1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Potential allies, like who? Certainly not any of the galactic governments that deny the existence of the reapers.

Beyond that, I'm sure part of the reason he brought back Shepard was because Shepard can bridge the gaps that Cerberus can't.

The Alliance, the STG, the turian Hierarchy, and so on.

And just because some of them don't believe in the Reapers doesn't mean they aren't useful.

That's like being butthurt over the Council not believing in Shepard's actions, yet it was them that made it possible for him to even start.

[Inverness Moon]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

I don't think that's possible if you reveal the CB to all councilors at the same time. And red tape? The council likes power, they wouldn't just have the CB lying there.[/quote]They wouldn't just leave it lying there, but do you think everything would just go smoothly? No, they would present a united front or something then underneath be arguing about who gets what.
[quote]
There's nothing to hinder. Shepard has no use for the CB, better give it to a powerful unionship of races so that they can become more powerful before the attack.
[/quote]
Shepard has no use for the CB?



Shepard has a use for anything that can help the fight against the reapers.
[quote]
Shepards who destroy the base question that in the cutscene with TIM. Still, it's one race. We need to protect as many races as possible.
[/quote]
Yes, but one race with improved technology is better than none. The Alliance can help protect everyone even if Cerberus does not want to give out technology to the other races. Though they should of course.
[quote]
I only doubt that they can make a pseudo-Reaper out of this. They'd need to reverse engineer the tech. to make the ship controllable.
[/quote]
I only brought up the pseudo-Reaper thing because I would personally like one. It wasn't actually suggesting it was something that should be done in the game.

[quote]
The Cerberus isn't the Alliance. At least not anymore. I doubt Cerberus would hand the tech to the Alliance.

And again, at best they would create one Reaper. Just one Reaper wouldn't make a difference in the war, unless your enemy are the aliens.
[/quote]
Cerberus may not be the Alliance, but the Alliance is humanity's military might and representative in the galaxy. It's their fleets that defend Earth. Cerberus has plenty of fronts to distribute technology to the Alliance and help defend Earth in that manner.

It isn't realistic to suggest that Cerberus could make effective use of the technology all on their own, so I'm not going to suggest they'll even try.
[quote]
That seems like a silly question to ask. Here is another silly one: why would Shepard care about the other races?

The answer: because having allies in a war improves your chances of success.

Do you think TIM is blind to this? Do you think TIM believes allowing the reapers to pick off each race one at a time is a good idea? I don't.
[/quote]
Here's the flaw in that theory;
It assumes that the superweapon would help against the war, but not enough to not require the aliens.

Therefore, considering that the Citadel Fleet only took down Sovereign due to Shepard, more fleets couldn't take down more Reapers. Only the superweapon can do that.

So, if the superweapon is good enough, it will be harmful towards the Reapers without needing the assistance of aliens or the Alliance, or it will only be powerful enough to be harmful towards organic races, but not the Reapers.
[/quote]
What is all this about a superweapon? I never suggested a superweapon existed in any form.

I suggested that technology from the collector base could be used to improve the offensive and defensive power of all of the Alliance's ships so you don't have to throw entire fleets at reapers to kill them. Naturally, this isn't something Cerberus alone could make use of, they would have to give it to the Alliance. And I don't see how giving that technology to the Alliance would drive away their allies.
[quote]
I don't know. Harbinger controlled the Collector General, there is no reason for there to actually be blueprints laying around.
[/quote]
We don't know, but we'll never know if we blow it all up.

[ThePwener]

Phaedon wrote...

Even if you kill TIM in the second mission of the game, months will have passed with him controlling the base. 

That's hardly any time to reverse engineer the most advanced tech in the galaxy. Otherwise, we'd be fighting 2 story high Titans (the mechs) that shoot thanix lasers out of it's arms.

[Dave of Canada]

ThePwener wrote...

Because it's just a game. And it's only been a few months since the SM. That's hardly any time to reverse engineer anything.

They've been reverse engineering everything you've been coming across during the team gathering and sending it to you (assuming gameplay time doesn't = timeline, I'd say a month or so spent reverse engineering?), I don't see why giving them blueprints and a treasure trove of tech would change anything.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 juillet 2011 - 08:57 .

[Ryzaki]

marshalleck wrote...
Enlightened self-interest. That's all I'm asking for. Help yourself by helping others. Help the quarians settle a new world (or diplomatically arrange for them to resettle Rannoch) and reap the benefits of their AI and engineering expertise. Establish diplomatic relations with the geth and help resolve the heretic problem to secure our colonies from geth attack in the traverse. Help Wrex with his efforts in building a viable, sustainable krogan civilization, rather than bombing them from orbit and repeatedly sterilizing them, keeping them in a perpetual dark age. Etc. etc. 

