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I'll Be the First to Complain: What was the point in destroying the Collector Base?

Débuté par Dean_the_Young , juil. 15 2011 12:59

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1939 réponses à ce sujet

#926
Someone With Mass
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 10:23

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Right, but with the ship powered down there isn't anything you can do to the propulsion systems. It'd be like trying to hack into a computer that is turned off.


How about just having the Normandy fire at it? A few shots from the GARDIAN lasers ought to do it.

And yet again, doing at least something more to halt their advance or kill them outright other than just having EDI hack their computers and just stand there like drooling idiots would've been great.

#927
Bnol
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 10:28

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Right, but with the ship powered down there isn't anything you can do to the propulsion systems. It'd be like trying to hack into a computer that is turned off.


How about just having the Normandy fire at it? A few shots from the GARDIAN lasers ought to do it.

And yet again, doing at least something more to halt their advance or kill them outright other than just having EDI hack their computers and just stand there like drooling idiots would've been great.


You don't just shoot at a disabled ship for no reason as you could potentially destroy what you are looking to find.  So once you boarded the ship you wanted the Normandy to fire on you and potentially kill you, instead of giving you a chance to escape?  

#928
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 10:48

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ThePwener wrote...

People talk with ignorance when defending the destruction of the Collector Base. They say Reaper tech is bad and uncontrollable, yet we have the Thanix Cannon, and that was only a destroyed Reaper. Imagine the treasure box that the Base is. Then they say it's Cerberus, yet we know next to nothing about they're operations and they're so called "incompetence" only derives from 1 failed experiment (ME1 creatures) and an AI gone rogue (Project Overlord) that was consecutevely fixed by them as well (Shepard, when he was still an AFFILIATE of Cerberus). Those are only 1 and a half projects out of 13 known cells doing stuff.


Read the Mass Effect books. Cerberus has done many more experiments, and almost all of them failed miserably.

Besides, what makes you think the Collector base has anything useful? I highly doubt the collectors have anyting useful at their base except for the tech to create a reaper, which we don't need because we don't want to create our own reaper. We also don't need the tech to create a reaper to find out how they are build because we already get the schematics of the anatomy of a reaper, whether we blow the base up or keep it. So we already have the schematics, what else do we need that we might possibly find at the base? Nothing.

The only "useful" tech I think it would have is the tech that creates indoctrination. That said, TIM is the LAST MAN in the entire universe I would want to give the tech to indoctrinate people. Indoctrination tech won't help us against the reapers but it will help TIM to secure Cerberus' position for galactic dominance, which is what he's really after. Do you honestly wish to give TIM a tool that would help him on his campaign for galactic dominance? Do you really want to give TIM the ability to indoctrinate people?


- Here is another reason to blow up the base:

The reapers are at our doorstep. They're here within months, maybe weeks. They're close. We don't have enough time to get anything useful out of the collector base. By the time we found useful tech in the base, the reapers are already in our galaxy. We don't have time to really get anything useful and mass-produce it. It's a waste of time.
Beside, we all know Cerberus. They won't share the Collector base with anyone else. Only Cerberus will be allowed and able to research the Collector base. What do you think Cerberus alone can accomplish in mere months/weeks in that base? Hmmmm... nothing.

So, we can better spend the time we have left on upgrading our own technology and thinking of tactics on how we can tactically defeat the reapers without the need of a deus-ex machina that we hope to find in the Collector base. Better focus on what we already know and try to get something useful out of that.


- Another reason to blow up the base:

If the reapers return to the Milky Way galaxy and the take the Omega 4 Relay and they'll find their base still in tact. Don't you think the reapers would be happy? The can simply kill every research team that's currently researching the base and continue where they left in ME2.

Keeping the base around, means that the reapers can continue building their new (human) reaper as soon as they enter our galaxy, without a delay. Destroying the base at least secures that. When the base is destroyed, the reapers will have to build a new one from scratch. That will set them back and it will make sure that they can't continue harvesting humans for a new reaper right away.


- Now, another reason why it's better to blow up the base:

Think back about WW2. Do you think you could find anything useful regarding Na-zi German technology in their execution camps? If I wanted to intel on the technological advancements of the Na-zi's, the execution camps would be the LAST place I would search.

Now, we know that in WW2, Germany did brutal genetic experiments on the prisoners of the execution camps in the hope to create super soldiers. They hoped to find some sort of medicine that could turn an average human into a super-soldier.
Now we all know they never succeeded in creating their super-soldiers, but WHAT IF their experiments actually paid off?

Now imagine, you're leading an Allies squad and your squad takes over an German execution camp. You free it's prisoners and then you find this genetic research. You see the Germans where close to creating super-soldiers, but their research was not completely done yet. What would you do?

