geth.  And while I don't personally believe that brainwashing a geth is immoral because they're just robots, somebody could make that argument that it is immoral.  It's not like the geth are some huge, dastardly threat to the galaxy; until Saren and Sovereign showed up they pretty much kept to themselves, and in ME2 they aren't exactly crawling all over the galaxy.

It seems like very, very little is gained from Overlord, especially considering the price.

[CroGamer002]

leonia42 wrote...

What? They just wanted to eliminate the geth as a threat, just as the quarians want to do. Only they want to do it by controlling them instead of destroying them all. Which is what Admiral Xen (a quarian) wants to do. Who said anything about making the geth servants of humanity?

Illusive Man: Against the Reapers and beyond.

Wouldn't Geth army be excellent from human domination.
Selective human domination.



Also Admiral Xen doesn't care for Geth factions, she wants to enslave Geth altogether and treats them as mere equipment, not sentient beings.

[nhsk]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Because you *hope* for a better solution down the path? You'd really leave the fate of a galaxy to blind luck because you oppose something that at least has some sort of probability to help you save it?

I would, some prices are not worth paying and I truly believe this is the case, I would rather blow up the council a million times and kill the last Rachni queen again than use that base.

[HarryDville]

I think the point of destroying the base was to stop the Illusive man from using it against you in ME3

[RobsanX]

Because that's the mission. Destroy the Collector Base. Don't need any other reason.

[Pedro Costa]

nhsk wrote...
I would, some prices are not worth paying and I truly believe this is the case, I would rather blow up the council a million times and kill the last Rachni queen again than use that base.

As long as you know you're more than likely sentencing the whole galaxy because you aren't willing to betray your own, personal set of morals, fine. (again, not metagaming)

It's not my place to dissuade you or force my own sense of ethics and when to throw them out of the window onto you.

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 15 juillet 2011 - 02:53 .

[nhsk]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

nhsk wrote...
I would, some prices are not worth paying and I truly believe this is the case, I would rather blow up the council a million times and kill the last Rachni queen again than use that base.

As long as you know you're more than likely sentencing the whole galaxy because you aren't willing to betray your own, personal set of morals, fine. (again, not metagaming)

Yeah well, I also believe that the technological progress gained from that base is Red-shirt tech, so the Reapers are probably better equipped so to speak.
And that the Reapers can shut down technological marvels from that base, much more easily, than tech we gained from elsewhere. So it would be leading further down a road we don't need and at the time I blew it up, I had not played Arrival yet, so I couldn't be sure if it was 1 year from now, 2 years from now or 10 years from now, with plenty of times to find alternatives.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

DarkLord_PT wrote...
Not being necessarily pro-cerberus here, but people who think that no sacrifice is needed and that morals should be placed above all possible means and solutions presented in order to save a galaxy when said galaxy has played right into the foe's hands are being naive.

And they aren't a few hundreds, they are milions, "enough to darken the skies of every world".
If there's anything, anything at all that can help give us an edge, help us getting a fighting chance against these already unsurmountable odds, why not take it?
Because you don't like an organisation? Because some hundreds of lives are more important than a whole galaxy?
Because you *hope* for a better solution down the path? You'd really leave the fate of a galaxy to blind luck because you oppose something that at least has some sort of probability to help you save it?

If we are to debate the validity of keeping/researching Reaper tech, then we have to metagame, because, honestly, as I said above, anyone who'd deny themselves a fighting chance because of their sense of what's right or wrong and leaving it to luck for finding an option that'll fit with their "morals" is being both selfish and naive.

That's actually my point; giving the base to Cerberus is just as much blind luck as destroying it.  In destroying it you are eliminating another potential threat, which can be just as useful as a potential gain.

It's a gamble either way.  Anyone who thinks a single base will provide a breakthrough that will help kill millions of hugely advanced sentient starships is arguably just as naive as those who pick the paragon option just because it's paragon.  And if you are meta-gaming then you have to realize that the base can't possibly be that important anyways, since the ending of ME3 will not be based or heavily dependent on a single choice from a different game.

I'm not against studying the base.  I am against giving reaper tech to Cerberus, who has demonstrated numerous times that they can't handle projects of that scope.  My Shepard destroys a potential risk.
And when my Shepard saves the Council she isn't really saving the Council.  She is saving the Destiny Ascension, whose total crew count ends up being about 3 times the size of the amount of human lives lost in saving it.

So you can argue that the paragons don't get "punished" enough for making the decisions that you don't think are practical or are "naive", but I can just as quickly point out that renegades shouldn't be able to walk around shooting people in the foot, assaulting unarmed civilians, and the like and not have any repercussions for that.

[CroGamer002]

Just saw this.




All hail Cerberus.

[leggywillow]

What was the point in destroying the Collector Base?!  My Shep's motivation to do anything, of course:

BLOW UP ALL THE THINGS!

[Kekkis]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

nhsk wrote...
I would, some prices are not worth paying and I truly believe this is the case, I would rather blow up the council a million times and kill the last Rachni queen again than use that base.

As long as you know you're more than likely sentencing the whole galaxy because you aren't willing to betray your own, personal set of morals, fine. (again, not metagaming)

It's not my place to dissuade you or force my own sense of ethics and when to throw them out of the window onto you.

It´s so much better to keep that base and let Reapers take it back. Human reaper Mk. II thanks you.

[Labrev]

Because it's the safer thing to do.

In truth, destroying the base should have been a "renegade" option. If you save it, it is with the intent to save lives. If you destroy it, you have reneged your alliance with Cerberus and stuck to the mission.