1939 réponses à ce sujet

[xassantex]

i destroy it because Shep is remaining faithful to the original plan of making sure Collectors would never come back. To ask him to change his mind in barely one minute as he's about to plant the bomb is bad strategy . It stinks of hypocrisy from TIM 's part - it's obvious TIM had this plan in mind from the start but wouldn't share it with Shepard .
And shepard has had enough warnings to be wary of Cerberus ( from Tali, Anderson, Kaidan, Jack and others ) , this sudden feeling of having been used again as a puppet by TIM is "the straw that broke the camel's back " ...

you may find flaws in my reasoning, but it sounds true to me in the heat of the moment. 

Also, if you save the Collector Base, once the Reapers make it to the relays, you'd think one of them will take the omega 4 .. "hi there, i was just passing by and thought i'd drop in to , well.... kill you all  " . 

Modifié par xassantex, 16 juillet 2011 - 02:06 .

[Nizzemancer]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Let it never be said I can't be offended on the behalf of Paragons everywhere. If there's one choice which seems to be a non-choice for the Paragons, a significant choice which makes no apparent difference... the Collector Base may well be that choice. Given all the post-ME2 side material, it's increasingly hard to justify destroying the base as anything but a petty 'stick it to TIM' gesture... and believe it or not, I want people to have other reasons avaiable for taking actions.



Was it to destroy the corrupt knowledge and secrets, to 'preserve the soul of our species'? 

Even the Shadow Broker intended to cross the relay and learn as much as possible... and the Reapers arrival will mean Reaper tech for everyone (if we survive). Paragon Shepard wasn't keeping the technology from people, just delaying it.



Was it to deny Cerberus any Reaper technology? 

Regardless of the decision, enough Reaper and Collector technology exists for Cerberus to craft its own Reaper-technology experiment: the effects of Retribution, and the Grayson experiments.



Was it to stop Cerberus from hurting other species with and for the technology inside? 

The upcoming comic Invasion features Cerberus unleashing a new creation from beyond the Omega 4 relay into the streets of Omega, a creation that may wipe out Aria herself.



Was it to stop Cerberus from indoctrinating itself?

Well, Mass Effect 3's E3 demos rather addressed how well that worked.



Was it because blown up Reaper technology is safe Reaper technology?

Well, given all of the above...



I'm annoyed, and I didn't even make this choice. You may be annoyed as well. And together, we'll be pair annoyed.

If the best justifications for destroying the Collector Base were to protect people from what was inside, and destroying it does not do that... was there still good reason to do so?

It's a little lesson I learned from Aliens...

Ripley: Just tell me one thing, Burke. You're going out there to destroy them,
right? Not to study. Not to bring back. But to wipe them out.
Burke: That's the plan. You have my word on it.
Ripley: All right, I'm in.

And we all saw how that played out...Secondly:

Burke: Look, this is an emotional moment for all of us, okay? I know that. But,
let's not make snap judgments, please. This is clearly-clearly an
important species we're dealing with and I don't think that you or I, or
anybody, has the right to arbitrarily exterminate them.
Ripley: Wrong!
Vasquez: Yeah. Watch us.

[Someone With Mass]

Okay. Based of what I've seen, the Thanix cannon, while mounted on the Normandy, a frigate, took out a Collector cruiser with two shots, and it's just a miniaturized version of Sovereign's guns.

While the Collector ship's particle beam is slow to aim and it's apparently made for precision strikes, as it took them about five-six shots to blow up the SSV Normandy.

So clearly, the Reaper tech is better in that regard.

We already have stasis technology, and I don't think a swarm of bees would remove the Reapers themselves, just the husks.

Possible Reaper schematics? Maybe, but I don't think pinpointing any weakness in their armor helps when their shields are the problem. The Thanix cannon uses extreme heat. Heat can pass through their shields and melt the shield projectors.

As for indoctrination, I don't think there will ever be a cure for that, unless it can somehow be replaced with another mind-control agent, which doesn't really make any sense, since indoctrination is clearly degenerating the mental state of the victim while giving subtle messages until there's nothing left but a mindless husk.

Not to mention that I doubt that giving the potential technology to Cerberus will benefit mankind as a whole, judging by their past. And there's also the danger of them trying to seize power with aforementioned technology.

So, yeah. Blow the stupid thing up.

