1939 réponses à ce sujet

[ThePwener]

lietk12 wrote...

I know Shepard speculates that the Collectors were using Reaper tech to keep their base out of the black hole. There's a possibility that they have other Reaper tech which could be used for indoctrination.

The technology that the Reapers use was developed by another race trillions of years ago when all of this crap started. Reapers were created by organics because the idea of robots always existing is beyond impossible. That said, the tech they use is just very advanced, but not completaly impractical as we've seen with EDI and the Thanix Cannons.

Just because it's advanced, doesn't mean we should fear it. Did you know people used to say medicine was witchcraft and feared it?

[Arppis]

Let's see in Mass Effect 3!

Basicly preventing Cerberus only getting the tech. Who knows what they will do with them! Plus, because it's reaper-tech. How about indocrination? Plus, I don't want someone like Illusive man, he would just mess it up and end up with another "failed experiment".

But yeeees, Cerberus seems to go Reaper-friendly in ME3 as it is. They propably think like Saren and say: "Reapers will spare us if we help them!".

Modifié par Arppis, 16 juillet 2011 - 07:46 .

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

No, they just throw other species into a blender and then later sterilize them. 

I would agree with you, should there have been an alternative for the krogan problem.

Don't mention genocide. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]

The Council aren't the nicest bunch of people either, but they are multi-racial (not tri-racial as the games lead you to believe, it's just that not everyone gets a seat on the council) organization, and I am sure that they get elected to their positions.

Better them than destroy the base or give it to a prohuman organization that is considered illegal.

 You can see repeatedly throughout the series how much say a species has in decisions without a seat on the Council; very little to none. The Council is very much an oligarchy, and while the representatives sitting on the seats may be democratically elected, the seats themselves are not. What I do find odd about it is we never really see them disagreeing amongst themselves, though they surely must.

At any rate, giving them the base would lead to no less dominance and lording advantages over others than giving it to TIM, just in that case it would be to the disadvantage of all of humanity. The only question re: TIM's motivations is how and to what degree he is willing to share with the Alliance. If my Shepard could hand over access to the Alliance instead of TIM, he would. But since I can't, TIM is the next best option for securing human presence in the galaxy now and into the future.

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 juillet 2011 - 07:54 .

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Can't even comprehend? Do you also think reaper technology is magic?

Even if Cerberus doesn't always succeed, the fact that they even try pleases me. It's a lot better than what can be said about the rest of the galaxy that doesn't even believe the reapers exist.

If you don't like Cerberus's efforts to research reaper technology, perhaps you should do it yourself.

It'll just be a never-ending arms race that will cause nothing else but destruction.

If it takes an arms race to get the galaxy prepared to fight the reapers then I don't have a problem with it.

The rest of the galaxy seems to actually do something with the technology instead of just dicking around with it and hope for the best. Like Cerberus is constantly doing.

I think Legion said something about taking a certain path blinds you to the alternatives.

I think that's exactly what Cerberus is doing. And trying to defeat the enemy by being dependent on their technology and act exactly like they predicted we would? Because of one man who was clearly influenced by their technology in a unpredictable and perhaps compromising way? Not a good move.

We can build our own technology and tactics without being dependent on the Reapers.

The Protheans did it.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 16 juillet 2011 - 07:56 .

[Inverness Moon]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

Define "fear" the base. Indoctrination? If anything that's even more reason to give it to someone with a better record than Cerberus. They love getting indoctrinated.
[/quote]
You mean give it to people who don't believe that the reapers exist, who will probably deny reality and say the collectors acted alone even with the base?
[quote]
Who talked about humans? Or organics in general? Machines can work without organic genetic material, i am sure.
[/quote]
That doesn't change the fact that building a single reaper isn't going to make a difference against hundreds. There is also the fact that it would obvious be Cerberus alone building it. One thing they don't have is a lot of manpower.

