1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Trying to achieve, yes.

So you agree that there's a good that Cerberus strives to achieve regardless of their methods? Good.

And if they're trying to find a way to combat the Reapers, they're doing it wrong.

Because I doubt a 2 kilometer long dreadnought will give a damn about some puny biotic on the ground it can kill if it takes a misstep.

The Subject Zero project wasn't simply to create a super powered Biotic, though. While that was one of the end results and Jack did help in stopping the Collectors, the key information that was achieved is what works to strengthen biotics and what kills them.

The very same procedures that Jack went through is now done by the Ascension project to strengthen human biotic potential (Gillian is still a guinea pig to find out how to make them even stronger, which assuming from the book description, worked). Biotics are powerful compared to the run-of-the-mill soldier and having the option does help against the Reapers because we're going to be fighting indoctrinated people who have that ability themselves. (IIRC, Grayson developed biotic abilities after being reaperfied.)

[Dave of Canada]

bobobo878 wrote...

Eyup, otherwise I wouldn't know what I was talking about. It may or may not have been the OP's intention, but his thread has more than it's fair share of paragon/renegade bickering.

It's more about a discussion on Cerberus rather than paragon/renegade bickering from "butthurt" people.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 juillet 2011 - 01:02 .

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So you agree that there's a good that Cerberus strives to achieve regardless of their methods? Good.

Grasping at every straw, I see. How sad.

[ObserverStatus]

Dave of Canada wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Eyup, otherwise I wouldn't know what I was talking about. It may or may not have been the OP's intention, but his thread has more than it's fair share of paragon/renegade bickering.

It's more about a discussion on Cerberus rather than paragon/renegade bickering from "butthurt" people.

Well, you should have read the whole thread, than you would have known to which elements of it I was reacting.

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Grasping at every straw, I see. How sad.

Just trying to make sure you're not dismissing Cerberus end goals instead of pretending they don't have any, I don't see how this is "grasping at straws".

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Just trying to make sure you're not dismissing Cerberus end goals instead of pretending they don't have any, I don't see how this is "grasping at straws".

Nope. And you never will.

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Nope. And you never will.

Okay, good to know you're going to be unreasonable again.

[JamieCOTC]

Cerberus is wrong.  A roofer listens to his heart, not his wallet. 

[ObserverStatus]

To answer the OP's question, the point of the decision at the end of ME2 was to give players the option to deprive themselves of a tool that they would otherwise be able to utilize after making a greasy smear out of tIM in ME3.

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The Alliance and the Council would say that they are, and I'd trust the word of the government more than the word of the terrorists which are saying that they're torturing kids for the greater good.

You do realize that the government thinks the reapers don't exist and Cerberus does?

Edit:

Threads like these always show me the difference between people who save the base and people who destroy it so far as quality of argument and behavior goes.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 16 juillet 2011 - 01:20 .

[Volus Warlord]

Your heart is weak, and your heart may deceive you...

[Praetor Knight]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

The Alliance and the Council would say that they are, and I'd trust the word of the government more than the word of the terrorists which are saying that they're torturing kids for the greater good.

You do realize that the government thinks the reapers don't exist and Cerberus does?

Wait, TIM knows.

Cerberus does his bidding.

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...
You do realize that the government thinks the reapers don't exist and Cerberus does?

The Alliance does too.

And there's something called "public disturbance". Telling everyone about the ancient machine race that's periodically wiping out all advanced life in the galaxy won't exactly end with cheers and applause.

Maybe that's why the Council doesn't want to openly recognize the Reapers' existence?

[ObserverStatus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
You do realize that the government thinks the reapers don't exist and Cerberus does?

The Alliance does too.

And there's something called "public disturbance". Telling everyone about the ancient machine race that's periodically wiping out all advanced life in the galaxy won't exactly end with cheers and applause.

Maybe that's why the Council doesn't want to openly recognize the Reapers' existence?

Right, because causing a public disturbance is for more dangerous than not doing anything about it.

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
You do realize that the government thinks the reapers don't exist and Cerberus does?

The Alliance does too.

And there's something called "public disturbance". Telling everyone about the ancient machine race that's periodically wiping out all advanced life in the galaxy won't exactly end with cheers and applause.

Maybe that's why the Council doesn't want to openly recognize the Reapers' existence?

There is quite a difference from not publically announcing it and denying reality. We have no evidence that anything is going on behind the scenes. Considerin the Council's track record in ME1, I'm going to believe they're not doing anything until I have proof otherwise.

