1939 réponses à ce sujet

[XyleJKH]

nhsk wrote...

For me it was a small piece of philosophy that BW taught me long ago, a quote from Baldurs Gate:

"He who fights with monsters should look to that he himself does not become a monster.. when you gaze long enough into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

And I don't trust humanity to use such technology wisely, neither Cerberus nor the Alliance.

Edit: Oh and Legion was kind enough to remind me about my Sovereign conversation in ME1 a mission earlier about multiple paths to a certain technological level - Giving the base to Cerberus would only further Reaper goals, any technology gained from Reapers can probably with no greater effort be shut down by Reapers.

Bravo. Couldn't have said it better myself. I mean almost all reaper technology is an abomination. The exception being the relays and the citadel. Just as legion said.

[The Elder King]

XyleJKH wrote...

nhsk wrote...

For me it was a small piece of philosophy that BW taught me long ago, a quote from Baldurs Gate:

"He who fights with monsters should look to that he himself does not become a monster.. when you gaze long enough into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

And I don't trust humanity to use such technology wisely, neither Cerberus nor the Alliance.

Edit: Oh and Legion was kind enough to remind me about my Sovereign conversation in ME1 a mission earlier about multiple paths to a certain technological level - Giving the base to Cerberus would only further Reaper goals, any technology gained from Reapers can probably with no greater effort be shut down by Reapers.

Bravo. Couldn't have said it better myself. I mean almost all reaper technology is an abomination. The exception being the relays and the citadel. Just as legion said.

EDI? The Thanix Cannon?. Though I mostly agree with nhsk about the dialogue with Legion.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Those weird husks on Omega? I'll bet those were a Christmas gift from the Illusive Man. You know what I got for Christmas? It was a banner ****ing year at the old Bender family. I got a carton of cigarettes. The old man grabbed me and said "Hey, smoke up Johnny."

Jeez, nobody got the totally random Breakfast Club reference. Way to make me sad, guys.

[Son of Illusive Man]

Here's a good example from history of giving weapons to bad people based on the "enemy of an enemy" principle:

During the Cold War, the U.S. armed terrorists, like the Taliban, who were fighting the Soviets in the Middle East, without much foresight, so that we would win the war.  This had little effect on the Soviets, who eventually collapsed because of overstretching and financial reasons.  Mind you, these people could have wiped out America.  They had the stockpiles to wipe out the rest of humanity besides their little country.

It turns out, the tech and weapons we gave the terrorists had no effect on our Soviet enemies.  But after we emerged from the Cold War victorious, guess who used those very same weapons, with a much greater effect on US?

You guessed it.

Someone With Mass wrote...
Because Collector technology is so much like Reaper technology, right?

That's even a worse argument for keeping the tech.

The Collectors were once conquered by the Reapers, as Protheans.  Why would their tech do anything against the Reapers, who easily defeated them?

Inverness Moon wrote...
The derelict reaper was shot with a powerfule enough weapon to carve a canyon into a planet visible from space. You really don't know what causes indoctrination, so you can't know at what point it stops working without testing.

Dormant =/= Dead

By the way, don't forget EDI is made from reaper tech. You'd better fry her AI core before she goes all "vanguard of your destruction" on your ass.

Reverse engineered from dead reaper tech

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
And for those who view Cerberus as such a terrible group... how do you explain Shepard working with them to save just humans (not even all humans... just 'the lost') but not willing to work with them to save the entire galaxy... (humans too).

The difference is between working WITH them, and handing them the base with no supervision.

Inverness Moon wrote...
 Project Overlord also proved that the goal as possible.

It also nearly shut down every networked system in the galaxy.  It's not like AI, automated defense systems, communications, or any other tech-reliant service could be useful when the Reapers arrive is it?  It's not like humans, by this point, have become reliant on technology....

Nah, couldn't possibly do any harm....

Inverness Moon wrote...
Now, do you have more issues with the reapers or Cerberus?

I could quite easily see a situation in which, after Shepard defeats the Reapers without help from Cerberus, Cerberus finds a way to create Reapers in hopes to dominate the galaxy.  They'll start out controlled, like the Geth, but eventually rebel.  We don't know that they'll be as peaceful and isolationist as the geth, however.

The Collector Base, is like giving Cerberus a Rachni Queen egg - except a Reaper instead of a Rachni.  It's a ticking time bomb.

Inverness Moon wrote...
Human dominance does not mean commiting genocide on other races. That is cliche villain thinking. What it means is being the biggest kid on the block, because TIM believes military strength among other things will help protect humanity. (This is supported in part by the events in Revelation)

More likely than human dominance is Cerberus getting us all killed by performing a dumb-ass experiment without 

I will say it again.  In the Mass Effect world where we are so reliant on technology, Overlord could have effectively killed us, or set us back to pre-spaceflight technology.  