Would you salvage their research and continue it yourself so you could create your own super-soldiers, at the cost of many innocent lifes? Would you use their research even though it's a complete abomination and many innocent victims died for that research? Would you continue the experiments for yourself so you could create your own super-soldiers regardless of the fact that it has already costed many innocent lifes and it will cost many more lifes if you continue these cruel experiments?

Or would you do the noble thing and simply destroy what is left of the research and experiments?

Modifié par Luc0s, 16 juillet 2011 - 11:01 .

#929
Someone With Mass
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:04

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Bnol wrote...
You don't just shoot at a disabled ship for no reason as you could potentially destroy what you are looking to find.  So once you boarded the ship you wanted the Normandy to fire on you and potentially kill you, instead of giving you a chance to escape?  


The Normandy didn't explode when it got hit right in the thruster by a particle beam.

And I wanted them to shoot before we drop in. Besides, GARDIAN lasers are something like this.

#930
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Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:08

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ThePwener wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Uh-huh. So we're just going to pretend like the little incident with the Reaper IFF never happened?


Collector Base =/= Derelict reaper = 404

The Collector Base isn't a Reaper. There is no known indoctrination devices aboard it.


Wrong again. Reapers are build in the Collector base. That means that whatever the reapers use for indoctrination (nanites or something) is also present at the Collector base.


What you basically just said is: "Car Factory =/= Delerict Car = 404. The Car Factory isn't a Car. There are no known wheels and tires in the factory."

See how your statement fails?

#931
lietk12
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:08

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ThePwener wrote...

People talk with ignorance when defending the destruction of the Collector Base. They say Reaper tech is bad and uncontrollable, yet we have the Thanix Cannon, and that was only a destroyed Reaper. Imagine the treasure box that the Base is. Then they say it's Cerberus, yet we know next to nothing about they're operations and they're so called "incompetence" only derives from 1 failed experiment (ME1 creatures) and an AI gone rogue (Project Overlord) that was consecutevely fixed by them as well (Shepard, when he was still an AFFILIATE of Cerberus). Those are only 1 and a half projects out of 13 known cells doing stuff.


And Pragia, where they managed to abduct a bunch of children and then raise them to riot against the Cerberus facility there.
Oh, and Wilson kind of blew up the facility holding Project Lazarus and almost managed to kill Shepard because nobody was able to realize that he was a SB agent (even Aria knew one of her guards was a SB agent!).
And then there were the scientists Cerberus sent onto the derelict Reaper who were indoctrinated (duh).
Oh, and then knowledge of their rachni research got leaked to Eclipse, who then captured a Cerberus agent.
And then in "Mass Effect: Retribution", TIM decided to implant one of his operatives with Reaper tech on a base which was broken into, allowing the now-Reaper-puppet operative to escape.

Modifié par lietk12, 16 juillet 2011 - 11:10 .

#932
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:09

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Someone With Mass wrote...

The Normandy didn't explode when it got hit right in the thruster by a particle beam.

And I wanted them to shoot before we drop in. Besides, GARDIAN lasers are something like this.


The Normandy is not the Collector ship and in any case I remember the Normandy being blown apart. Part of that could have been the result of the propulsion systems being destroyed.

Firing on the Collector vessel before you board to stop it from fleeing is not a bad idea on the surface. However without knowing exactly how their propulsion systems workd then you could easily cause a large explosion that could destroy the ship and make it impossible to data-mine.

The entire reason for the operation was to reach that console and access the ship's computer.

#933
Someone With Mass
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:20

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Saphra Deden wrote...

The Normandy is not the Collector ship and in any case I remember the Normandy being blown apart. Part of that could have been the result of the propulsion systems being destroyed.

Firing on the Collector vessel before you board to stop it from fleeing is not a bad idea on the surface. However without knowing exactly how their propulsion systems workd then you could easily cause a large explosion that could destroy the ship and make it impossible to data-mine.

The entire reason for the operation was to reach that console and access the ship's computer.


If the fuel is that volatile, I don't think it has any place in a spaceship.

And the Normandy didn't explode on the first hit. Want to know why? Because if the Alliance/turians had any brains when they built it, they made it so the engines won't cause a massive explosion the second there's a fire in there.

Because that would be a serious flaw in its design.

I don't think the Collector ship is any different when it comes to that.

#934
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Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:24

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ThePwener wrote...

Fine, don't keep it. Unlike yor ending, my Humanity won't be pushed down under the Turians. The Turians didn't lose no time to reverse engineer Sovereign into weaponry they didn't want to share with anyone else for obvious reasons.

They wouldn't think twice of giving the base to a Turian version of TIM (Saren).