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The Alliance does too.

And there's something called "public disturbance". Telling everyone about the ancient machine race that's periodically wiping out all advanced life in the galaxy won't exactly end with cheers and applause.

Maybe that's why the Council doesn't want to openly recognize the Reapers' existence?

Denying them in the backroom with only Shepard present proves they aren't simply trying to cover it up for the public.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 juillet 2011 - 01:26 .

[Chromie]

Inverness Moon wrote...
You do realize that the government thinks the reapers don't exist and Cerberus does?

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...
There is quite a difference from not publically announcing it and denying reality. We have no evidence that anything is going on behind the scenes. Considerin the Council's track record in ME1, I'm going to believe they're not doing anything until I have proof otherwise.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence...

[Inverness Moon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well we do have their own statements told directly to us, by them, that the Reapers aren't real.

If that isn't evidence that they aren't doing anything about it then I don't know what is.

Basically, this.

[TMA LIVE]

Honestly, at this point, I think the "keeping" or "destroying" choice has now become pointless, where the same thing happens regardless. The only thing I can think of that's more of an edge is that destroying the base means Cerberus is either less stronger, and the Reapers no longer have a Reaper factory.

Because if you kept it for evidence, it apparently doesn't matter, with Shepard's trial being the time of attack.

If you kept it for advancement, Cerberus has it, and now has done "science gone wrong" with it. And now using whatever power they gain from it to use against you.

If you kept it for knowledge, well you still don't have that. And for those who say "Well, we could still grab that knowledge from the base", I imagine that's at the end game when we're taking down Cerberus. And unless that knowledge is "shoot here to kill Reapers" or "use this virus to kill Reapers" or "hit this mother ship to kill them all" or "hit this botton to control all Husks", that knowledge isn't going to be worth much. Because anything else needs to be manufactured. And I don't think we got the time or resources to do that at the end of the game. And the Reapers will be taken out either way despite destroying the base.

Advance humanity wise, I imagine you'd get the same from the dead remains of Reapers and Husks. The only upside or downside is that, A) You have a working Reaper Factory. You have a "Make Reaper monsters" Factory. And C) Knowledge that the other races don't have a head start on. So you can use all this to take them over eventually. Which is bad if you don't like tyranny over aliens.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 16 juillet 2011 - 02:24 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Well we do have their own statements told directly to us, by them, that the Reapers aren't real.

If that isn't evidence that they aren't doing anything about it then I don't know what is.

Because politicians are always telling the truth.

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Because politicians are always telling the truth.

Except we have no evidence that they're lieing either from them or from reports of any unusual actions from the governments. Not even the Shadow Broker's files showed evidence of anything.

[SnakeStrike8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


Was it to destroy the corrupt knowledge and secrets, to 'preserve the soul of our species'? 

Even the Shadow Broker intended to cross the relay and learn as much as possible... and the Reapers arrival will mean Reaper tech for everyone (if we survive). Paragon Shepard wasn't keeping the technology from people, just delaying it.

Was it to deny Cerberus any Reaper technology? 

Regardless of the decision, enough Reaper and Collector technology exists for Cerberus to craft its own Reaper-technology experiment: the effects of Retribution, and the Grayson experiments.

Was it to stop Cerberus from hurting other species with and for the technology inside? 

The upcoming comic Invasion features Cerberus unleashing a new creation from beyond the Omega 4 relay into the streets of Omega, a creation that may wipe out Aria herself.

Was it to stop Cerberus from indoctrinating itself?

Well, Mass Effect 3's E3 demos rather addressed how well that worked.

Was it because blown up Reaper technology is safe Reaper technology?

I should point out that every single one of these rhetorical responses hinge on knowledge that Shepard-Commander couldn't have had at the time. He knew nothing about what happens in Retribution, has never heard of Grayson, has no knowledge about upcoming Cerberus slayer-things, cannot divine Cerberus' soon-to-be-indoctrinated nature and does not know that the Illusive Man as been fingering Reaper machinery. At the time, if he wanted to destroy the base to keep it out of Cerberus' hands, he would have been perfectly justified in that decision based on his lack of knowledge about outside material. After the fact, when we (and thus, he) finds out in ME 3 that Cerberus has been indoctrinated, he can say something like: "Well, bollocks. Those poofters got it anyway!"
Until then, destroying the base to keep it away from Cerberus sounds like a pretty good paragon option to me.