[Son of Illusive Man]

Hellbound555 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

I dont agree with his methods.

And that is Paragon Shepard's perogative.  In his or her world, the ends never justify the means.  The way BioWare writes the outcomes for things, this is often proven to be a risk-free ethical position in Mass Effect 1-2. 

However, there are two issues with this:

1) It assumes knowledge of consequences as written in the ME1-2 universe, that things do turn out okay all the time ought not to be part of any discussion of the universe that purports to be either in character, or even describe self-insert decisionmaking.  As if we were indeed there making that decision, we couldn't know that we had BioWare writers to make sure what we did worked out.

2) It assumes that Mass Effect 3 will follow the same formula of essentially letting Paragons take the riskier looking road and still have an easy path to the objective.  This is not assured.  

There are more than 1 solution to solve a problem. unless if its a math problem.

Quadratic equations?  Lol

[Labrev]

Mesina2 wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Because it's the safer thing to do.

In truth, destroying the base should have been a "renegade" option. If you save it, it is with the intent to save lives. If you destroy it, you have reneged your alliance with Cerberus and stuck to the mission.

That makes no sense.

IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT YOU THINK, UGLY SHEPARD!!!!!1111111111111

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 15 juillet 2011 - 04:45 .

[J DAWG13yo]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Those weird husks on Omega? I'll bet those were a Christmas gift from the Illusive Man. You know what I got for Christmas? It was a banner ****ing year at the old Bender family. I got a carton of cigarettes. The old man grabbed me and said "Hey, smoke up Johnny."

Jeez, nobody got the totally random Breakfast Club reference. Way to make me sad, guys.

Lol! I got the quote.

[Benchpress610]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

What was the point in destroying the Collector Base?!  My Shep's motivation to do anything, of course:

BLOW UP ALL THE THINGS!

We all know Michael Bay is Shepard's ancestor.

But seriously, after Overlord, Jack's backstory, and every other cell that went "rogue" under TIM's watch, how the hell am I suppose to trust Cerberus with Reaper Technology that also has the possibility of indoctrinating them? I'm not destroying the base because of my ethics or I'm trying to save the morals of the human race. I'm destroying it because Cerberus is full of idiots who's experiments constantly blow up in their face, and with the Reaper Invasion coming up, I have no time to clean up after more of Cerberus' messes.

That's the best explanation i've heard so far

[sTrYkZ1LLa]

No effect on the soviets? Wow that's a stretch they were forced to leave in shame and financially stretched because of us arming the terrorist not to mention it demoralized the soviet people back home which arguably speed up their collapse. The problem wasn't the weapon we gave the terrorist the problem was we accomplished our goals and left a power vacuum that favored or shady allies leading to the Taliban to be the only group capable of restoring order post occupation. Mutual assured destruction is what kept them from launching nukes nothing else. But I could be wrong since I was only 3 at the time.

[Son of Illusive Man]

sTrYkZ1LLa wrote...

No effect on the soviets? Wow that's a stretch they were forced to leave in shame and financially stretched because of us arming the terrorist not to mention it demoralized the soviet people back home which arguably speed up their collapse. The problem wasn't the weapon we gave the terrorist the problem was we accomplished our goals and left a power vacuum that favored or shady allies leading to the Taliban to be the only group capable of restoring order post occupation. Mutual assured destruction is what kept them from launching nukes nothing else. But I could be wrong since I was only 3 at the time.

Little to no effect.

The Soviets would have been forced to leave in shame anyways.  You think that was the single factor that made the Afghanis win?  The weapons didn't  really do A LOT against the Soviets, although they did help a little.  However, they were a lot more effective when used agsinst us.

Also, leaving Cerberus with the weapons, would leave just as much of a power problem as you say.  The tech could be absolutely useless against the Reapers, but still be powerful to dominate the galaxy.  

I wasn't saying that the Soviets were going to launch the nukes, just trying to demonstrate the power they had.  They, as with the Reapers, could wipe out all human life.

Saphra Deden wrote...
If your answer is yes then I'd like you to explain why because I think that's monstrous. This coming from someone who totally would liquify sentient beings to build a Reaper A.I. and study how it works. I'd start with vorcha though. Nobody would miss them. 

This is sounding awfully genocidal...

Dave of Canada wrote...
The Base is unnecessary, you kept it.
Everybody has Reaper tech from Reaper corpses anyway, the difference is that Cerberus managed to study it faster. Whether this makes a difference or not cannot be seen.

What?  It makes no difference that Cerberus got it first?