The Council just let problems fester until the pus sac is so swollen it bursts, spewing filth all over the galaxy. They are beyond incompetent. They are, aside from the Reapers themselves, the single greatest threat to galactic civilization. And I am not exaggerating my opinion of them. 

You can't really blame them for not helping Wrex. (not to mention that would make Wrex look weak. Krogan don't look kindly on alien involvement). The geth weren't thought to be peaceful and ever ship that entered that area never came back. (Let's not mention the Geth don't even want to be bothered with organics they just want to be left the hell alone). The Quarians have such a hardon for war they refuse to try to be peaceful with the Geth even now. Alot of that is nice in theory in practice however...

The Quarians should've been given a homeland though. Hopefully far away from the other organics just in case the Geth decided to finish the job.  

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Are you serious? The only reason we got the Thanix Canon was because of Garrus.

They don't believe in the reapers, they're not going to be sharing anything until it is possibly too late.

And yet, they have made almost more progress than those who do believe in the Reapers. 

Oh, the irony.

By the way, considering how ME3 starts, I don't think it's too late until they're all dead.

[ThePwener]

Dave of Canada wrote...

They've been reverse engineering everything you've been coming across during the team gathering and sending it to you (assuming gameplay time doesn't = timeline, I'd say a month or so spent reverse engineering?), I don't see why giving them blueprints and a treasure trove of tech would change anything.

I don't understand your post. Are you with me, or against me?

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The Alliance, the STG, the turian Hierarchy, and so on.

And just because some of them don't believe in the Reapers doesn't mean they aren't useful.

That's like being butthurt over the Council not believing in Shepard's actions, yet it was them that made it possible for him to even start.

And when exactly have TIM's actions specifically targetted any of them and thrown them away?

Cerberus has people everywhere in the Alliance, they're in the bag whether they like it or not.

Cerberus has never bothered with the STG, but what they did do was assassinate the pope so he would be replaced by someone who was friendlier with the salarians about the whole genophage thing.

They also haven't moved against the Turian Hierarchy either, if anything he saved their asses in Evolution. And then there was the original Normandy project which Cerberus initiated. That improved relations between the Alliance and the Hierarchy at the same time as it allowed Cerberus to get information on turian ship building.

[marshalleck]

Ryzaki wrote...

You can't really blame them for not helping Wrex. (not to mention that would make Wrex look weak. Krogan don't look kindly on alien involvement). The geth weren't thought to be peaceful and ever ship that entered that area never came back. (Let's not mention the Geth don't even want to be bothered with organics they just want to be left the hell alone). The Quarians have such a hardon for war they refuse to try to be peaceful with the Geth even now. Alot of that is nice in theory in practice however...

The Quarians should've been given a homeland though. Hopefully far away from the other organics just in case the Geth decided to finish the job.  

The only reason the heretic geth were a problem at all is because at the outbreak of the Morning War, the Council moved their fleets to the edge of quarian space, but didn't engage. They sat by and watched as billions of quarians were butchered, and then they continued to sit by and watch as the geth retreated behind the Perseus Veil. 

One can only wonder how ME1 may have played out differently had the Council decided to act in favor of the quarians who were being massacred by automatons, rather than letting those automatons replicate and build a fleet of warships and infantry beyond the prying eyes of the rest of the galaxy. We'll never know, because Council strategy was "it doesn't affect us (being defined as: salarian, turian, asari) right now in the immediate moment, so we don't care and we won't do anything."

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 juillet 2011 - 09:06 .

[Phaedon]

Inverness Moon wrote...
They wouldn't just leave it lying there, but do you think everything would just go smoothly? No, they would present a united front or something then underneath be arguing about who gets what.

Not when the Reapers arrive. 

Shepard has no use for the CB?



Shepard has a use for anything that can help the fight against the reapers.

I meant that Shepard isn't a scientist. S/He has to give it to someone else. I can see Mordin doing some stuff with the base, but he would still need help to research and mass produce stuff. That is, if Mordin survives.

Yes, but one race with improved technology is better than none. The Alliance can help protect everyone even if Cerberus does not want to give out technology to the other races. Though they should of course.

Why would Cerberus share the tech to the Alliance? The Council on the other hand would share the tech once the time comes. Cerberus wants their own domination, not the Alliance's.

I only brought up the pseudo-Reaper thing because I would personally like one. It wasn't actually suggesting it was something that should be done in the game.

Okay, but then anything that could come out of the base would be less useful, no?

Cerberus may not be the Alliance, but the Alliance is humanity's military might and representative in the galaxy. It's their fleets that defend Earth. Cerberus has plenty of fronts to distribute technology to the Alliance and help defend Earth in that manner.

