1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

No, I mean, why do you think every society in the galaxy would want to incorporate the same technology that tried to kill them? 

Because the technology didn't try to kill them, the Reapers did.

Your logic says that people who were attacked by soldiers with guns wouldn't want to use guns themselves because guns killed them. That is obviously flawed because guns are simply tools.

Reaper technology will mean a lot of changes to the galaxy, the basics including stronger ships and faster FTL travel. Then there are the medical implications of the their advanced nanotechnology. The quarians would be interested in that I'm sure.

Adanu wrote...

 Giving the base to Cerberus would only further Reaper goals, any technology gained from Reapers can probably with no greater effort be shut down by Reapers.

I really dislike vague, nonsensical statements like these. They allow that improved coffee making technology gained form the reapers would be magically shut down by them just because its "reaper technology".

This is a terrible argument.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 16 juillet 2011 - 06:44 .

[marshalleck]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

No, I mean, why do you think every society in the galaxy would want to incorporate the same technology that tried to kill them? 

Because the technology didn't try to kill them, the Reapers did.

Your logic says that people who were attacked by soldiers with guns wouldn't want to use guns themselves because guns killed them. That is obviously flawed because guns are simply tools.

Reaper technology will mean a lot of changes to the galaxy, the basics including stronger ships and faster FTL travel. Then there are the medical implications of the their advanced nanotechnology. The quarians would be interested in that I'm sure.

All the more reason to secure those advantages for humanity.

Also, all the more reason for Paragon-Luddites to blow up the base.

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 juillet 2011 - 06:42 .

[ThePwener]

People talk with ignorance when defending the destruction of the Collector Base. They say Reaper tech is bad and uncontrollable, yet we have the Thanix Cannon, and that was only a destroyed Reaper. Imagine the treasure box that the Base is. Then they say it's Cerberus, yet we know next to nothing about they're operations and they're so called "incompetence" only derives from 1 failed experiment (ME1 creatures) and an AI gone rogue (Project Overlord) that was consecutevely fixed by them as well (Shepard, when he was still an AFFILIATE of Cerberus). Those are only 1 and a half projects out of 13 known cells doing stuff.

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

No, I mean, why do you think every society in the galaxy would want to incorporate the same technology that tried to kill them? 

Because the technology didn't try to kill them, the Reapers did.

Your logic says that people who were attacked by soldiers with guns wouldn't want to use guns themselves because guns killed them. That is obviously flawed because guns are simply tools.

Reaper technology will mean a lot of changes to the galaxy, the basics including stronger ships and faster FTL travel. Then there are the medical implications of the their advanced nanotechnology. The quarians would be interested in that I'm sure.

All the more reason to secure those advantages for humanity.

Also, all the more reason for Paragon-Luddites to blow up the base.

Reaper tech is a satanic affront to the almighty! Blow it!

[Inverness Moon]

At the end of Evolution TIM says this:

"There is no magic -- only technology. Tools that we can master. Tools we must master. Not just to survive -- but for the betterment of mankind."

I entirely agree with that. There is a lot of reaper-technophobia around here, people who would rather run, hide, and pretend it doesn't exist, not caring if the reapers are going to use that technology to destroy the galaxy. It's nice to see that there are some people that understand the necessity of knowing your enemy and its tools if you intend to fight them.

[Seboist]

Inverness Moon wrote...

At the end of Evolution TIM says this:

"There is no magic -- only technology. Tools that we can master. Tools we must master. Not just to survive -- but for the betterment of mankind."

I entirely agree with that. There is a lot of reaper-technophobia around here, people who would rather run, hide, and pretend it doesn't exist, not caring if the reapers are going to use that technology to destroy the galaxy. It's nice to see that there are some people that understand the necessity of knowing your enemy and its tools if you intend to fight them.

The Reaper technophobes need to put their money where their mouth is and not use mass relays, mass effect cores in their ships or mass accelerator weapons. Oh and they should demand that everyone vacate the citadel.

[marshalleck]

Seboist wrote...
Oh and they should demand that everyone vacate the citadel.

That would actually be a tactically wise decision. Centralized galactic leadership on a known trojan horse is the pinnacle of stupidity.

[CaptREDKangaroo]

Ppl don't see aside from the Reaper tech issues - the ILM/TIM is not exactly a saint... how he'd misuse it he's the WORST person to be in control of such power... HE would be in control of it. Maybe you support the ILM as Renegade is very pro-human/TIM siding - in which case it's not a big issue but for me as a Paragon, it was and I'm not handing control of such a thing to him, because after the reapers, yes IF there's an afterwards... yeah. It's a matter of trust. I don't see this as a difficult choice as why Paragon or Renegade... granted, the ILM is Martin Sheen it's easy to be swayed by him and he had an almost convincing argument. But he's driven by fear and maybe not hate, but power =D

Legion's Loyalty mission was far more grey there imo.