This comment explains everything. Now I finally see how you reason. I finally see now where you're comming from. You're mistrusting your allies. You're like TIM, you want human dominance. You still see the Turians as enemies, even 29 years after the First Contact war.

This explains everything. Now I finally fully understand your obsession with keeping the base and desperatly searching for new tech based on the reaper tech. This isn't about the reapers, this is about human dominance. You're exactly like TIM.

But for that very same reason, I blow up the base. I don't want human dominance. I don't want a cold war against the Turians. I don't see the other alien species such as the Turians as enemies, they are allies. We should not get involved into an arms race against the Turians, we should unify the galaxy and fight the reapers are one. To unify the galaxy, we need to show the other species that humans can be trusted. Working with Cerberus is not the best way to gain the trust of the other species. Giving a reaper-building base in-tact to TIM is even a worse idea if you want to unify the galaxy.

But this is what Paragon v.s Renegade is all about though. Paragon = Unify the galaxy. Renegade = Human dominance.

#935
Bnol
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:24

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Bnol wrote...
You don't just shoot at a disabled ship for no reason as you could potentially destroy what you are looking to find.  So once you boarded the ship you wanted the Normandy to fire on you and potentially kill you, instead of giving you a chance to escape?  


The Normandy didn't explode when it got hit right in the thruster by a particle beam.

And I wanted them to shoot before we drop in. Besides, GARDIAN lasers are something like this.


You are trying to gain all the information you can on the Collectors.  Why would you risk the potential of damaging/destroying that information?  I mean you don't know if there are some sort of self-destruct protocol that you could activate by destroying the thrusters.  I mean you know that Praetorians have self-destruct mechanisms when defeated, the Collector Ship might have the same.  Too much of a risk, better to just send a small scout team to investigate.  Persuant to Sci-fi troupes the captain of the ship has to join in.

Edit: Also GARDIAN lasers are very short-range weapons, which would make the danger of some sort of trap/self-destruct even worse.

Modifié par Bnol, 16 juillet 2011 - 11:39 .

#936
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:26

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Someone With Mass wrote...

If the fuel is that volatile, I don't think it has any place in a spaceship.


It's volatility is what makes it useful as a fuel. Fuels are reactive substances, the reactions producing energy. Things which don't react aren't useful as fuel for that reason.

Someone With Mass wrote...

And the Normandy didn't explode on the first hit. Want to know why? Because if the Alliance/turians had any brains when they built it, they made it so the engines won't cause a massive explosion the second there's a fire in there.


You are making a lot of assumptions here.

#937
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:27

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Luc0s wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Fine, don't keep it. Unlike yor ending, my Humanity won't be pushed down under the Turians. The Turians didn't lose no time to reverse engineer Sovereign into weaponry they didn't want to share with anyone else for obvious reasons.

They wouldn't think twice of giving the base to a Turian version of TIM (Saren).


This comment explains everything. Now I finally see how you reason. I finally see now where you're comming from. You're mistrusting your allies. You're like TIM, you want human dominance. You still see the Turians as enemies, even 29 years after the First Contact war.

This explains everything. Now I finally fully understand your obsession with keeping the base and desperatly searching for new tech based on the reaper tech. This isn't about the reapers, this is about human dominance. You're exactly like TIM.


A long while back I posed a question for all my fellow Renegades: If instead of working for Cerberus in ME2 you were instead working for a similar organization only composed of an alien species (say turians or batarians), would you still save the base?

#938
GodWood
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:30

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Saphra Deden wrote...
If instead of working for Cerberus in ME2 you were instead working for a similar organization only composed of an alien species (say turians or batarians), would you still save the base?

Yup

#939
King Gigglez
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:30

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Saphra Deden wrote...
A long while back I posed a question for all my fellow Renegades: If instead of working for Cerberus in ME2 you were instead working for a similar organization only composed of an alien species (say turians or batarians), would you still save the base?

Yes I would, unless it were Batarians... If it were Turians I would gladely give them the base, they seem a LOT more trustworthy then Cerberus or Batarians. Safest bet would be Salarians and Asari though

#940
Someone With Mass
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:31

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Saphra Deden wrote...

You are making a lot of assumptions here.


Yes, I assume that the spaceships have designs that aren't compromising the entire ship the second there's an accident.

But I guess that would make too much sense.

#941
Bad King
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:32

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Fine, don't keep it. Unlike yor ending, my Humanity won't be pushed down under the Turians. The Turians didn't lose no time to reverse engineer Sovereign into weaponry they didn't want to share with anyone else for obvious reasons.

They wouldn't think twice of giving the base to a Turian version of TIM (Saren).