[grammagamer1]

What's so important about Reaper tech from a collector base that was successfully invaded and won? Maybe the Mass Relay instruction manual, keeper coding, weapon builds, and the blueprints for the very large android monster might come in handy. I let the TIM have it because, if an intact collector base will provide insight about, and/or mastery over these things through Cerberus research, what's to stop (my) Commander Sheppard from kicking in Cerberus' front door and liberating said findings to aid me in my quest to save the galaxy?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

One thing... The collectors were building a human reaper for the reapers, right? Is this where they build Reapers? So destroying the base would destroy where Reapers are built, and at least slow down the Reapers until they could build a new one. They will find another way.

Besides if you saved the base, and the Reapers get to a mass relay, how difficult would it be for them to retake the station? I don't think it would be difficult at all. So yes, blow up the damned thing.

[Emzamination]

I don't see why TIM would turn on me after I proved my loyalty and preserved the base for the glory of cerberus.

What was the point of being a renegade?

[Dave of Canada]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Besides if you saved the base, and the Reapers get to a mass relay, how difficult would it be for them to retake the station? I don't think it would be difficult at all. So yes, blow up the damned thing.

And what do the Reapers gain from holding the Collector Base that they don't already have? Aside from delaying the reconstruction of a human reaper which takes years if it's destroyed?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 juillet 2011 - 05:13 .

[Praetor Knight]

Emzamination wrote...

I don't see why TIM would turn on me after I proved my loyalty and preserved the base for the glory of cerberus.

What was the point of being a renegade?

What I've figured could be done, is that to TIM, you as Shepard are simply an asset to him. So to get the greatest return on investment, TIM will sacrifice what is necessary to allow you to succeed, regardless of what that is, or means.

[JamieCOTC]

One good reason to keep the base is that you get to pry Reaper tech out of TIM's cold dead hands after you kill him. That's what my Renegade intends to do anyway.

[Seboist]

Emzamination wrote...

I don't see why TIM would turn on me after I proved my loyalty and preserved the base for the glory of cerberus.

What was the point of being a renegade?

Sadly the point of Renegade is to make a purposely flawed playthrough where one gets less content and whose Shepard ends up shooting themselves in the foot and looking like a fool.

[Praetor Knight]

Seboist wrote...

Sadly the point of Renegade is to make a purposely flawed playthrough where one gets less content and whose Shepard ends up shooting themselves in the foot and looking like a fool.

I hope not.

[In Exile]

Seboist wrote...
Sadly the point of Renegade is to make a purposely flawed playthrough where one gets less content and whose Shepard ends up shooting themselves in the foot and looking like a fool.

Killing people obviously should = those people not being there. Why would you want some extra special super secret reward for that? The reward is them being dead.

Anyway, I think ME2 had reasonable consequences for ME1 renegade decisions. If you let the Council die, humanity leads the new Council. That the former Council races don't take that well is... well, pretty logical. No one takes provocation like that well. The galaxy ramped up for war after that, and that might benefit everyone when it comes time to fight the reapers. 

Otherwise, the only meaningful renegade decision in ME1 was the rachni. 

What else should renegades have seen positive outcomes for in ME1?

[Seboist]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Sadly the point of Renegade is to make a purposely flawed playthrough where one gets less content and whose Shepard ends up shooting themselves in the foot and looking like a fool.

I hope not.

Seeing as how the sacrifice the council decision was made into a total mockery in ME2 it does seem to be the case.

[In Exile]

Saphra Deden wrote...
You know I would respond to this but then I'd just be repeating myself for the 100th time. Instead I'm going to slam my fist on my desk and shout a curse word.

You do that. At least you're not incoherently defining morality again. 

Modifié par In Exile, 16 juillet 2011 - 05:36 .

[In Exile]

Seboist wrote...
Seeing as how the sacrifice the council decision was made into a total mockery in ME2 it does seem to be the case.

What do you mean? I felt that ME1 was way more ridiculous than ME2. In ME1, somehow the turians and asari would just give up now that the humans have a single intact fleet despite being heavily outnumbered population wise by the asari, salarians and turians an lacking their industrial capacity, economic ties and political allies (Anderson points this out at the start of ME1). 

[Praetor Knight]

Seboist wrote...

Seeing as how the sacrifice the council decision was made into a total mockery in ME2 it does seem to be the case.

I figure that the devs are aware and have something special in store in ME3. At least I feel they will want to wrap up Shepard's possible paths in a fullfilling manner for those that made that decision.

[Seboist]

In Exile wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Seeing as how the sacrifice the council decision was made into a total mockery in ME2 it does seem to be the case.