Modifié par CaptREDKangaroo, 16 juillet 2011 - 07:05 .

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Because the technology didn't try to kill them, the Reapers did.

Your logic says that people who were attacked by soldiers with guns wouldn't want to use guns themselves because guns killed them. That is obviously flawed because guns are simply tools.

Reaper technology will mean a lot of changes to the galaxy, the basics including stronger ships and faster FTL travel. Then there are the medical implications of the their advanced nanotechnology. The quarians would be interested in that I'm sure.

Uh-huh. So we're just going to pretend like the little incident with the Reaper IFF never happened?

[ThePwener]

Metagaming, TIM will never have the chance to use the Base unless Shepard lets him (derp Shepard!). at some point in ME3, Shepard confronts TIM and gets the chance to destroy Cerberus or take it over.

[ThePwener]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Uh-huh. So we're just going to pretend like the little incident with the Reaper IFF never happened?

Collector Base =/= Derelict reaper = 404

The Collector Base isn't a Reaper. There is no known indoctrination devices aboard it.

[Phaedon]

Inverness Moon wrote...

At the end of Evolution TIM says this:

"There is no magic -- only technology. Tools that we can master. Tools we must master. Not just to survive -- but for the betterment of mankind."

I entirely agree with that. There is a lot of reaper-technophobia around here, people who would rather run, hide, and pretend it doesn't exist, not caring if the reapers are going to use that technology to destroy the galaxy. It's nice to see that there are some people that understand the necessity of knowing your enemy and its tools if you intend to fight them.

That has to do with his personality being that of a pessimistic realist. Desolas on the other hand, wanted to believe. TIM feared to believe.

"The time of truth is over- behold the future!"

Yeah, there are many great lines in Evolution.

I don't think that anyone fears the base. Deontologically, there's nothing bad with recovering it's tech. Building a Reaper though? That's monstrous.

I am sure that all players would give the base to someone trustworthy.


And most people think that TIM isn't. TIM basically promises to use the base to secure human dominance (through violence, if you check the context) towards aliens, and doesn't dismiss entertaining the idea of building a Reaper.

[Deametrius]

marshalleck wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Oh and they should demand that everyone vacate the citadel.

That would actually be a tactically wise decision. Centralized galactic leadership on a known trojan horse is the pinnacle of stupidity.

What about the part where they stay in said known trojan horse and deny the builders of said known trojan horse exist, one of which almost activated said known trojan horse? Not exactly the brightest bunch those councilors eh?

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...

At the end of Evolution TIM says this:

"There is no magic -- only technology. Tools that we can master. Tools we must master. Not just to survive -- but for the betterment of mankind."

I entirely agree with that. There is a lot of reaper-technophobia around here, people who would rather run, hide, and pretend it doesn't exist, not caring if the reapers are going to use that technology to destroy the galaxy. It's nice to see that there are some people that understand the necessity of knowing your enemy and its tools if you intend to fight them.

Too bad that Cerberus fails at it so hard, it's not even funny.

And guess what. The rest of the galaxy won't sit idly by while Cerberus tries to incorporate technology they can't even comprehend to begin with and just decides to throw as many people as they can at it, not knowing if it will succeed or not.

It'll just be a never-ending arms race that will cause nothing else but destruction.

By the way, the sooner TIM and Cerberus disappears from the face of Mass Effect, the better, because they're just waste of space in a universe that can focus on anything, anything else than Cerberus. Like...a story that doesn't blow ass because of them.

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Uh-huh. So we're just going to pretend like the little incident with the Reaper IFF never happened?

No, that is a perfect example of why creating EDI using reaper technology was a good idea, and why you'd better learn how to defend against their technology and most likely extensive hacking abilities sooner rather than later.

I'm certain EDI improved her own defensive abilities through her experiences with the IFF and collector ship. It's best that those incidents happened before, with the collectors, and not after the reapers arrived. Then, it might have happened in a critical moment in the war where it could have made a significant difference in the outcome. The entire point of this is that it is better to develop experience before the war rather than during it.

Your issue is that you seem to be blaming the technology itself rather than the Reapers. Reaper technology is dangerous because they make it dangerous. If you want to fight them you'd better start studying the technology so it will be less dangerous to you when they use it on you.

[Someone With Mass]

ThePwener wrote...