On the other hand the Alliance already has several fleets and the manpower to upgrade them much more rapidly than Cerberus cold even build a single reaper on its own.
[quote]
TIM never explicitly says that building a Reaper is a good idea, but if I remember correctly, when confornted with that possibility before you decide to blow up the base, he seems to evade it.
[/quote]
Shepard is the one that threw that nonsensical accusation out there. I wouldn't be particularly inclined to address it either. TIM not responding really isn't proof of anything. We know he will do anything he believes necessary, except we also know that building a reaper is a waste of time.
[quote]
The rest of what you said? Exactly.
The base can be harmful towards all aliens, but not to the Reapers.

The base can also be harmful to both the Reapers and all aliens.

TIM does admit wanting to use it beyond the Reapers, whether that happens before or after the invasion doesn't really matter anyway. I somehow doubt an illegal group would just give up the superweapon they made out of the base.
[/quote]
I don't expect them to want to give it up, nor do I care. As long as they use what they gain to help fight the reapers I'm satisfied. I'll worry about what happens afterwards once I'm done dealing with the infinitely greater threat.

[quote]
[quote]Though, if a reaper could be built that was merely a ship, and not sentient, and it didn't require all the organic sacrifices, I would certainly love to have one of those.[/quote]
Genetic material doesn't create sentience, machinery does. To avoid that, you would have to reverse engineer very complicated technolodgy. The protheans only managed to reverse engineer the mass relays, and that in a very small scale, what do you think will happen with humans? Will they reverse engineer the Reapers within months?
[/quote]I never suggested genetic material created sentience. I considered the sentience and organic sacrifices two entirely different things.

Either way, my point is that I don't believe the organic components contribute in any way to the strength or look of the ship itself. That is simply part of the reapers' being and how they make more of themselves, it's not some secret to their power.
[quote]
And yet you are assuming that Cerberus will not wait to use the superweapon to defend nobody but humans.
[/quote]
Because I think TIM is intelligent and not a cliche comic book villain. It's not like Shepard is the only one that can see the value of allies in a war.
[quote]
Can't even comprehend? Do you also think reaper technology is magic?
[/quote]
You may want to check Evolution for another quote.

Advanced magic is initially indistinguishable from magic.

I don't want to know how many centuries it will take to get past the initial stage.
[/quote]
Except it isn't magic, no matter what it looks like. It can be understood given time and effort. We already know how Harbi- ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...

You can see repeatedly throughout the series how much say a species has in decisions without a seat on the Council; very little to none. The Council is very much an oligarchy. What I do find odd about it is we never really see them disagreeing amongst themselves, though they surely must.

At any rate, giving them the base would lead to no less dominance than giving it to TIM. The only question really is just how much TIM would be willing to share with the Alliance and the rest of humanity. If my Shepard could hand over access to the Alliance instead of TIM, he probably would. But since I can't, TIM is the next best option for securing human presence in the galaxy now and into the future.

Elected oligarchy? Anyway, that's like saying that the UN is an oligarchy. I am sure that all races have sovereignty and can make their own decisions.

The Council doesn't really hand out orders to other races, they just to be the UN+the Galaxy Police.

Though I am all for redesigning the Council, as I said, they are not very good, but they aren't that dangerous either.

[Iakus]

[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Except that argument falls apart because you don't know how indoctrination works. What makes you think a piece of Sovereign the size of a basketball can't indoctrinate? You can't say the risks were mitigated when you don't even know what causes them.[/quote]

You're right.  I don't.  However, in the two years since Sovereign's death I do not believe there have been any reports of turian military officers or scientists acting funny.

The Council, however, is another matter.  What did happen to that chunk of Sovereign that landed in their audience chamber...?


[/quote]If the radiation pulse is enough to kill every living thing inside of it, do you really think everything would survive without damage?

Also, all evidence we've seen of Harbinger controlling things has been through semi-organic bodies. The method to this was explained in Retribution. We see Sovereign do the same thing with Saren.