You think it made no difference that US discovered atomic bombs before Germany?  Everyone got them in the end, yes.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ter·ror·ism
"The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims"

I'd say that fits rather nicely with what Cerberus is doing.

With that definition, almost every group in ME is a terrorist.

With that definition, every government in the real world today is a terrorist organization too.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

You assume that Cerberus will help you. The base it's not avaibable to you. It's for Cerberus. That's the problem.

You don't have the base.

Except Cerberus is your ally, has been providing you with technology / resources and intel. They've been the only people supporting you through all of Mass Effect 2. They've been reverse engineering left over Collector technology and sending it's results to you.

Why would Shepard suddenly assume this would stop?

You know the whole, "I quit.  Don't get in my way." dialogue that takes place at the end of ME2 regrdless of your decision.

leonia42 wrote...
Sure, the quarians see it as an attack, no question about that.. Tali makes that pretty clear. But that doesn't mean it WAS an attack or was supposed to be an attempt to undermine the Flotilla's government. The quarians got in the way, that was all. 

Qurians being whiny ****es with victim complexes.  What's new?

zylas223 wrote...

I guess using the "terrorist" word to describe someone clouds the judgement of their actions, considering the current state of the world. So some may consider Cerberus "evil because they are terrorists", instead of "terrorists because they are evil". I wonder if anyone will understand what I meant to say

My point is, we should evaluate their actions and categorise them based on the deeds, instead of labeling them as terrorist and then fitting their actions into definitions.

I totally understand what you mean.  While terrorists are bad, the word "terrorist" is just a label.  We hate Al-Qaeda because they are the ones who bombed WTC, making them terrorists.  They're not just terrorists because we hate them.

"A rose by any other name"

Modifié par Son of Illusive Man, 15 juillet 2011 - 06:05 .

[GodWood]

XyleJKH wrote...
Bravo. Couldn't have said it better myself. I mean almost all reaper technology is an abomination. The exception being the relays and the citadel. Just as legion said.

"Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

- Legion

[sTrYkZ1LLa]

The weapons we provided made the soviets change their strategy completely forcing them into a war of attrition. They could have rolled over the afghans easily like they were expecting to but our weapons like rocket propelled grenades and surface to air missiles and modern communication mixed with guerilla tactics broke them. We have been in Afghanistan for years and have taken less casualties Soviets lost upward of 15 thousand with 30+ thousand wounded In 9 years. we Lost 12 thousand in 10 years and we are leaving on our terms. I don't get how they were more effective on us is all I'm saying.

[nhsk]

The Flotilla is in its current state a independent nation with all the rights that follow that. Foreign troops going in on some "spec-op" mission that nearly destroys one of their cities... Well, I'm not sure any nation would tolerate that.

[zylas223]

@nhsk
That's one way of seeing it... but look at it from other point of view. They didn't target quarian ship - for them, it was merely the location of the target they wanted to reclaim. I am sure they would attack a city on Earth just as eagerly to get the target back if need be. Besides, it was relatively small scale, so it was more like a criminal act instead of act of war, since they are not part of military (as far as I know).

Modifié par zylas223, 15 juillet 2011 - 06:34 .

[Son of Illusive Man]

DarkLord_PT wrote...
If there's anything, anything at all that can help give us an edge, help us getting a fighting chance against these already unsurmountable odds, why not take it?
Because you don't like an organisation? Because some hundreds of lives are more important than a whole galaxy?
Because you *hope* for a better solution down the path? You'd really leave the fate of a galaxy to blind luck because you oppose something that at least has some sort of probability to help you save it?

As I mentioned, blowing up the base is an option that even the ruthless pragmatic should take, becuse Cerberus, simply has a history of failure.  Their projects always somehow get ****ed up and cause more harm thn good.  Overlord itself could have killed off all life in the galaxy if Shepard had not been lucky enough to be in the area to stop it.

Lazarus is one of the only successful projects, and it was a couple bullets away from failure.

sTrYkZ1LLa wrote...

The weapons we provided made the soviets change their strategy completely forcing them into a war of attrition. They could have rolled over the afghans easily like they were expecting to but our weapons like rocket propelled grenades and surface to air missiles and modern communication mixed with guerilla tactics broke them. We have been in Afghanistan for years and have taken less casualties Soviets lost upward of 15 thousand with 30+ thousand wounded In 9 years. we Lost 12 thousand in 10 years and we are leaving on our terms. I don't get how they were more effective on us is all I'm saying.

Are you implying that guerilla tactics weren't known already?  The Russian-Afghan war began in 1979.  The Vietnamese used some of the same tactics 2 decades before.  They could not have just rolled over the Afghans without causing massive civilian casualties and gaining condemnation.  We just gave them some more explosive power.