I suppose that that could work, though not necessarily. I don't think that Cerberus would care if all of the Alliance high ranking officers died. They could take the helm instead then. And the millions of humans that would die in the process? Not a problem. TIM believes in the "greater good" with Cerberus all over humanity.

What is all this about a superweapon? I never suggested a superweapon existed in any form.

I suggested that technology from the collector base could be used to improve the offensive and defensive power of all of the Alliance's ships so you don't have to throw entire fleets at reapers to kill them. Naturally, this isn't something Cerberus alone could make use of, they would have to give it to the Alliance. And I don't see how giving that technology to the Alliance would drive away their allies.

So, what exactly could this tech be? Reaper weaknesses? Reaper weapons, armour? The HR didn't seem to be in a state for the last two to be developed...

We don't know, but we'll never know if we blow it all up.

Or if we give it to Cerberus, considering that they appear to have gone rogue.

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

And yet, they have made almost more progress than those who do believe in the Reapers. 

The Thanix Cannon was not essential to the mission at all, EDI, the SR2, and Shepard himself were.

[Dave of Canada]

ThePwener wrote...

I don't understand your post. Are you with me, or against me?

Against, was saying they were reverse engineering almost every piece of Collector technology they've been sent by Shepard while still recruiting for the suicide mission. With the Collector Base and the blueprints, it should prove itself not much harder to reverse engineer a lot of the tech when they've got a few months to prepare.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 juillet 2011 - 09:05 .

[Bnol]

Phaedon wrote...
I don't think that's possible if you reveal the CB to all councilors at the same time. And red tape? The council likes power, they wouldn't just have the CB lying there.

There's nothing to hinder. Shepard has no use for the CB, better give it to a powerful unionship of races so that they can become more powerful before the attack.

The Council doesn't believe in the reapers, thus they won't believe in indoctrination.  It would be much more dangerous to give it to them, than to an organization that knows the actual danger.  The reapers would then have indoctrinated sleeper agents of all the species.

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...
The Thanix Cannon was not essential to the mission at all, EDI, the SR2, and Shepard himself were.

The Collectors are dead. Gone. A thing of the past.

[Ryzaki]

marshalleck wrote...
The only reason the geth are a problem now are because the Council move their fleets to the edge of quarian space, but didn't engage. They sat by and watched as billions of quarians were butchered, and then they continued to sit by and watch as the geth retreated behind the Perseus Veil. 

One can only wonder how ME1 may have played out differently had the Council decided to act in favor of the quarians who were being massacred by automatons, rather than letting those automatons replicate and build a fleet of warships and infantry beyond the prying eyes of the rest of the galaxy.

Frankly the Quarians should've been butchered. They knew what they were doing and screwed with it anyway. I sure and hell wouldn't throw my people's lives away for someone else's idiocy. I tell you why something's not a good idea and you go and do it anyway? I'm not bailing your ass out. 

I would've probably would've blown the entire planet to bits. Quarians included. 

Who knows. Maybe Saren would've just had to settle for indoctrinating masses of organics and would've had to work far more secretly (get someone to destroy the Beacon without getting caught). If not for the Geth Sovereign might've won because no one was expecting it. Or maybe he would've had to be even more obvious. Can't really tell. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2011 - 09:08 .

[marshalleck]

Ryzaki wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
The only reason the geth are a problem now are because the Council move their fleets to the edge of quarian space, but didn't engage. They sat by and watched as billions of quarians were butchered, and then they continued to sit by and watch as the geth retreated behind the Perseus Veil. 

One can only wonder how ME1 may have played out differently had the Council decided to act in favor of the quarians who were being massacred by automatons, rather than letting those automatons replicate and build a fleet of warships and infantry beyond the prying eyes of the rest of the galaxy.

Frankly the Quarians should've been butchered. They knew what they were doing and screwed with it anyway. I sure and hell wouldn't throw my people's lives away for someone else's idiocy. I tell you why something's not a good idea and you go and do it anyway? I'm not bailing your ass out. 

And that's all well and dandy I suppose, until that little problem you chose to ignore comes calling for you next, with 300 years worth of military buildup. 

Are you honestly incapable of seeing how the Council's lack of decisive action led directly into Sovereign being able to recruit a ready-made army for its war against advanced organic life?

Cause and effect. Politics and history don't occur in a vacuum, and it doesn't only exist in textbooks or online wiki pages. It occurs every day around all of us. The actions people take, or don't take, shape what the future brings. The Council consistently fails to understand this, and thus are unfit for leadership.

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 juillet 2011 - 09:13 .

[ThePwener]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Against, was saying they were reverse engineering almost every piece of Collector technology they've been sent by Shepard while still recruiting for the suicide mission. With the Collector Base and the blueprints, it should prove itself not much harder to reverse engineer a lot of the tech when they've got a few months to prepare.