[/quote]

To the first part:  It must keep some systems intact, or why would TIM insist on using it?  

To the second:  And that precludes the idea that anything nonorganic in the base could  not be activated by a remote signal?  Seeker swarms?  Indoctrination devices?  Something as simple as an autodestruct?

If there were, Cerberus techs would be slaughtered, they're that careless.

[Dave of Canada]

Pulletlamer wrote...

And what makes you think that tech in the collector base can't "indoctrinate"?

Because indoctrination would be counter-productive to the Reapers on the Collector Base itself, the base has no interior defenses except for the soldiers contained within, none of the crew who've been there show any signs of indoctrination and a few more.

And even if there was indoctrination, they'd be indoctrinating Cerberus researchers and security personel who don't know the locations of TIM and other projects being run. They'd be useless for any large scale war, the information they provide is little and the indoctrination devices will eventually make them brain dead or machine-cultist crazy (as there's no reapers there to control the indoctrination signal).

Now assuming they aren't indoctrinated onboard the Collector Base facility and are indoctrinated in some other Cerberus laboratory... they've still got no knowledge of the locations of other Cerberus staff, they don't know where TIM is, they don't have anything extremely powerful (unless indoctrination suddenly means they fully understand the use of Collector tech) and pose little to no threat in the large scale war. This would probably be less effective as there would be less operatives than onboard the Collector Base.

[Someone With Mass]

ThePwener wrote...
You obviously did not read EVOLUTION and saw the Reaperfied Turian Zombie Monks experiment conducted with a recovered Reaper artifact similar to Object Rho and the minimal failsafes it had. They're no better then us.

And yet, Cerberus sends people into a Reaper, fully aware of the risks, when a few mechs could've done the same work. Sure, it'd have taken more time, but it'd be safer, and who knows, the Reaper could still be around if they had done it the smart way. 

[ThePwener]

marshalleck wrote...

If my Shepard could hand over access to the Alliance instead of TIM, he probably would.

You know the funny thing? even knowing ME3's twist, I would still hand over the Base to Cerberus. The Alliance is too flawed, the Council is too stupid and Cerberus were the only ones that believed me, gave me a ship and even bothered to look for Shepard's body.

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

You can see repeatedly throughout the series how much say a species has in decisions without a seat on the Council; very little to none. The Council is very much an oligarchy. What I do find odd about it is we never really see them disagreeing amongst themselves, though they surely must.

At any rate, giving them the base would lead to no less dominance than giving it to TIM. The only question really is just how much TIM would be willing to share with the Alliance and the rest of humanity. If my Shepard could hand over access to the Alliance instead of TIM, he probably would. But since I can't, TIM is the next best option for securing human presence in the galaxy now and into the future.

Elected oligarchy? Anyway, that's like saying that the UN is an oligarchy. I am sure that all races have sovereignty and can make their own decisions.

The Council doesn't really hand out orders to other races, they just to be the UN+the Galaxy Police.

Though I am all for redesigning the Council, as I said, they are not very good, but they aren't that dangerous either.

The UN and the Council aren't really very similar. Mainly because decisions the Council take actually have teeth.

And they do very much boss around other species. For example, some quarians were attempting to colonize a world some elcor decided they wanted. The Council threatened to bomb the quarians if they didn't evacuate. 

Seriously? Evicting a species which has no homeworld and no colonies under threats of violence, just so another species which has both can add another small colonial effort to their roster?

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 juillet 2011 - 08:01 .

[Phaedon]

[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
You mean give it to people who don't believe that the reapers exist, who will probably deny reality and say the collectors acted alone even with the base?[/quote]
Give it to them as what it is, a Collector Base. And let them scheme all they want when they realize the truth. But if they can produce anything you bet they will. They produced the Thanix Cannon thinking that Sovereign was a Geth Dreadnaught anyway.

