1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Bnol]

The only argument that makes sense in terms of danger is the fallout of Cerberus having advanced tech/indoctrination. But that fallout would only materialize after the reapers have been defeated, which isn't a guarantee. Without the base, we lose a potential source of knowledge into how to fight the reapers, losing that source could lose the war with the reapers (unlikely since it was the paragon choice, but that is metagaming) which means the afterward fallout of dealing with Cerberus wouldn't matter since the galaxy is screwed anyways.

The TIM is already indoctrinated argument doesn't make sense. If TIM was already working for the reapers he wouldn't need Shepard to wipe out the collectors and take the base as the reapers could allow him access to reaper tech or the base. The reapers lose more by losing the collectors and the effort of building the new reaper, in addition to the potential that Shepard blows the whole thing up. While Saren pursued his own agenda, the only thing he did against the reapers was study indoctrination. Likely this was allowed by Sovereign either because it was already too late when Saren started, or just out of confidence that an organics could never figure it out. Either way, the action never directly hurt the reaper plans.

The danger of leading to Cerberus indoctrination makes sense in terms of expendable Cerberus personnel becoming indoctrinated, but TIM would never get near that base as he is always looking to save his own life and sacrifice others. The cellular nature of Cerberus would help to protect from the entire organization becoming indoctrinated.

I find it prudent to deal with the imminent problem of galactic genocide by the hands of the reapers first, and use all available resources, and then deal with the aftermath, because it won't matter if the reapers win what Cerberus has access to.

[ThePwener]

Pulletlamer wrote...

Then why care to keep it? If there's no Reaper tech, it's usefulness drops down considerably, and that reasoning makes invalid any argument that defend's TIM posture of studying reaper tech.

*facepalm*

That doesn't mean that the tech there isn't eons more advanced then ours. It was still made by Reapers.

Modifié par ThePwener, 16 juillet 2011 - 07:25 .

[Iakus]

Deametrius wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Collector Base =/= Derelict reaper = 404

The Collector Base isn't a Reaper. There is no known indoctrination devices aboard it.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

It doesn't mean it isn't the evidence of absence either.

EDIT: after having written this, I'm slightly confused even though I know what I mean.

Dragon's Teeth are known to cause indoctrination.  We've seen it in several side missions in both ME1 and ME2. Who knows what other Reaper technology can do it as well (like, say, Object Rho)  

We've also seen that the Collectors do in fact have Dragon's Teeth.

[Inverness Moon]

Phaedon wrote...

That has to do with his personality being that of a pessimistic realist. Desolas on the other hand, wanted to believe. TIM feared to believe.

"The time of truth is over- behold the future!"

Yeah, there are many great lines in Evolution.

I don't think that anyone fears the base. Deontologically, there's nothing bad with recovering it's tech. Building a Reaper though? That's monstrous.

I am sure that all players would give the base to someone trustworthy.


And most people think that TIM isn't. TIM basically promises to use the base to secure human dominance (through violence, if you check the context) towards aliens, and doesn't dismiss entertaining the idea of building a Reaper.

You don't think that anyone fears the base? I'm surprised you can say that (with what I assume is) a straight face. Because there are plenty of people around this forum that contradict that.

Also, utilizing the collector base doesn't necessarily mean building a reaper. It also wouldn't even be a good use of the base. Why build a single reaper using millions humans when you could distribute the technology and use it to upgrade the already existing Alliance fleets? One reaper isn't going to make a real difference against a fleet of hundreds. So I don't believe anyone who claims that TIM thinks building a reaper is a good idea.

Though, if a reaper could be built that was merely a ship, and not sentient, and it didn't require all the organic sacrifices, I would certainly love to have one of those.

I'm also not really worried about TIM's intentions of human dominance. I believe he first intends to deal with the reapers now and will go to any lengths to do it. What happens afterwards is a bridge I'll cross when I get to it.

Someone With Mass wrote...

Too bad that Cerberus fails at it so hard, it's not even funny.

And guess what. The rest of the galaxy won't sit idly by while Cerberus tries to incorporate technology they can't even comprehend to begin with and just decides to throw as many people as they can at it, not knowing if it will succeed or not.

Can't even comprehend? Do you also think reaper technology is magic?

Even if Cerberus doesn't always succeed, the fact that they even try pleases me. It's a lot better than what can be said about the rest of the galaxy that doesn't even believe the reapers exist.

If you don't like Cerberus's efforts to research reaper technology, perhaps you should do it yourself.

It'll just be a never-ending arms race that will cause nothing else but destruction.

If it takes an arms race to get the galaxy prepared to fight the reapers then I don't have a problem with it.

[CroGamer002]

marshalleck wrote...

No, they just throw other species into a blender and then later sterilize them. 

Well, Krogans were kinda attacking them without provocation and it was choice between Council races survival and genophage on Krogans.

At least they didn't killed people in some sick experiments.

[ultimo andrade]

"Cuse they were building a human reaper"... That is all

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Deametrius wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Collector Base =/= Derelict reaper = 404

The Collector Base isn't a Reaper. There is no known indoctrination devices aboard it.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

It doesn't mean it isn't the evidence of absence either.