You have no idea how complex the tech is. It's supposed to be the most advanced in existance, and you thik Cerberus can reverse the tech in a few months? I even doubt that a few years would be enough. We don't know when the Turians completed the Thanix Cannons during the two year span.

[Ryzaki]

marshalleck wrote...
And that's all well and dandy I suppose, until that little problem you chose to ignore comes calling for you next, with 300 years worth of military buildup. 

Are you honestly incapable of seeing how the Council's lack of decisive action led directly into Sovereign being able to recruit a ready-made army for its war against advanced organic life?

Which is why I would've nuked the planet. Gets rid off all the problems in one swell swoop. 

Um no actually I'm not. Why you snipped the part where I suggested nuking the planet I don't know. The geth should've taken care of. That doesn't mean I would've let the Quarians become anything other than pariah. 

Cause and effect. Politics and history don't occur in a vacuum, and it doesn't only exist in textbooks or online wiki pages. It occurs every day around all of us. The actions people take, or don't take, shape what the future brings. The Council consistently fails to understand this, and thus are unfit for leadership.

And the alliance and Cerberus completely understand that? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2011 - 09:15 .

[Someone With Mass]

Ryzaki wrote...

Which is why I would'v nuked the planet. Gets rid off all the problems in one swell swoop. 

Um no actually I'm not. Why you snipped the part where I suggested nuking the planet I don't know. 

Geth don't live on the planets.

They live in space stations around asteroids.

And they only have a handful of them on the planets to clean them up.

[Ryzaki]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Geth don't live on the planets.

They live in space stations around asteroids.

And they only have a handful of them on the planets to clean them up.

When the Quarians were being butchered the Geth were on the planet seeing as how the war started while the Geth were working and asked the wrong question. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2011 - 09:16 .

[Phaedon]

Bnol wrote...
The Council doesn't believe in the reapers, thus they won't believe in indoctrination.  It would be much more dangerous to give it to them, than to an organization that knows the actual danger.  The reapers would then have indoctrinated sleeper agents of all the species.

How can you protect yourself from indoctrination?

[Bnol]

ThePwener wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Against, was saying they were reverse engineering almost every piece of Collector technology they've been sent by Shepard while still recruiting for the suicide mission. With the Collector Base and the blueprints, it should prove itself not much harder to reverse engineer a lot of the tech when they've got a few months to prepare.

You have no idea how complex the tech is. It's supposed to be the most advanced in existance, and you thik Cerberus can reverse the tech in a few months? I even doubt that a few years would be enough. We don't know when the Turians completed the Thanix Cannons during the two year span.

You don't have to reverse engineer a particular piece of technology to see potential weakness and flaws to exploit.  We see that when dealing with the seeker swarms.  Mordin was able to in a short perior of time find at least a temporary workaround without fully knowing how to reproduce the seekers.  Any knowledge of that kind can help.

[marshalleck]

Ryzaki wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
And that's all well and dandy I suppose, until that little problem you chose to ignore comes calling for you next, with 300 years worth of military buildup. 

Are you honestly incapable of seeing how the Council's lack of decisive action led directly into Sovereign being able to recruit a ready-made army for its war against advanced organic life?

Which is why I would've nuked the planet. Gets rid off all the problems in one swell swoop. 

Um no actually I'm not. Why you snipped the part where I suggested nuking the planet I don't know. The geth should've taken care of. That doesn't mean I would've let the Quarians become anything other than pariah. 

Cause and effect. Politics and history don't occur in a vacuum, and it doesn't only exist in textbooks or online wiki pages. It occurs every day around all of us. The actions people take, or don't take, shape what the future brings. The Council consistently fails to understand this, and thus are unfit for leadership.

And the alliance and Cerberus completely understand that? 

Cerberus certainly do. They were the first to act when humans started disappearing. The Alliance did eventually pull its head out of its behind and realize they had a problem on their hands. The Council? Typical "human concerns are not our problem" handwashing. Yet again.

Modifié par marshalleck, 16 juillet 2011 - 09:19 .

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

Bnol wrote...
The Council doesn't believe in the reapers, thus they won't believe in indoctrination.  It would be much more dangerous to give it to them, than to an organization that knows the actual danger.  The reapers would then have indoctrinated sleeper agents of all the species.

How can you protect yourself from indoctrination?

You won't know until you study it and determine how it works.

[Ryzaki]

marshalleck wrote... Cerberus certainly do. They were the first to act when humans started disappearing. The Alliance did eventually pull its head out of its behind and realize they had a problem on their hands.

Right. One action means Cerberus completely understands cause and effect. This will go nowhere.