I'm not talking about solely the Afghan war casualties.  The weapons have spread through terrorist organizations all over the Middle-East, and the training.  Some of the same people trained by the US have gone on to plot domestic attacks on both the US and UK.

[nhsk]

zylas223 wrote...

@nhsk
That's one way of seeing it... but look at it from other point of view. They didn't target quarian ship - for them, it was merely the location of the target they wanted to reclaim. I am sure they would attack a city on Earth just as eagerly to get the target back if need be. Besides, it was relatively small scale, so it was more like a criminal act instead of act of war, since they are not part of military (as far as I know).

And if they did attack a city on Earth wouldn't you call them terrorists?

[Bad King]

May as well keep it. If it turns out to be a problem, then so be it- it will be only a minor hindrance when reapers are slaughtering people in the millions (or pehaps billions) across the galaxy. However if it turns out to be an advantage, it could turn out to be significantly advantagous.

[Kaiser Shepard]

GodWood wrote...

XyleJKH wrote...
Bravo. Couldn't have said it better myself. I mean almost all reaper technology is an abomination. The exception being the relays and the citadel. Just as legion said.

"Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

- Legion

And what does he say post-SM?

nhsk wrote...

zylas223 wrote...

@nhsk
That's one way of seeing it... but look at it from other point of view. They didn't target quarian ship - for them, it was merely the location of the target they wanted to reclaim. I am sure they would attack a city on Earth just as eagerly to get the target back if need be. Besides, it was relatively small scale, so it was more like a criminal act instead of act of war, since they are not part of military (as far as I know).

And if they did attack a city on Earth wouldn't you call them terrorists?

Not this crap again... :')

[bobthecrusher]

Well, I didn't really trust Cerburus, mainly because every time they have any piece of alien Tech they **** it up and lose the crew in charge. i wasn't willing to take the risk that the Collectors would survive in any way shape or form, so I destroyed the base. TIM also had plans to use the tech as a weapon against, not the reapers, but against other species. If you give him the Tech, it's basically handing him a reaper and saying 'please be good, I know how terrorists sometimes are with these things'. The risks of keeping it outweighed the potential benefits.

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm annoyed, and I didn't even make this choice. You may be annoyed as well. And together, we'll be pair annoyed.

If the best justifications for destroying the Collector Base were to protect people from what was inside, and destroying it does not do that... was there still good reason to do so?

As a paragon, let me say, I blow up the base because the only alternative is to give it to Cerberus.  Even if their projects weren't grossly unethical and cruel, they seem to go horrifically  wrong on a regular basis.  Seriously I suspect they lose at least three operatives per morning just making coffee for the cell.

Now if it turns out that TIM was able to salvage enough tech to play Reaper Man, well, I tried.  But it's not like many of my other choices in the ME series so far have amounted to much anyway.  At least my Shepard's conscience is clean.

Modifié par iakus, 15 juillet 2011 - 06:58 .

[sTrYkZ1LLa]

Nobody said guerilla tactics were not known we based this plan off the Vietnam model with the intent of getting the same results. They absolutely could have rolled the afghans over who would condem them openly without fear of nuclear tensions the U.N haha. Why do you think the USA went that route to begin with. I just think your over estimating the assistance we gave them to believe they have been more effective on us. I think what you are trying to say is some off those we trained came back to haunt us. I agree with that.

[The Elder King]

GodWood wrote...

XyleJKH wrote...
Bravo. Couldn't have said it better myself. I mean almost all reaper technology is an abomination. The exception being the relays and the citadel. Just as legion said.

"Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

- Legion

He said the contrary after the mission. The same with Mordin. So I can't say what are their opinion on the CB.

[nhsk]

iakus wrote...

Now if it turns out that TIM was able to salvage enough tech to play Reaper Man, well, I tried.  But it's not like many of my other choices in the ME series so far have amounted to much anyway.  At least my Shepard's conscience is clean.

And that is all we can aspire to, if you taught garrus to be paragon in ME1 anyway

You can't control others reaction, but you can control how you approach a problem or something like that

[Bad King]

bobthecrusher wrote...

Well, I didn't really trust Cerburus, mainly because every time they have any piece of alien Tech they **** it up and lose the crew in charge. i wasn't willing to take the risk that the Collectors would survive in any way shape or form, so I destroyed the base.

Actually Cerberus have already successfully dabbled with captured collector technology. See the Collector assault rifle and Collector armor for more info.

[nhsk]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Not this crap again... :')

I take that as a "yes I would but I'm to stubborn to admit it"

Modifié par nhsk, 15 juillet 2011 - 07:49 .