[quote]
That doesn't change the fact that building a single reaper isn't going to make a difference against hundreds. There is also the fact that it would obvious be Cerberus alone building it. One thing they don't have is a lot of manpower.[/quote]
And therefore, giving the CB to Cerberus would make it harmless for the Reapers, but very harmful to everyone else, should you save the galaxy.

[quote]On the other hand the Alliance already has several fleets and the manpower to upgrade them much more rapidly than Cerberus cold even build a single reaper on its own.[/quote]
I don't care if the Alliance builds a dreadnaught if they remain allies with the aliens. But I doubt they can.

[quote]
Shepard is the one that threw that nonsensical accusation out there. I wouldn't be particularly inclined to address it either. TIM not responding really isn't proof of anything. We know he will do anything he believes necessary, except we also know that building a reaper is a waste of time.[/quote]
Yeah, but it is possible that he is considering it. I am just sayin'.



[quote]
I don't expect them to want to give it up, nor do I care. As long as they use what they gain to help fight the reapers I'm satisfied. I'll worry about what happens afterwards once I'm done dealing with the infinitely greater threat.[/quote]
What exactly could they gain, if even a single Reaper wouldn't be enough?

[quote]I never suggested genetic material created sentience. I considered the sentience and organic sacrifices two entirely different things.

Either way, my point is that I don't believe the organic components contribute in any way to the strength or look of the ship itself. That is simply part of the reapers' being and how they make more of themselves, it's not some secret to their power.[/quote]
It is possible however, that the organic component is so big, that for a Reaper to be usable without it, would require redesign. That's how spacecraft design works, you can't just strip parts and expect them to work the same.

[quote]
And yet you are assuming that Cerberus will not wait to use the superweapon to defend nobody but humans.
[/quote]
Because I think TIM is intelligent and not a cliche comic book villain. It's not like Shepard is the only one that can see the value of allies in a war.[/quote]
Why would TIM care about the other races? Why wouldn't he just spend all of his powers defending Earth? Or what if TIM waits until the aliens are weak enough before rescuing them?

[quote]
Except it isn't magic, no matter what it looks like. It can be understood given time and effort. We already know how Harbi- ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL
[/quote]
It definitely isn't magic, but we don't have enough time. We have yet to reproduce a mass relay, like the Protheans. Shouldn't Reapers be more complex?

[ThePwener]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ThePwener wrote...
You obviously did not read EVOLUTION and saw the Reaperfied Turian Zombie Monks experiment conducted with a recovered Reaper artifact similar to Object Rho and the minimal failsafes it had. They're no better then us.

And yet, Cerberus sends people into a Reaper, fully aware of the risks, when a few mechs could've done the same work. Sure, it'd have taken more time, but it'd be safer, and who knows, the Reaper could still be around if they had done it the smart way. 

Just goes to show. Nobody is better then anyone. When it comes down to it, everyone is the same.

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The rest of the galaxy seems to actually do something with the technology instead of just dicking around with it and hope for the best. Like Cerberus is constantly doing.

You're pretty hopefully about "the rest of the galaxy" when they're doing even less than Cerberus right now.

Anyhow, there is no point trying to argue that when we really don't have proof of what the "rest of the galaxy" might do.

I think Legion said something about taking a certain path blinds you to the alternatives.

If you were to ask Legion whether it is better to take that "certain path" or become extinct, I'm sure you could guess his answer.

I think that's exactly what Cerberus is doing. And trying to defeat the enemy by being dependent on their technology and act exactly like they predicted we would? Because of one man who was clearly influenced by their technology in a unpredictable and perhaps compromising way? Not a good move.

What is wrong with defeating the enemy by using their own technology?

I felt great when destroying the collector ship with the Thanix Cannon.

As for how influenced TIM is, that was entirely unknown in ME2. But so far TIM's actions have shown that he is quite adamant about fighting the reapers. If anything I think it's more likely the Council is indoctrinated than TIM. But blaming their ineptitude on indoctrination would be too easy.

We can build our own technology and tactics without being dependent on the Reapers.