EDIT: after having written this, I'm slightly confused even though I know what I mean.

Dragon's Teeth are known to cause indoctrination.  We've seen it in several side missions in both ME1 and ME2. Who knows what other Reaper technology can do it as well (like, say, Object Rho)  

We've also seen that the Collectors do in fact have Dragon's Teeth.

Uhh, when/where was this shown? I thought Dragon's Teeth literally turned you into a walking space zombie.

[Inverness Moon]

Mesina2 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

No, they just throw other species into a blender and then later sterilize them. 

Well, Krogans were kinda attacking them without provocation and it was choice between Council races survival and genophage on Krogans.

At least they didn't killed people in some sick experiments.

It's the Council's fault that the krogan were even in that situation in the first place. They uplifted to the krogan to fight their battles for them, then sterilized them once their usefulness had passed and the krogan were no longer under their control.

It does seem rather like what the reapers would do.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 16 juillet 2011 - 07:30 .

[ThePwener]

iakus wrote...

Deametrius wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Collector Base =/= Derelict reaper = 404

The Collector Base isn't a Reaper. There is no known indoctrination devices aboard it.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

It doesn't mean it isn't the evidence of absence either.

EDIT: after having written this, I'm slightly confused even though I know what I mean.

Dragon's Teeth are known to cause indoctrination.  We've seen it in several side missions in both ME1 and ME2. Who knows what other Reaper technology can do it as well (like, say, Object Rho)  

We've also seen that the Collectors do in fact have Dragon's Teeth.

we're not sure of that. Just because we found Dragons teeth along with tech-zombies, doesn't mean they did it themselves. The Dragons Teeth that the Collectors have are also different. They may not have indoctrination as it may interfere with the Reaperfication.

[Pulletlamer]

ThePwener wrote...

*facepalm*

That doesn't mean that the tech there isn't eons more advanced then ours. It was still made by Reapers.

You just contradicted yourself with the post you did before.

And what makes you think that tech in the collector base can't "indoctrinate"?

After all, it's still made by the reapers.

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

Seboist wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Oh and they should demand that everyone vacate the citadel.

That would actually be a tactically wise decision. Centralized galactic leadership on a known trojan horse is the pinnacle of stupidity.

True but once the Reapers are dealt with it'll be humanity's gateway to the beyond. Perhaps to the "Dark Citadel" Dean the Young speculates is on the other end?

Maybe, though the Reapers don't use the Citadel in the same way lesser organics do, so I'm not sure why anyone would expect the other half of the relay component in dark space to be anything more than a relay capable of transmitting absolutely enormous mass.

We won't know for sure unless we go there and find out. :happy:

[Iakus]

ThePwener wrote...

Fine, don't keep it. Unlike yor ending, my Humanity won't be pushed down under the Turians. The Turians didn't lose no time to reverse engineer Sovereign into weaponry they didn't want to share with anyone else for obvious reasons.

They wouldn't think twice of giving the base to a Turian version of TIM (Saren).

Small difference here, the turians got the Thannix from chunks of a dead SOvereign blown to itty bitty chunks.  The risks there were likely considerably mitigated.  Not to mention the turians are probably not likely known for running reckless experiments with minimal failsafes;)

The base, however, is still active.  All it's components are still functional.  Heck, Harbinger may even be able to Assume Direct Control of some of its machinery and play Home Alone with Cerberus techs.

[wright1978]

One of the main reasons i always destroy the base is because TIM always leaves me with the impression that keeping the base has been his goal all along and that he has been lying to mesince day one. How can he ever be trusted? Given the main technology of the base is the machine that takes sentient life and pulps it. Better to destroy something that dangerous to life in the galaxy than hand it over a duplicitous madman.

[Dave of Canada]

Phaedon wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
I know you're a pathetic twerp who's always siding with the minority no matter what. You don't have to tell me that.

BSN: The Hipster Invasion


Then again, baseless whining is mainstream around these parts.

You guys can't be serious. This is probably the most ridiculous and hilarious posts I've read all thread. Good jobs, sir.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 juillet 2011 - 07:32 .

[ThePwener]

Il Divo wrote...

Uhh, when/where was this shown? I thought Dragon's Teeth literally turned you into a walking space zombie.

You have to climb up the ride and stick yourself in it first.

[marshalleck]

Seboist wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Seboist wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Oh and they should demand that everyone vacate the citadel.

That would actually be a tactically wise decision. Centralized galactic leadership on a known trojan horse is the pinnacle of stupidity.

True but once the Reapers are dealt with it'll be humanity's gateway to the beyond. Perhaps to the "Dark Citadel" Dean the Young speculates is on the other end?

Maybe, though the Reapers don't use the Citadel in the same way lesser organics do, so I'm not sure why anyone would expect the other half of the relay component in dark space to be anything more than a relay capable of transmitting absolutely enormous mass.

We won't know for sure unless we go there and find out. :happy:

Well I wasn't saying we shouldn't go take a look. I just don't think calling it "dark Citadel" is appropriate. Dark relay is probably better, but ultimately who knows until we go there. 