This comment explains everything. Now I finally see how you reason. I finally see now where you're comming from. You're mistrusting your allies. You're like TIM, you want human dominance. You still see the Turians as enemies, even 29 years after the First Contact war.

This explains everything. Now I finally fully understand your obsession with keeping the base and desperatly searching for new tech based on the reaper tech. This isn't about the reapers, this is about human dominance. You're exactly like TIM.


A long while back I posed a question for all my fellow Renegades: If instead of working for Cerberus in ME2 you were instead working for a similar organization only composed of an alien species (say turians or batarians), would you still save the base?


Interesting, can you post a link to the topic?

#942
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:32

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Yes, I assume that the spaceships have designs that aren't compromising the entire ship the second there's an accident.

But I guess that would make too much sense.


Like I said, what makes a fuel useful is its volatility. When your ship is being attacked by an enemy there is only so much you can plan for and only so much you can control.

#943
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Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:33

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Bad King wrote...

Interesting, can you post a link to the topic?


No, it was months ago and there'd be no point because I just posed the question here. It's not a complex one.

#944
Bnol
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:35

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Saphra Deden wrote...
A long while back I posed a question for all my fellow Renegades: If instead of working for Cerberus in ME2 you were instead working for a similar organization only composed of an alien species (say turians or batarians), would you still save the base?


No to batarians as they have shown obvious and continued hostility towards humans and no ties at all with the rest of the galactic community.  Yes to any of the other races.  The potential knowledge/tech from the base is what was important in my decision.  Also, if I was working with one of the other races, they would know of indoctrination and the reapers, and thus that danger would be mitigated.

#945
Bad King
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:38

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Interesting, can you post a link to the topic?


No, it was months ago and there'd be no point because I just posed the question here. It's not a complex one.


Have it your way, I assumed there would be a poll.

#946
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:39

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Bnol wrote...

No to batarians as they have shown obvious and continued hostility towards humans and no ties at all with the rest of the galactic community.  Yes to any of the other races.  The potential knowledge/tech from the base is what was important in my decision.  Also, if I was working with one of the other races, they would know of indoctrination and the reapers, and thus that danger would be mitigated.


I think you are looking at this the wrong. Imagine TIM, but instead of being human he is batarian. He doesn't work for the batarian government. He tells you that he believes you about the Reapers and that he thinks they're targeting humans. He is upfront with you that his goals are ultimately the safety, preservation, and advancement of the batarian species. However he also insists that he'll do whatever it takes to stop the Reapers and that he won't wait for them to make the first move. Even if they're targeting humanity he tells you he knows that sooner or later they'll turn to his people, so he wants to stop them now.

At the end he makes the same speech. You've won a single victory but you're still at war. Being in command means making hard choices.

Is an empowered batarian race really worth sabotaging our best chance to crack open Reaper technology and meet them on even ground?

Remember, once the war is over everyone, including humanity, will have access to Reaper tech anyway.

#947
Someone With Mass
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:42

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Point is, I don't think the entire Collector ship would explode if we disable its thrusters by shooting it with a highly accurate laser. Or just make one of the components needed to achieve the level of thrust the ship needs leak out.

Or, as I've said before, neutralize the whole thing with a radiation pulse and work in peace.

#948
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Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:45

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@Saphra Deden:

May I ask where you're coming from? I mean, what did you do in your main ME playthrough? Did you destroy the Collector base or hand it over to TIM? Because I'm a little confused now where you're coming from.

#949
DRSH
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:48

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Giant space explosion.

That is all.

This is what I wanted to say. 
BIG RED EXPLOSION! None of that greenish blue **** :lol:.

#950
Bnol
Posté 16 juillet 2011 - 11:57

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Point is, I don't think the entire Collector ship would explode if we disable its thrusters by shooting it with a highly accurate laser. Or just make one of the components needed to achieve the level of thrust the ship needs leak out.

Or, as I've said before, neutralize the whole thing with a radiation pulse and work in peace.


Just re-posting this:
You are trying to gain all the information you can on the Collectors.  Why would you risk the potential of   damaging/destroying that information?  I mean you don't know if there are some sort of self-destruct protocol that  you could activate by destroying the thrusters.  I mean you know that Praetorians have self-destruct mechanisms  when defeated, the Collector Ship might have the same.  Too much of a risk, better to just send a small scout team to investigate.  Persuant to Sci-fi troupes the captain of the ship has to join in.

Edit: Also GARDIAN lasers are very short-range  weapons, which would make the danger of some sort of trap/self-destruct  even worse.

In terms of the radiation pulse, you don't know what will happen if you do that either.  You also could be killing thousands of people who may still be on the ship.

Modifié par Bnol, 16 juillet 2011 - 11:59 .

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