That is an idealistic view if there ever was one.

Technology takes time and effort to develop. The galaxy certainly does not have time with the reapers breathing down its metaphorical neck.

The sensible thing to do is work with what you have, which is the reaper's own technology.

Now if you mean develop our own technology after the reapers are dead, then that is something else, and something that should be persued.

[Dave of Canada]

The Council plays nice until your species is not useful to them.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 juillet 2011 - 08:02 .

[mauro2222]

Too much tech for a galaxy that is not prepared for it, is like giving a gun to a ******-erectus, or the salarian mistake with the krogans. Even if they win the reapers war, they will be doomed at the end.

[SolidnOld]

I always destroy it.  I don't trust Cerberus.  Cerberus seems to screw up high level operations (Project Overlord, Cerberus Science team on Reaper IFF.)

[Phaedon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Council plays nice until your species is not useful to them.

Not a fact. And what Ashley says is true, if they had to kill their dog to survive, they would. Doesn't mean they don't adore their dog when it does it's :3 face. But the Council also has humans and is a basically a governmental people, they can't just go on a shopping/killing spree. 

All I am saying that I am all for social justice, but let's survive first and make sure that no one starts attacking a species just because they have the power to do so.

Modifié par Phaedon, 16 juillet 2011 - 08:05 .

[Dave of Canada]

mauro2222 wrote...

Too much tech for a galaxy that is not prepared for it, is like giving a gun to a ******-erectus, or the salarian mistake with the krogans. Even if they win the reapers war, they will be doomed at the end.

What do you think will happen to the Reaper corpses after the Reaper war? Do you think they'll magically disappear? People will master Reaper technology regardless of the Base, the only difference is the Base offers you the ability to study it before the events of ME3.

[Phaedon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Too much tech for a galaxy that is not prepared for it, is like giving a gun to a ******-erectus, or the salarian mistake with the krogans. Even if they win the reapers war, they will be doomed at the end.

What do you think will happen to the Reaper corpses after the Reaper war? Do you think they'll magically disappear? People will master Reaper technology regardless of the Base, the only difference is the Base offers you the ability to study it before the events of ME3.

And that the prohuman organization won't get the chance to dominate aliens.

[Dave of Canada]

Phaedon wrote...

Not a fact.

Tell that to the Batarians and Quarians.

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
The UN and the Council aren't really very similar. Mainly because decisions the Council take actually have teeth.

That's only because they are the galactic police as well.

And they do very much boss around other species. For example, some quarians were attempting to colonize a world some elcor decided they wanted. The Council threatened to bomb the quarians if they didn't evacuate.

If it is within the established elcor sphere of influence, then the quarians have no place there.

Seriously? Evicting a species which has no homeworld and no colonies under threats of violence, just so another species which has both can add another small colonial effort to their roster?

The galaxy  is pretty big, they could find a place, that's not what should you bad about the Council. It's that they didn't provide aid to Quarian refugees.

Modifié par Phaedon, 16 juillet 2011 - 08:08 .

[Dave of Canada]

Phaedon wrote...

And that the prohuman organization won't get the chance to dominate aliens.

How will 150 people who are not legally allowed to do much "dominate" aliens who'll be studying the very same tech?

[Bnol]

Phaedon wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
You mean give it to people who don't believe that the reapers exist, who will probably deny reality and say the collectors acted alone even with the base?

Give it to them as what it is, a Collector Base. And let them scheme all they want when they realize the truth. But if they can produce anything you bet they will. They produced the Thanix Cannon thinking that Sovereign was a Geth Dreadnaught anyway.

If you only give it to the Council as a Collector base, it would be a lot more dangerous than Cerberus in terms of indoctrination because adequate screening of knowledge would not be present.  I mean as reckless as Cerberus is in terms of safeguards within projects, the other cells don't know what is going on with one another. 

Modifié par Bnol, 16 juillet 2011 - 08:10 .