Might be best to send some automated probes through, first. If such a thing is possible.

[Inverness Moon]

Pulletlamer wrote...

You just contradicted yourself with the post you did before.

And what makes you think that tech in the collector base can't "indoctrinate"?

After all, it's still made by the reapers.

The chance what some things found in the base could indoctrinate isn't a good reason to avoid it entirely.

In fact, having an opportunity to research indoctrination before the reapers arrive and use it against everyone is a good thing.

[Phaedon]

Inverness Moon wrote...
You don't think that anyone fears the base? I'm surprised you can say that (with what I assume is) a straight face.

I don't tend to talk while I type.

Because there are plenty of people around this forum that contradict that.

Define "fear" the base. Indoctrination? If anything that's even more reason to give it to someone with a better record than Cerberus. They love getting indoctrinated.

Also, utilizing the collector base doesn't necessarily mean building a reaper. It also wouldn't even be a good use of the base. Why build a single reaper using millions humans when you could distribute the technology and use it to upgrade the already existing Alliance fleets? One reaper isn't going to make a real difference against a fleet of hundreds. So I don't believe anyone who claims that TIM thinks building a reaper is a good idea.

Who talked about humans? Or organics in general? Machines can work without organic genetic material, i am sure.

TIM never explicitly says that building a Reaper is a good idea, but if I remember correctly, when confornted with that possibility before you decide to blow up the base, he seems to evade it.

The rest of what you said? Exactly.
The base can be harmful towards all aliens, but not to the Reapers.

The base can also be harmful to both the Reapers and all aliens.

TIM does admit wanting to use it beyond the Reapers, whether that happens before or after the invasion doesn't really matter anyway. I somehow doubt an illegal group would just give up the superweapon they made out of the base.

Though, if a reaper could be built that was merely a ship, and not sentient, and it didn't require all the organic sacrifices, I would certainly love to have one of those.

Genetic material doesn't create sentience, machinery does. To avoid that, you would have to reverse engineer very complicated technolodgy. The protheans only managed to reverse engineer the mass relays, and that in a very small scale, what do you think will happen with humans? Will they reverse engineer the Reapers within months?

I'm also not really worried about TIM's intentions of human dominance. I believe he first intends to deal with the reapers now and will go to any lengths to do it. What happens afterwards is a bridge I'll cross when I get to it.

And yet you are assuming that Cerberus will not wait to use the superweapon to defend nobody but humans.

Can't even comprehend? Do you also think reaper technology is magic?

You may want to check Evolution for another quote.

Advanced magic is initially indistinguishable from magic.

I don't want to know how many centuries it will take to get past the initial stage.

[ThePwener]

iakus wrote...

 Not to mention the turians are probably not likely known for running reckless experiments with minimal failsafes;)

You obviously did not read EVOLUTION and saw the Reaperfied Turian Zombie Monks experiment conducted with a recovered Reaper artifact similar to Object Rho and the minimal failsafes it had. They're no better then us.

[marshalleck]

Advanced magic is unquestionably indistinguishable from magic. No argument there.

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 juillet 2011 - 07:37 .

[Inverness Moon]

iakus wrote...

Small difference here, the turians got the Thannix from chunks of a dead SOvereign blown to itty bitty chunks.  The risks there were likely considerably mitigated.  Not to mention the turians are probably not likely known for running reckless experiments with minimal failsafes;)

Except that argument falls apart because you don't know how indoctrination works. What makes you think a piece of Sovereign the size of a basketball can't indoctrinate? You can't say the risks were mitigated when you don't even know what causes them.

The base, however, is still active.  All it's components are still functional.  Heck, Harbinger may even be able to Assume Direct Control of some of its machinery and play Home Alone with Cerberus techs.

If the radiation pulse is enough to kill every living thing inside of it, do you really think everything would survive without damage?

Also, all evidence we've seen of Harbinger controlling things has been through semi-organic bodies. The method to this was explained in Retribution. We see Sovereign do the same thing with Saren.

[lietk12]

I know Shepard speculates that the Collectors were using Reaper tech to keep their base out of the black hole. There's a possibility that they have other Reaper tech which could be used for indoctrination.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Uhh, when/where was this shown? I thought Dragon's Teeth literally turned you into a walking space zombie.

N7:_Abandoned_Mine The logs left by the workers sound an awful like like a form of indoctrination.  

[Mister Mida]

iakus wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Uhh, when/where was this shown? I thought Dragon's Teeth literally turned you into a walking space zombie.

N7:_Abandoned_Mine The logs left by the workers sound an awful like like a form of indoctrination.  

Because there is a big indoctrination device deep within the mine. The Dragon's Teeth however, are nowhere to be found.

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...

No, they just throw other species into a blender and then later sterilize them. 

I would agree with you, should there have been an alternative for the krogan problem.

Don't mention genocide. 

The Council aren't the nicest bunch of people either, but they are multi-racial (not tri-racial as the games lead you to believe, it's just that not everyone gets a seat on the council) organization, and I am sure that they get elected to their positions.

Better them than destroy the base or give it to a prohuman organization that is considered illegal.