Collector Base =/= Derelict reaper = 404

The Collector Base isn't a Reaper. There is no known indoctrination devices aboard it.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

[Deametrius]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Collector Base =/= Derelict reaper = 404

The Collector Base isn't a Reaper. There is no known indoctrination devices aboard it.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

It doesn't mean it isn't the evidence of absence either.

EDIT: after having written this, I'm slightly confused even though I know what I mean.

Modifié par Deametrius, 16 juillet 2011 - 07:20 .

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Oh and they should demand that everyone vacate the citadel.

That would actually be a tactically wise decision. Centralized galactic leadership on a known trojan horse is the pinnacle of stupidity.

True but once the Reapers are dealt with it'll be humanity's gateway to the beyond. Perhaps to the "Dark Citadel" Dean the Young speculates is on the other end?

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

And most people think that TIM isn't. TIM basically promises to use the base to secure human dominance (through violence, if you check the context) towards aliens, and doesn't dismiss entertaining the idea of building a Reaper.

I don't see how TIM is any different from the Council trio in regards to dominance over other species. 

[Iakus]

ThePwener wrote...

People talk with ignorance when defending the destruction of the Collector Base. They say Reaper tech is bad and uncontrollable, yet we have the Thanix Cannon, and that was only a destroyed Reaper. Imagine the treasure box that the Base is. Then they say it's Cerberus, yet we know next to nothing about they're operations and they're so called "incompetence" only derives from 1 failed experiment (ME1 creatures) and an AI gone rogue (Project Overlord) that was consecutevely fixed by them as well (Shepard, when he was still an AFFILIATE of Cerberus). Those are only 1 and a half projects out of 13 known cells doing stuff.

Derelict Reaper
Teltin facility
Akuze
Depot Sigma 23

later on: Paul Grayson

All show a pattern where Cerberus, if not outright evil, is certainly careless with their security protocols.   And Reaper tech is shown to be very very dangerous to handle.  Sure maybe this time TIM will actually be a little careful and not try to do the Reapers' job for them.  And maybe the horse will sing as well

I can't help but wonder if the reason why we don't know what the other cells are doing or what successes they've had is because by now they're all dead 

As i've said the choice isn't simply about keeping/destroying the base, it's a question of keeping the base and handing it over to someone who does not have a proven track record for success, and in fact is known to have several rather spectacular failures.  Having the option to had it over to someone besides TIM would make the choice much harder.

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

And most people think that TIM isn't. TIM basically promises to use the base to secure human dominance (through violence, if you check the context) towards aliens, and doesn't dismiss entertaining the idea of building a Reaper.

I don't see how TIM is any different from the Council trio in regards to dominance over other species. 

They are less violent. Nobody here is claiming that the Council is perfect, but at least they wouldn't make Reapers out of the volus.

[Pulletlamer]

ThePwener wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Uh-huh. So we're just going to pretend like the little incident with the Reaper IFF never happened?

Collector Base =/= Derelict reaper = 404

The Collector Base isn't a Reaper. There is no known indoctrination devices aboard it.

Then why care to keep it? If there's no Reaper tech, it's usefulness drops down considerably, and that reasoning makes invalid any argument that defend's TIM posture of studying reaper tech.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 16 juillet 2011 - 07:21 .

[marshalleck]

Seboist wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Oh and they should demand that everyone vacate the citadel.

That would actually be a tactically wise decision. Centralized galactic leadership on a known trojan horse is the pinnacle of stupidity.

True but once the Reapers are dealt with it'll be humanity's gateway to the beyond. Perhaps to the "Dark Citadel" Dean the Young speculates is on the other end?

Maybe, though the Reapers don't use the Citadel in the same way lesser organics do, so I'm not sure why anyone would expect the other half of the relay component in dark space to be anything more than a relay capable of transmitting absolutely enormous mass.

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

And most people think that TIM isn't. TIM basically promises to use the base to secure human dominance (through violence, if you check the context) towards aliens, and doesn't dismiss entertaining the idea of building a Reaper.

I don't see how TIM is any different from the Council trio in regards to dominance over other species. 

They are less violent. Nobody here is claiming that the Council is perfect, but at least they wouldn't make Reapers out of the volus.

No, they just throw other species into a blender and then later sterilize them. 

[ThePwener]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Collector Base =/= Derelict reaper = 404

The Collector Base isn't a Reaper. There is no known indoctrination devices aboard it.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Fine, don't keep it. Unlike yor ending, my Humanity won't be pushed down under the Turians. The Turians didn't lose no time to reverse engineer Sovereign into weaponry they didn't want to share with anyone else for obvious reasons.

They wouldn't think twice of giving the base to a Turian version of TIM (Saren).