What do you mean? I felt that ME1 was way more ridiculous than ME2. In ME1, somehow the turians and asari would just give up now that the humans have a single intact fleet despite being heavily outnumbered population wise by the asari, salarians and turians an lacking their industrial capacity, economic ties and political allies (Anderson points this out at the start of ME1). 

Paragon path gets to save the council and destroy sovereign with minimal losses. There's no sign humans end up militarily weaker, nor does the Alliance brass or the people back home care that human lives were sacrificed to save alien bureaucrats. Aliens are fully cooperative with humanity and the player gets to see the council.

So uhhh what exactly was the point of the renegade decision besides just killing the council?

[Dave of Canada]

In Exile wrote...

What else should renegades have seen positive outcomes for in ME1?

Anything that's different from the Default so there's a difference between somebody who played ME1 and those who didn't.

Rachni: Since the project's files were released to the public as an incident with cloned Rachni (as they don't have to hide the fact that the Rachni Queen escaped), people are well aware of Shepard killing the Rachni Queen.

Possibly encountering a scientist on Illium in the same place that the Rachni Asari lady is, mentioning your decision to kill the Rachni Queen and allowing Shepard to comment on the decision. Similar to those who've spared the Rachni Queen capable of threatening her, being nice and asking how she is or the neutral option. 

If trying to imply some consequences for both sides:
Potentially have a Krogan who mentions that he fought in the Rachni Wars and he's glad he won't have to see another one, on the other hand he's furious if you spared the Rachni Queen after finding out from Wrex (if alive) or Wreav (somehow knowing it, maybe by a captured Salarian STG who knows about the Queen).

In the current implementation, nobody mentions your decision. Wiping out the last of the Rachni shouldn't be something that people ignore, especially if the information is made public considering the Rachni Wars are still fresh in the minds of many aliens.

Feros: No matter how you've handled the Colonists (Renegade or not), if you've charmed / intimidated the Exogeni guy there's going to be a colonist who shows up. The nameless colonist, somehow alive despite having killed all of Zhu's Hope, talks about the state of the colony.

Which is fine, though one must wonder: Why is there still colonists? Didn't I kill them all? Why should the intimidate option overwrite the decision to kill them?

If they had tried to recreate a non-Shiala cameo that would've made sense without any colonists, they could've kept the people who are unkillable at that point in the game.

Paragons recieving the Shiala cameo get to meet somebody they've previously met and reconnect and find out about the colony, Renegades could've recieved Liz / Juliana Baynham (providing the familiar face) and could've talked about the colony's safety or destruction.

As it stands now, the Shiala cameo has 4-6 variations (including covering the everybody-dead cameo) while the colonist one only has two (where if you kill everybody and don't intimidate/charm Jeong, nobody shows up).

Council: Getting tired of typing and correcting the errors the spellchecker the phone has, so it'll be brief.

I mostly approve of the consequences of the Council decisions, though I would've further explored the Renegade aspect of things. Having the all-human or new alien Council show up would've been nice, maybe exploring further the plot about them being stuck in a cold war arms race.

Maybe demonstrate that the all-human Council is more trusting of Shepard's warnings of the Reapers, too. Having them not believe the Reapers and saying that they don't trust Shepard because he'll place human interests above everybody else is... confusing.

Small side quest cameos: Killing people isn't forgotten by family members, friends / rivals of the deceased and such. Cameos could exist if you killed people, similar to how killing Juhani in KOTOR resulted in her lover appearing on Korriban much later.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 juillet 2011 - 05:57 .

[In Exile]

Seboist wrote...
Paragon path gets to save the council and destroy sovereign with minimal losses. 

That's ME1's failure.

There's no sign humans end up militarily weaker

ME2 addresses that - Shepard even lists the losses. It wasn't the ships that beat Sovereign, remember - it was Shepard killing him in direct control.

, nor does the Alliance brass or the people back home care that human lives were sacrificed to save alien bureaucrats. Aliens are fully cooperative with humanity and the player gets to see the council.

Technically, the Alliance is part of the Citadel - the owey that military service as part of their membership. It would be like there being major flak about the US keeping up NATO responsibilities. Sure, you might have some outcry (and the interview, again, mentions some of that) but it's par for the course.

As for the aliens cooperating, that makes sense. Humanity cooperated. Humanity doesn't cooperate when the Citadel dies, so the aliens don't either. 

So uhhh what exactly was the point of the renegade decision besides just killing the council?

The renegade decision was "Let the Council die" and the point was that the new Council would be led by humanity, so that humanity would have the say in what happens in the galaxy. It was all politics, and in ME2 humanity is one of the new (if not the) dominat political forces.